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Discussion: A thought....

Posted Discussion
Jan. 5, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
A thought....
I realize Senior Softball covers a wide range of ages and ability levels. So what if there are rule modifications based on that?

I don't see why 50+ needs the same rules as 70+, or Major+ as AA. I just can't imagine that many 50+ teams having as many running issues as 70+, so why can't the CR rules be different?

Just like if you are a Major+ player who cannot run, are you really an elite player? Elite hitter, perhaps, elite player when you can only "run" to first base? Probably not.

So tailor the rules by age group/classification. I don't see why 50+ Major+ has to have the same rules as 70+ AA, they really play two totally different levels of game.
Jan. 5, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4249 posts
I heard they are working on a new rule book the only requirement for any age or rating to play is a Doctors note with specifics on if he can run all the bases or just to one of the others. Running any further that that which is stated in the note, ie prescription, will be cause for ejection from game. Must be specific for each age and rating any players may or could be allowed to play.
Secondly of batter is capable of swing a senior bat of if it needs to be a lessor efficient bat. After all, one would not like a torn muscle ot something happening.
Thirdly, the ball used will be a 52 cor sock. It may be slightly worn, but no holes or tears in it. It may also travel the full distance up to and over the fence, but it may not go up the middle.
Fourth, No complaints, it is what it is. It will only change when the editors choose do do so.
Fifth, Please attend the tournaments, we just hired a mew person and need to be sure we can do so along with attending all the world wide tournaments we arrange.
So come & enjoy the best game in town, even if it is too far or costly. You love it and we appreciate it.
Have a great 2012.
Jan. 5, 2012
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
For someone championing the issue of rules change, Gary, you sure want to change a lot of them.

I would venture a guess that not many Major Plus players consider themselves "Elite", and may even be somewhat embarassed by your analogy.
Most M+ players have skills that allow them to play at that higher level, as do the Major players over the AAA and so on.

You are severely out of touch with Senior "Tournament Softball" if thats what you think would work for those of us who actually do play it.

Scott you forgot to mention the small amount of teams turning out for tourneys. =)
Jan. 5, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
If the Major+ guys aren't elite, then who is? So there are no elite guys in Senior softball?

No, I am not necessarily wanting to change a lot, but if they are changed anyway why not make the changes age and level appropriate?

You "tournament guys" can pound your chests all you want, you are not special just because you pay a lot to play. Tournament softball is not that radical, revolutionary, or special. And it doesn't take all that much playing in them to see that.

Again, why do 50+ Major+ guys needs the same rules as 70+ AA, they are playing a different game in many ways.

Jan. 5, 2012
stick8
1238 posts
E4/E6 I think Gary19 makes a valid point. Looking at the dynamics of a 50+ team as opposed to a 70+ team it's pretty safe to presume the 70 team would require more courtesy runners than the 50 team. It wouldn't necessarily be a bad idea to examine some different cr rules based on age classification.
I'd also like to point out the way the current CR rule is instead of only being allowed to run once an inning for someone why not simplify it and make it anyone at anytime?
Jan. 5, 2012
steve65
Men's 65
175 posts
by having different rules for different age/skill levels the entire organization would become so large that it could not be controled. Do states have different driving laws for different age people?? as for CRs the only things changed should be the designation from Courtesy Runner to Pinch Runner then there could be no argument as pinch running is strategic--a part of the game---
Jan. 5, 2012
stick8
1238 posts
Unfortunately there are many cases of older people who don't drive, not because of written laws restricting them but because of physical conditions & handicaps they've developed that prevent them from safely operating a motor vehicle. It's a similar concept in senior softball. Guys that may have been able to run at 50 may have acquired conditions, normal body wear and tear or have sustained injuries that prevent them from running as they get older. It's an interesting debate and one that likely wouldn't result in any change that would satisfy everyone. Any change would bring out new skeptics.
Jan. 5, 2012
Omar Khayyam
958 posts
There are already age-appropriate rules that make sense. For example, in our association, a 70+ team is allowed 11 defenders while those younger stick with 10. Also, our association prohibits playing under the lights (at least for scheduled tournament games) for those teams over 60. In my league play, no player under 75 can use a composite bat and you must be 70 to use a double wall. We also allow players to run through on bases to avoid danger to aging knees from rapid deceleration. Same reason that the double home plate was instituted—to avoid injury to older and slower-healing players. In a SPA tournament last year, I was surprised by the rule that allows a rest period for older teams before back-to-back games.

