http://www.mikensports.com/

 
SIGN IN:   Password     »Sign up

Message board   »Message Board home    »Sign-in or register to get started

Online now: 2 members: hector, mc4softball; 70 anonymous
Change topic:

Discussion: Bat testing-exit speed

Posted Discussion
Jan. 5, 2012
garyheifner
349 posts
Bat testing-exit speed
As a few continue to rant about senior bats, help me out. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Several of you do extensive bat research. I think, a few years ago, someone posted that batted balls exit speed with a radar gun showed that the U2 exit speed (on average)was only 3 MPH faster than USSSA approved bats. Do any of you long time posters remember this??????
Jan. 6, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
If the U2s aren't appreciably better, why the insistence on being able to use them? So you are saying seniors are just dumb like that? Shame on you!
Jan. 6, 2012
Webbie25
Men's 60
1956 posts
Gary (Both)-I have had 2 miken freaks that were every bit as hot as my U2's when they got broken in. I also had a couple that did not get nearly as hot, and those are the two that keep me from buying a Freak, for use in SSUSA, that might last longer. My competitive side will just not allow me to use a lesser bat, especially in a major tournament. That 3 mph can be the difference between a hit and a sno-cone catch, or the difference between a 298 fly out and a 305 HR. There is also perception issues for a lot of guys-if they do not BELIEVE it is a better bat, it won't be for them. They will just not swing it with as much confidence.
Jan. 6, 2012
5ToolsinOhio
Men's 50
160 posts
The insistence is... because the companies make them. I hope you make a doctors appointment for the repeating problem you are having Grinch19.
Jan. 6, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Now tell the truth. You honestly think that made any sense? Any at all?
Jan. 6, 2012
steve65
Men's 65
175 posts
I believe this thread is proof that many paople just post their thoughts and do not bother to read the post to which they pretend to be responding to----the original question in this thread was and is--do any of you long time posters remember this??
what is so difficult to read in that statement??
I have read the 3mph comment several times but I do not remember the first time it was mentioned. There GaryHeifner I answered your question to the best of my ability.
In the process of reading this thread and responding I think I see why Gary19 does not play tournament softball. Since he cannot focus long enough to answer a simple yes/no question how could he ever play a game that takes an hour or so??? hahaha
Jan. 6, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Steve, it was clear (to some of us) that his real intent was to make the point that the special bats are really not much different than the Utrip bats, so why cry/whine/moan about them.

He had little if any interest in asking a question, but rather was using that as the vehicle to make some point he thinks he has. Again, pretty obvious to those with comprehension skills.

I know a lot of what I just wrote probably went over your head, if you need help understanding please let me know.
Jan. 6, 2012
steve65
Men's 65
175 posts
Gary19 I understand you perfectly--even an idiot can understand a self serving fool that hides behind a keyboard because his ability does not allow him on the field to prove or disprove his critics. there have been numerous posts as to your refusal to play tournament senior softball--there are those of us that play at every opportunity and enjoy the game as it is--you just sit with your keyboard and dream of your intelligence and your ability yet are afraid to prove it on the field
Jan. 6, 2012
garyheifner
349 posts
Webbie--you might be correct that our bats might add only 2 to 8 or 10 feet with that x-tra 3 MPH. Steve and guys thanks for answering the question. My purpose was that if it is that close, the rants about senior bats are irrelevant.

Since several posters are very concerned about $$$, I find it interesting that you can get a U2, seniors best bat, for between $179 and $199 delivered and many ASA and USSSA bats are well into the $200s up to past past #300s.
Jan. 6, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Steve, since you want to go to the ability card, I assume you are playing Major+, or at the very least Major.

Read Gary's latest post Steve, and you can apologize to me once you realize my interpretation of his real purpose was 100% correct.

I ask again Gary, if there is a negligible difference, why do guys insist on the legality of the special bats?
Jan. 6, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4315 posts
Poster may have been one of two, Stoneman or Tattooball akaTrumpball back then. Both offered or do for the latter excellent info. Stoneman was barred I believe.
I remember it vaguely.
Bottom line is really, if it's legal, you can use it. Quit complaining.
Jan. 6, 2012
5ToolsinOhio
Men's 50
160 posts
Some of us insist on driving a newer car...while some still drive there pinto with manual windows and a am radio. Just don't get it, the companies make these bats for a reason and its are fault for using them...hurry hurry make that doctors appointment.LAST WORDII.
Jan. 6, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
"LAST WORD"???

Tool, try to be original.

