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Discussion: Question about your "LEAGUE" rules

Posted Discussion
Dec. 26, 2011
17Black
Men's 50
217 posts
Question about your "LEAGUE" rules
Guys this is just a general question.

To "me" when I go to a sanctioned tournament, be it SSUSA--SPA or other, the rules are etched in stone and it is what it is.

I live in the Cleveland area (Northern Ohio) and there are only a handful of leagues in the area.

Each and every one of the leagues I know about has their own "internal rules" and several of the leagues continue to morph and change/add/delete rules each and every year.

Some use screens to protect pitchers, some don't. Some don't allow Mikens or other composite bats, others do. Some allow composite bats but THEN decided to dumb down the ball to a basically "rolled up duct tape" to keep guys from getting hurt. (which makes no sense if you allow the bats??)

Some have time limits, some don't. Some have a 5 run per inning rule, some have 7 per inning, some have unlimited per inning.

I've seen the ball "live" if you hit it up the middle (or) called an out. (I've also seen multiple variations of what is considered an out up the middle and still don't get it as different umps call it differently???)

I see different sized mats in different association and league play too. Some leagues have 1-1 counts, others don't.

Is it "just me" or would it be too easy to just allign your league with one softball association or another and just adopt those rules whatever they may be???

I am just curious-------LEAGUES around the country you guys play in-----how modified are rules? Or do you play the same rules you play in tournaments???
Dec. 26, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
Gary, Barberton seems to essentially use SSUSA rules. I can't think offhand of any differences, except the mat there I believe is a bit larger. But everything else seems pretty much the same.
Dec. 26, 2011
ShaneV
Men's 55
381 posts
Probably the #1 difference is who offers the league? That will determine who writes the rules.

City/County Parks & Recreation Departments will offer what sells to a degree, they are responsible to their management but in many cases they may not have the incentives to really make the whole operation work. Many surely optimize the use of their facilities and run great leagues with the best local officials. Many more are just trudging along collecting government pay checks and employing the local monopoly of officials. Too many probably have been doing it too long and don't really care anymore, and there's no real competition to keep them motivated. Writing and adjusting rules for different leagues can take considerable time and effort.

Private (for profit) operations seem to be rare at least in our area. They have to listen to their customers and pay their bills and make a profit. They have complete control over what is offered, what organization to align with, if any, and where to get officials. They control the rules as well but it has to sell.

Personally I believe the best option is for players and officials to run their own non-profit leages. First of all they have to be able to secure facilities. If you can't get decent facilities you struggle. You can choose your national organization if you have the officials or can get good local officials to register. Much work involved but you have control. It can be done. It is also the least cost option as long as you have the willing volunteers to run it.

In Lacey we run an SSUSA league, we use their rules and we modify what we want based on what we think is best for the special circumstances that exist with leagues. We play 5on5on5 early in the year then full teams Summer and Fall.

There is a local league playing modified coed, 7-men 3-women, NSA rules, and they've been around for many years. Their league rules are more than 10 pages, including eligibility rules, many special rules for safety and many more that are already in the NSA rule book, and so should not be there at all.

It seems any governing body (think congress) has a tendancy to continue to add more rules (laws) rather than endeavor to refine the existing rules.

ShaneV
Dec. 27, 2011
bullet
Men's 55
130 posts
To 17Black, do you play in the 50 & over league in Maple Heights
Dec. 27, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
Paul, I believe he plays in Painesville. But the league he was refering to that uses the screen is Maple.
Dec. 27, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3935 posts
we use ASA rules the whole way,no deviation...next year we are going to the 52 ball and hopefully senior bats,since ASA allows them now.i like it that way so as not have to keep changing out bats depending on where i play.only change now will be for the kids i play with.
Dec. 27, 2011
JBTexas
Men's 60
259 posts
San Antonio Senior league uses SSUSA rules with a few minor local rules ,IE, we sue the pitcher protection rule, one up on homers, other then that same as torunament rules. we use the same core ball as SSUSA. Four division 50(thursday night), 60 and 65(saturday morning) and 70+(Tuesday morning).
Dec. 27, 2011
17Black
Men's 50
217 posts
bullet and Gary19

Yes, I have been playing in Painesville but I am re-organizing a new team that is exploring all options, and heavily leaning towards Maple Hts as our #1 potentially being #1 on our wish list.

Of course we would have to be excepted in to Maple, and we are hoping because they currently have an odd number of teams, that we "might be" an attractive alternative?

We are going to start out this year playing 50AAA Tournaments and see where the chips fall.

You guys know what leagues are available in Greater Cleveland/Akron and I need to bring an I-Pad to keep track of the different rules in every location/league because they are all unique and different.