Maybe it is time to revisit the courtesy runner rule and make some distinctions depending upon the age of the team.
Jan. 5, 2012
crusher
Men's 70
380 posts
Gary19, you are impressive how you can drag people into
a discussion on things already covered 100 times and
things you know nothing about.

YOU ARE THE GREATEST, to bad no one wants you to play
tournament ball with them.

50+ rules are different than 70+.
If you were capable of playing softball you would have known this.

Again, You really do have a talent, I would like to use that in sales, if I could I would take up sales.

Have a good 2012.
Jan. 5, 2012
Stretch001
2 posts
Our San Diego Senior Softball league recently adopted the "last out" rule for courtesy runners. For the most part, it has served itself well. There are no limits on the number of times a CR is used - you just keep going further back on the outs as you need to.

There are only two players in our 70-odd plus membership who have complained about it. One was the manager who abused it and substituted a "rabbit" at will as part of a strategy, and the other was the rabbit.

Nobody else.
Jan. 5, 2012
Webbie25
Men's 60
1931 posts
Verrrrrry Interesting, Gary-you apparently can see the need for rule changes between the 50's and the 70's , but you cannot see the same reason for rules changes between the 50's and the kids. Verrrrrry Interesting!! But verrrrry inconsistent! With apologies to Arte Johnson!!
Jan. 5, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
stick, some of these guys just aren't very open-minded, or bright, or both.

Webbie, in my experience playing with and against both "kids" and guys in their 70s in the past few years, 50s are much more similar physically to the kids than 70s are to 50s. Just common sense. The rate of aging is much faster from 50 to 70 than it is from 30 to 50. Sure there are exceptions, but as a general observation that is what I have seen.

Consequently 50s rules can, and maybe should, be much closer to the rules the kids still use than what the 70s need.
Jan. 5, 2012
Webbie25
Men's 60
1931 posts
Gary, it is all a matter of perspective and also considering that we all age at a different rate. I've seen guys at 50 that can hardly move, and guys near 70 that can outrun me yet. I agree that 50 is closer to the kids, but what about 54? That is still playing 50's and a lot of guys are falling off by then.What about 60-wow, there is a big difference from 50 to 60. Your perspective does take a hard line toward no changes. From the blogs on here, most of us are a little more forgiving. Where does your 'hard line' kick in?
Jan. 5, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
Hence why I said "Sure there are exceptions".

I don't think most of the changes that have been made are for age reasons. Nothing age related about the mat, or the second home plate, or run limits. I don't see what they have to do with age of the players.

But if changes are going to be kept in senior ball, then lets acknowledge that not all "seniors are the same". 70+ is just much different than 50+, and Major+ from AA for that matter.
Jan. 5, 2012
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Gary there are exceptions to everything we live with as there are generalities.
My comment about M+ players not being elite is a general statement, there are some elite players as there are elite teams. Those that win consistently, of which there arent more then 4 or 5.
The rest are very good.

No one said anything about being better, superior, or "special" because we play tournament ball, just that we who do play it on a regular basis are more in touch with what is going on with tournament ball. "Generally"........
I will admit, you do come up with many novel approaches to the rules and how they should or could apply to Senior ball as a whole. Some good, others not so much. Of course this is just my opinion.
Jan. 5, 2012
garyheifner
334 posts
Wrong wrong wrong as usual. Tournament players are special. It is not church league or park district. Tournament players condition, workout and practice at a very high level and should pound on their chests. We compete against top players from all over the USA. I remember the early days when there were a lot of pot bellied guys huffing and puffing around the bases. They are gone. 1000's of great athletes out there who play. For some, their knees and hips have worn out but they still go for it. Your notion that 50s players are close to the young guys is wrong again. I pitched recently for 2 years in a U-Trip league of young guns to help a friend out. I have no fear in senior ball, I was terrifed in this league. The ball was a blur up the middle.