I drive a newer car too, but I don't insist on one that is banned for use by every other group (yea, I know, there probably isn't one but you began the analogy).
Jan. 6, 2012
steve65
Men's 65
175 posts
Gary19 once again you attack and miss the point entirely--as I staed in one of my first posts I am playing my second year of senior softball after not playing for 40 years---point is I am playing--you on th eother hand are talking period--in regards to your major major plus comment--do you even understand how the system works?? it seems most (I cannot speak for all) teams playing 65 division do not want to be above AA--when they get raised up they automatically appeal---another point is because a player is on a major plus aa or aaa does not mena that individual player is at that skill level--the team is at that level period--I have never heard of players being rated on an individual basis---
garyheifner do you pitch for the gray sox??
Jan. 6, 2012
garyheifner
349 posts
I don't insist on legality of any of the bats. I want the best bat I can get for the lowest possible price. Currently that is the U2. That includes all associations.

I don't see any rants about the new era of tennis rackets and the way a serve can hit 130 MPH plus.

Don't hear any rants about the new era of golf clubs and pros hitting drives 300 + routinely or 9 irons 200 +. Non pros improving their game by a wide margin. I am a very good golfer. Bought a new set clubs last year. My drives went from 220s average to the 250s area with a few approaching the 300 area. Something wrong with that--NO

Don't hear any rants about the new era of hunting bows or firearms.

Don't hear any rants about the new era of cars with longer performing engines and drivetrains and warranties.

The only bat that was and should have been banned was the original Gray Miken. It was insane.

Our sport has evolved also, to the better. Deal with it!!!
Jan. 6, 2012
Pricer
Men's 50
620 posts
Gary, all the equipment you mentioned above does not put the opposition at risk, with the exception of the hunted! I don't want to get into what my thoughts on this subject is because it has been beaten to death. But your analogy just insulted our intelligence!
Jan. 6, 2012
5ToolsinOhio
Men's 50
160 posts
Grinch, I added II to Last word lol. In some eyes and or groups imported cars are banned.
Jan. 6, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Steve, admittedly I don't know the inner workings of 65+, but I do know that to strive to play as low as possible is just bizarre to me.

Gary, can you tell me which rackets are only legal for some ages and not others? Same with the clubs. Seriously, please answer that so we are talking apples to applies.

And you must not follow golf closely, many have commented about the equipment outperforming the current courses.

And let's not get into hunting, what a pathetic lot. =(

Jan. 6, 2012
garyheifner
349 posts
My post clearly points out that in todays world everything evolves and some can't deal with that. I also rememer that some of the techinical guys on this site posted in the past that ASA, who started all this bat flap, did admit later that their testing was flawed. My grandson, who lives across the street, stays at my house 1 or 2 nights a week. At breakfast, I make him eggs or oatmeal along with cut up apples and oranges. The apples and oranges go together quite nicely.

Pricer, the only player in danger is the pitcher. Very few seniors hit the middle on purpose. In all the games I pitched last year only a handful were hit at me. Also, when I release and back up 5-6 quick steps, I actually assume a defensive stance. It is not a good idea to stand there with your hands at your side in any age, level or association in the game of softball since a softball is actually harder than a baseball. The danger at that position was far greater in my USSSA days when you released and had to run back towards 2nd. If you didn't show you could defend the middle, everyone hit it there.

Would love to continue this discussion but must head out to the Health Club for my daily weight and cardio workout as I continue to prepare for the TOC in a month down in Lakeland. Florida so I can be exploited along with 1000s of other men and women who will be there.
Jan. 6, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
So, as fully expected, no direct response to the questioning of your poor analogies to golf and tennis. What groups can use certan rackets and clubs while others cannot?