Painesville allows composits bats (98% Mikens)but went to a dead ball, experimented with a screen but now just call outs if hit inbetween the pichers rubber lines up the middle. They also play with 11 guys in the field which is good to get guys involved but I am not a fan of it.

Several guys are leaving because the facility, although having some money thrown at upgrades, is in need of a lot of work. And the same four teams have been playing over and over, and over and OVER again for years-----We wind up playing each team 8-9 times each in the season, and then again play some more against each other in the playoffs---just time for a change, see different teams/players.

Travel could be an issue since a lot of guys live between 25/60 miles (as far as Ashtabula) away but Maple plays double headers are one night a week so that cuts down one day of driving. Painesville and Mayfield both play twice a week single evening games, and Painesville has no lights.
Dec. 27, 2011
Ho
226 posts
Gary K:

Forget about the Akron/Barberton League to take your team to. The Silver League is a 500-member League 45-and-up with Five Leagues broken into age divisions (eight teams in the majority of the divsvions with six-or-seven in the other two). It is also a DRAFT LEAGUE...teams are redrafted each year, so no way could you bring a team in intact.

There are a few Off-the-wall house rules in the 75+ division which are different from tournament ball but works well in the house league.

Also the home-run-rule is a one-up in the league.

You may also want to check the Golden (?) League in Niles/Youngstown.

Looking forward to seeing your tournament team again in June.

If you have any questions on the Silver League..give me a call...you have my number.

Ho
Dec. 27, 2011
garyheifner
349 posts
In one of the 50 and over leagues I play in, they pretty much adopted the SSUSA senior rules. The only bat banned is the U2
because of 275' fences. However, the U-Trip bats hit the restricted flight balls out just as well. They also use the 1-1 count which almost always ensures 7 innings in the 1 hour time limit. The guy in charge of the league has a tryout with new players to rate their ability. He tries to spread out the new guys to different teams so that one team is not overloaded with tournament players or all the younger talent. The league was super competitive last year.

Another league I play in (don't know why) uses the SSUSA rules and ASA bats and a round thing they call a softball??? Outfielders play around 150' and rarely get burned and scoring runs is a precious and rare happening.

I also play in a Dlb Header pick up league. We use ALL the SSUSA rules and equipment except we have a 4 run cap per inning except for the Open 7th.

P.S. All 3 allow/use the 11th defender as a middle infielder.




Dec. 27, 2011
5ToolsinOhio
Men's 50
160 posts
Accepted into Maple? They would do cartwheels for some new teams...senior bats/screen for pitcher. Contact Bill Brantch

http://www.maple-softball.allwebco.com/
Dec. 28, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
Can't believe I am going to say this, but I agree with Tool. Maple I have to believe would be very happy for another team. They have had the same four forever it seems. Picked up a fifth team last season that was awful.

Don't worry about an odd number of teams there, they had an odd number last season and made the scheduling work. Nice park, nice fields, too bad about the screen but they insist on live balls so that is a compromise so no pitcher gets killed. Just warn your pithcer about the back field early in the season, the sun sets right in his eyes.
Dec. 28, 2011
bullet
Men's 55
130 posts
17black, could you e-mail me at topluap@aol.com,I might be looking for a team in Maple heights to play on next year
Dec. 29, 2011
17Black
Men's 50
217 posts
5ToolsinOhio---------Thanks, already in contact with Bill in Maple------waiting for their first meeting after 1st of the year. I got in touch with them sometime before Thanksgiving.

Gary19---from what I understand all five teams are supposed to be coming back so we could make it six and even up the schedule. Won't know for sure for about a month or so.

HO-----Yes, I (we) will be seeing you in June for sure in one way, shape, form. Great Tournament last year when we played in Barberton. Pencil us in for 50AAA and send me info-----you have my e-mail and phone # already as you know.

bullet------we have invitations out to some players and we want all responses back from those invitees by Mid January, so if a few guys decline I may be looking you up.

Again, this will be a team that plays "together" league games and tournaments. Will only pick up guys for tourneys if we wind up short handed due to injury or conflict of schedule and want to avoid it as much as possible. I just played on a team for 5 years (from age 48-52) that made that formula work.
Dec. 30, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
Gary, that is interesting. They were 0-23 and were outscored by an average of 20-8. Just couldn't have been any fun for them at all. Though I suppose they could be picking up some guys, but just have a long way to go.
Dec. 30, 2011
17Black
Men's 50
217 posts
Gary19: Yeah, I noticed that on their web-site, but the guys who e-mailed me after I inquired about the league in November, sounded pretty confident that team was coming back in 2012.