You stated above that "all seniors are not the same", yet you ripped our rules of getting runs or an 11th player when for example a AA team might have to play a major team in a qualifer.

The current rules try to ensure that all can experience some level of success. And, then you rip the second home plate. So you want 70 years old men crashing into each other at home?
Jan. 5, 2012
ill41
Men's 60
11 posts
Garyheifner,thats why I gave up pitching at 61 years old.Thats why I only pitch with you guys on Tuesday morning.As with collisions at home plate,they happen all the time with the kids.We had a game this year where a guy tried to bowl over our catcher.The guy was knocked cold for ten minutes.I see many ambulances coming down to the softball complex because of home plate collisions.
Jan. 5, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
See E4, someone is saying tournament players are special.

gary, let's stipulate not all tournament players are equal. Let's not compare Major or Major+ players, who while I am not sure they qualify as "special" they at least compete at a high level, to AA. Just aren't the same, nor should they be, but not the same at all.

Also, to help you comprehend, I said "50s are much more similar physically to the kids than 70s are to 50s. Clearly not saying they are the same, or in general real close, but that for me a guy 50ish is much closer to 30ish than to 70ish. And you might have been terified, but trust me so would a 70 year old be pitching against 50s, probalby moreso. Aging occurs faster from 50 to 70 than from 30 to 50, in most cases from what I have observed. Though again, there are exceptions.

By that statement I meant the difference is age-based, as in 70 year olds who are "senior" players are not the same as 50 year olds who are also considered "seniors". But within any particular age group, all the guys put their pants on one leg at a time and to take runs for doing nothing is just prideless.

Where is it said that everyone is entitled to "some level of success"? Senior softball is the most Socialistic sport I have ever seen. Reminds me way too much of politically-correct tball.

Why should they crash? The runner gets the baseline, at that age the catcher should know enough not to be in it. That is the WRONG way to play the position. But again, this could be one of those rules that varies by age group. For the 50s, no reason for it.
Jan. 5, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
I usually get up to a local park once, maybe twice a week, to watch the kids play. Can't remember the last time I saw a collision at home. Do they ever happen? I suppose. "all the time"? Absolutely not. "many ambulances"? Certainly not anywhere I watch games. Just doesn't happen.

Jan. 5, 2012
cyborg45
71 posts
Don't know about the senior rules, since this will be my first year. But in Utrip, the runner has to avoid the the collision by either sliding or dodging out of the way. If a collision occurs, and it deemed the runner ran the catcher over, it is an automatic ejection.







Jan. 5, 2012
crusher
Men's 70
380 posts
little g19, I do pity you.
Jan. 5, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
cyborg, I believe those are the rules at all levels of baseball and softball, with the exception of MLB and the minors.

"crusher", save the pity for your family. What did they do wrong to get you?

Jan. 5, 2012
garyheifner
334 posts
Senior softball is dedicated to giving everyone an opportunity to have some success. Terry and the guys evaluate every team so each will play in the correct division/ability. In our 65 division a bunch of AAs were moved up to AAA this year. It left a small field of AAs. As I watched several of the AA games in Phoenix, it was obvious that they were legit AAs. Teams that would not have made it to the last day before the moves were battling for the title on day 4. Good for them.
Jan. 6, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
So they became competitive only through attrition? And that is something to be proud of?

I just don't get it.
Jan. 6, 2012
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
And its apparent you never will Gary.
Jan. 6, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
Thankfully I probably won't. And if I ever did my family would laugh me out of my own home.
Jan. 6, 2012
stick8
1238 posts
Cyborg45 your half right. It is true if a runner crashes into a catcher it's an out and an ejection but there is no written rule that stipulates runners have to slide or dodge out of the way.
Jan. 6, 2012
stick8
1238 posts
Gary19 if the purpose of having rules meetings at the annual convention is to make the game better surly visiting the cr rule would merit consideration, that would be amongst some others too.
Jan. 6, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
stick, I would think, assuming that is actually the purpose and it is not just window-dressing to appease the easily-appeased customers.
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