Sounds like the TOC is not exactly an exclusive group if "1000s" of "champions" will be attending.
Jan. 6, 2012
crusher
Men's 70
388 posts
GaryHeifner - great on the cardio and weight workout.
Just read something about that Monday. 8-10 min
warmup, then do a 4 min cardio on the cycle. 20 seconds
at maxspeed, rest for 10 seconds (slow peddle), repeat,
do 5 times a week. 6 week results are suppost to be great.
I have tried this the last 3 days and it is tough.
It seems to really work the complete upper leg.
Jan. 6, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4315 posts
Copied post He would know the "math" on this.
Dec. 19, 2005
bashbro1
Men's 60
266 posts
A baseball study was undertaken a few years back that took into consideration these three hitting parameters: Bat-Speed, Batted-Ball-Speed, & the Batís mass (i.e. its weight on earth). The study showed that the batted ball speed curve essentially flattens out between 32oz and 41oz bats remaining almost constant @ about 110mph. At the same time understand that the batterís swing speed decreases in swinging the 32oz to 41oz bat; but the mass of the bat makes up the difference in power curve. Plugging values into the kinetic energy equation,,, KineticEnergy=1.5Mass x Bat*Velocity squared proves the point. This study was done for baseball with a 90mph+ fastball coming @ you and most batterís would certainly would opt out for using the 32oz bat since you can swing it faster and with the same power curve as the 41oz! Applying this study to slo-pitch would not be as significant obviously, as we have more time to wind up and swing a heavier bat. However, it does raise questions about those players that swear by the lighter bats such as: 26oz, 27oz and even 28oz because they get more bat-speed. According to this study you would have a greater ëball exit speedí using a 30oz slo-pitch bat even though your bat speed would be slower than using a lighter oz bat, thus yielding more power and distance on you long flies!
-------
For myself, the lighter bats is more productive.
Jan. 6, 2012
Pricer
Men's 50
620 posts
Gary, as a pitcher most of my life, I respectfully will disagree with you on the pitchers being the only players at risk.
Jan. 6, 2012
Omar Khayyam
984 posts
Pricer is right. Although pitchers are most at risk from composite bats (see SSUSA's rules on mandatory protection or signed waiver), it is also riskier for corner infielders (and possibly middle infielders). Don't we all see third baseman now backed up to the edge of the dirt in the age of Miken? Why? It's a much farther throw to first. Reason is two-fold: attempt to stop shots through the hole because faster ball speed from composites gives the fielder near the bag less time to snag it; and safety from balls hit right at them. I personally know two 3B who no longer play there because of getting plunked by composite-hit balls and I know other 3B who think their well-earned fielding reputation was diminished by hotter bats—and three no longer play senior tournament softball because of that!

Same argument holds for first baseman, but there are far fewer left-handed batters, so the disappointing results and/or unsafe speeds are less prevalent.

And, of course, although not usually a safety issue, many, many outfielders have complained about having to cover ever-larger outfields brought about by 300, 310, even 325 foot fences necessary in the age of composites. When is the last time you saw a tournament outfielder playing at 200 feet on a decent hitter? Used to be very common back in single-wall days. This is progress? Or just accommodation for the hot bats prevalent less than a decade in our sport.
Jan. 6, 2012
neck10
488 posts
pricer do you hunt with a cross bow see there legal now???????????
Jan. 6, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
As usual, very well said by Omar.
Jan. 6, 2012
Pricer
Men's 50
620 posts
Neck, I don't hunt. I feel hunting will become a sport until the animals can shoot as well.
Jan. 6, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Or until the "brave" men who hunt have to run the animals down and subdue them by hand.

I often wonder how sporting the softball-playing hunters would think it is if they had to play with ASA-bats and barehands while the other team had Mikens and gloves.
Jan. 6, 2012
5ToolsinOhio
Men's 50
160 posts
You often wonder...about that? You are seriously warped.
Jan. 6, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
You are seriously a stalker.
Jan. 7, 2012
pattontax
10 posts
Gary, I'm curious, since a USSSA or NSA bat is not allowed in ASA, do you consider those special bats? I think there are some wood bats that are not allowed in ASA, are those special bats also? What is not a special bat? I play with kids in the city league here in St. George and they use a lot of shaved bats. Last year the city provided bats that were required to be used by each team, but they broke quickly and we went back to using our own bats. I've never used a shaved bat but the kids don't hestitate to use them. I don't have a problem using USSSA or NSA bats as long as we use a decent ball. Each organization has there own rules so I don't consider using senior bats in a senior tournament special. That is just the equipment allowed for that organization.
Jan. 10, 2012
Wayne 37
192 posts
@pattontax,

I'm just curious what you did to break these "city" bats.
Jan. 10, 2012
mad dog
Men's 60
3930 posts
wayne, i would think that they broke b/c of use.look at it this way,4 games 8 teams,10-12+ batters depending on league rules,3-4 ab's per batter 30-48 swings per team times 2 for both teams(60- 96),times 4 for 4 games(240-384),and the swings build up pretty quickly.it will be slightly less per bat if they have multiple bats per field.

hey patton is this dave,this is bob with the wife of your same last name.....LOL.....
Jan. 10, 2012
pattontax
10 posts
Bob, your right about the bats breaking. A bunch of young guys with a lot of at bats in 50 degree weather. Yes, its me. I haven't seen you at the Huntsman games the last couple of years. If you want play here let me know and I can get on a team with me. I'm playing 55 and 60s now. Dave
Jan. 10, 2012
neck10
488 posts
pricer some people hunt bears & mountain lions tell thos guys about your sport
Jan. 10, 2012
mad dog
Men's 60
3930 posts
i'll have to remember that,thanks.yeah the last 2 years have been a bust for me,not enough $ last year and injured the year before.hope i can make it this year if they don't interfere with worlds,i can play 60 and down now.......
Jan. 16, 2012
Threeoutbandit
25 posts
The older U2's with the asa stamp are heads and tails better than the U2's with the senior stamp. Some of the bats breaking passed the 1.20 bpf that has been the standard of play for years and that is what makes them better than the one that stay with in the standards set. I think that was the biggest reason behind the move to the new 1.21 bpf standard.