They also seemed to have the largest roster (when I browsed the league stats on-line) in the league over the course of the season, so they must have been adding/deleting players to try to find a fit?

I don't know???
Dec. 30, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
I grew up in Maple, played there for probably 10 years, and know guys on all of the other teams, but the only familiar name on that one is my son's old JV baseball coach at Shaker.

Either they kept trying to get the guys that would click, or as the losing continued guys just kept quitting. Hard to say.
Dec. 31, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3935 posts
g-19,so what they lost all their games,they showed up and played,wouldn't you have,or are you only a front runner.they prolly had as much fun thru the course of the year then you did.i guess in your mind they should just quit...that sounds familiar doesn't it......
Dec. 31, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
Wow, are you waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off base.

I think I was just having a conversation with someone about a potential league that I happen to know something about to try and help him out.

If they had any fun at 0-23, much less as much as I did winning some games, that is so wrong on so many levels.

Why are you so resistant to admitting they keep score and standings for a reason?

Dec. 31, 2011
steve65
Men's 65
175 posts
Gary you are so negative and so wrong here--I played in a church league for the past couple of yesra and we have not won any games yet we all laugh and joke shake each others hands when the game is over and pray together--it is fun just being together---you must really have a horrible life with all the negativity yow spread on here--everyone please pray for Gary----
Dec. 31, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
Steve, two things:

1) Why are scores and standings kept?

2) You might be a very nice guy, but please make sure you never play on a team I am on. Laughing and joking during constant losing is just not acceptable.
Dec. 31, 2011
steve65
Men's 65
175 posts
Gary to respond to you
1)scores and records?? I was not in the obituary this morning that puts me up 1 zip i have my health-- me 2 zip the sun is shining and the world looks beautiful ahhh me 3 zip---I heard my grandsons laugh another score---
2) play on a team with you--you would love to have me on your team I personally refuse to lose so I give it everything I possibly can--but if we lose I find something good in the comraderie and look forward to next time---
try just once gettin gup in the morning and being happy to be able to take a deep breath --then thank God for another day
Dec. 31, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
Nothing against God, but I will wake up tomorrow morning because of how well I take care of myself.

If I don't wake up, should I blame Him?
Dec. 31, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1952 posts
Gary, Gary, Gary. You have really lost your perspective on the game if you would be, as you inferred, unable to play and be happy on a losing team. I have many time played on makeup teams with friends just because they are friends and even though we might have gone 2-12 or something did not take away from my enjoyment of playing with them. I feel sorry for people to whom it is win or nothing ALL of the time. While I am as competitive as they come in major tournament competition, I have learned that you allow your teammates and yourself to be human and make mistakes. If I make a mistake-miss a cutoff man, or make an error-or pop up, I know immediately I goofed, and resolve not to make that mistake again. I expect my teammates do the same, especially at the higher levels. They don't need me in their face. And I enjoy playing the game at all times.
Personally, I thank God every day for waking up and having a great life and the health to still play this game. Are you going to blame yourself if you wake up dead?
Dec. 31, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
Mark, I can't lose what apparently I must never have had, as I don't see how anyone can be happy losing. Suicidal? Of course not. But happy, my gosh no.

Sure this can be tempered by the type and purpose of the team. A "fun" team of friends, or a company picnic, or a church team is different than others, but there is still no happiness in losing. Maybe just a different level of acceptance.

I am not sure I ever mentioned getting in anyone's face, actually pretty sure I didn't. But to be happy after losing, just can't happen. At least not for me. See, I would rather go 1 for 5 and win than 4 for 5 and lose, but again just me.

All depends. If I did something stupid, then probably.
Jan. 1, 2012
Webbie25
Men's 60
1952 posts
Gary, I just got going a bit-I didn't accuse you of getting in anyone's face. But Steve did say it WAS a church team.
And, I do disagree on another point. You can be happy after losing. In 2009 when our Desperado team came from nowhere to finish third in Phoenix worlds, you bet we were happy and proud we made that showing after basically that same team went 1-5, 2-5, 2-5 the previous three years in 50AAA. We only had 5 guys under 55 and a few over 60. We were happy to still be able to compete and happy we did that well. I do agree with you on one point, I would rather go 1-5 and win than 4-5 and lose.
Jan. 1, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
Understood. But that is a different kind of losing. Maybe it was just not winning. Third in that situation is very good. Much different than trying to find some silver lining, or even thinking there is one, in losing literally for an entire season.
Jan. 1, 2012
Webbie25
Men's 60
1952 posts
If you are playing with good friends and you go in knowing the situation, then there is a 'silver lining'-the camaraderie which is why you are playing in the first place. It seems pretty obvious you never 'allowed' yourself to be on a team like that. I think you missed an important lesson in life that way.
Jan. 1, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
I never said I never played with friends. Fortunately, when I was younger (college-age), my friends and I were good enough to win more than we lost. Not all the time, certainly, but enough to satisfy both needs.

Then I went on to play with teams where the only emphasis was winning. Again not all the time, but a lot. And I became friends, sometimes good friends, with some of those guys. So I got to have the best of both worlds again.

I am not sure what the lesson would have been. That losing is accepted? Tolerated? No one wins all the time, but to lose all the time just can't be fun. It just can't. Maybe I just believe too much in Herm Edwards.
Jan. 1, 2012
Webbie25
Men's 60
1952 posts
You just confirmed my statement.
Jan. 1, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
Which statement, and what confirmation?
Jan. 1, 2012
garyheifner
349 posts
1st time I have logged on in 2012. Guess what Gary 19, you have hyjacked another question. What does the last 8 or 10 posts/responses have to do with the original question of league rules?????
Jan. 2, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
Gary, read mad dog's one and only post, you dope! The definition of "hijacked".
Jan. 2, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
Sorry, make that sad pup's second post that does the hijacking. He actually did stay on-point with his first.
Jan. 2, 2012
mad dog
Men's 60
3935 posts
so the 11 posts before my second one,that have nothing to do with what rules we use at our parks are ok..........oh mostly by you and your other ohio players......like you i just responded to same dumb crap you throw out there.....
Jan. 2, 2012
17Black
Men's 50
217 posts
Guys! Gentlemen! Ladies! Fellow Softballers!

Holy Moly!!!!!!!!!

My goodness!!!

A safe and happy New Year to All!!!
Jan. 2, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
pup, bullet took this off the rules, not that we minded, and 17Black and I just went with it from there. Then YOU, as usual, made it personal. Just try to go back and follow the bouncing ball.

You have something against "ohio players"?
Jan. 2, 2012
garyheifner
349 posts
Gary 19 before calling me a DOPE (which is a violation of one of the 4 rules for this site) please explain to me what ANY of your nonsense above has to do with anything regarding the original question of what are your senior league rules.
Jan. 3, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
I am just never sure about old guys with extremely thin skin.

Why not ask sad pup? He made it personal, I was still relevant. He clearly wasn't, and did what he always does. Heck, ask bullet since he want "off topic" first asking about Maple Heights.

17Black responded to me, and responded to bullet, so since he asked the original question and apparently had no problems with our posts, why do you? Where is your deed to this thread?
Jan. 3, 2012
steve65
Men's 65
175 posts
you know Gary19 it is really irrelavant who goes off topic first--Garys question to you concerned you calling him a dope--you are the one tha tis always calling people names lets see you called me an sob mad dog is sad pup gary and others are dope so I propose we all refer to you as "envious idiot" what is it stopping you from playing tournaments?? money??
ability?? you realize these "thin skinned" old guys actually fought to give idiots like you the right to spout off on here--you should pay homage to them instead of calling them names
Jan. 3, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
Well, he did make a pretty dopey post that prompted me to say that.

By the way, mad dog started calling me "dippity" LONG before I went with sad pup, but again that is ignored.

Envious of what? That you guys are willing to spend a lot of money for not a lot of softball? Hardly! Money is easy to spend, spending it wisely takes a bit more.

No, I have plenty of money. I just like to get a reasonable payback for my spending, and small, repetitive brackets just doesn't do it for me.

Pay homage? You act like each and every one is a veteran. I doubt that. Thanks to those who are, but my guess is it is less than half the guys on here. So save the patriotism card for something more appropriate.

Jan. 3, 2012
5ToolsinOhio
Men's 50
160 posts
Small brackets are usually in the major/major plus divisions that is what i saw in my first year of senior ball.
Jan. 3, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
That is what I saw my first time as well. The most recent it was also pretty common in AAA.

Jan. 3, 2012
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
You are talking about local qualifiers right?
If you look at every major tourney held by SSUSA last year the AAA divisions drew far more then any of the local qualifiers.
However the local qualifiers are very good as tune ups for the larger tourneys.

Jan. 3, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
Not sure about Tool, but yes I was.

I understand that, but by definition 90+% of all tournaments run should fall in the "local" or "qualifier" categories. And those just seem pretty small.

Tune-ups are great, I agree, but you can probably only "tune" so many times.
Jan. 3, 2012
5ToolsinOhio
Men's 50
160 posts
I really don't know to much about the senior gig yet...but i just come to play doesn't matter if there is 4 teams or 20 teams. I can't control what the directors do, if your that type you don't have to play right Grinch?
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