BTW Gary I hunt and can tell you if your man enough ill take you on a deer hunt with just a knife. You going to man up and go kill that deer with the knife????? I think not. I eat what I kill and I also do not harvest more than can be eaten during the year.
Jan. 16, 2012
garyheifner
349 posts
Crusher-just saw your post-thought this thread phased out.

I just read an article that is similar in some ways to what you are trying. In the end it is supposed to give you better cardio, burn more fat and you will lose less muscle mass as you get older. Might be a good one for older guys.
Jan. 17, 2012
neck10
488 posts
these bats cant be that special some of our players still cant hit the ball over the fence & every team we played last year about half the guys or more couldnt hit the ball over the fence I dont think we had anybody make a out for hitting to many home runs & we played in just about every organization out here then our leauge which only allows 98mph only had about 8 hr all yr 7teams 14game season 300ft fences 55&over lot of 70yr old guys tho
Jan. 17, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Three, if that is how you roll that is great. But are you going to tell me that is true for all hunters? Or even the majority?

Simple point is it is NOT "sport" when one side is so much more heavily armed than than the other. Just isn't.
Jan. 17, 2012
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Look up the definition of sport, one is "recreation". Hunting for some is just that.
Gary, do you fish? Do you eat beef, pork, chicken, or turkey? In the very least, hunted animals have a chance of escape, feed stock does not.

Jan. 17, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
No I don't fish, can't think of anything more boring.

Yes, I do eat those, but I don't ask my butcher for the cow's, pig's, chicken's, or turkey's heads so I can mount them above my fireplace.

Plus it is apples and oranges. If not for the farms and ranches that bred them those animals would never have been born to begin with. Deer in the wild would be there regardless.
Jan. 17, 2012
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
And the vast majority of those who hunt eat the meat. And never look for a taxidemist.
How far back would you like to go on the being born issue? They had to come from somewhere. Once again, your bucket has holes in it.
Jan. 17, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
So perhaps Adam Cow and Eve Cow were born out of captivity and were sacrificed to yield meat after creating cowkind, but those thousands of their descendants over decades of time were born only to be eaten. NEVER would have otherwise.

Nice try, though. =)

Bambi in the woods was born to run free.
Jan. 17, 2012
Threeoutbandit
25 posts
Gary what do you eat??????
Jan. 17, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Uhhhh, fruits, vegetables, grains, chocolate, and various meat and poultry that were bred solely to be my breakfast, lunch, and dinner.
Jan. 17, 2012
Threeoutbandit
25 posts
If you eat meat then please shut the hell up about where it comes from. Cattle run wild,goats,pigs, ect still today. So what are you trying to say...... there not free?????? Hell fire man your a bigger dumb arse than I thought.
Jan. 17, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
I am pretty sure the animals that wind up on my dinner table were not killed in the wild.

Are you actually too stupid to understand that the meat and poultry on your dinner table were born SOLELY to wind up on a dinner table, and without that purpose they would never have been born? Seriously, are you? (scratching head in amazement)
Jan. 17, 2012
Threeoutbandit
25 posts
Don't scratch too hard or you will lose what brains you do have.

Those animals were born for other usage Gary or can you not understand that???
What is on your dinner table is not what is on mine.
You buy your food, I kill mine.
Jan. 17, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
And what other usages might those have been? Care to explain what other purposes animals and poultry on ranches and farms have? So they just happened to have bad luck one day and would up slaughtered?

Again with the brains comment. Anytime you care to compare, I am ready.

Jan. 18, 2012
Threeoutbandit
25 posts
Yep some of those animal are sold to other farms for what is called keeper stock. Keeper stock is used to keep the younger animals in line and also used for breeding. All keeper stock are allowed to roam the farm at will until natural death.

Your book smarts are nothing to real world know how.
Jan. 18, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Sorry I was raised and educated in civilization.

But if "All keeper stock are allowed to roam the farm at will until natural death" then I assume they can get pretty old, at least old for livestock. So that old meat winds up in my butcher shop and then my dinner table?

What percentage of the animals born and bred for food wind up as keeper stock?
Jan. 18, 2012
Threeoutbandit
25 posts
No the keeper stock is never sent to market, those animals go into makeup and other product. Around 25% are kept for this usage, they mite be the best of the best or they mite have a slight problem that would stop them from getting full market value.
Jan. 18, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
But that is my point, I think. If the keeper stock is never sent to market, then isn't the only meat I eat from animals that were strictly born for that purpose?
Jan. 18, 2012
5ToolsinOhio
Men's 50
160 posts
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Jan. 19, 2012
Gallardo
16 posts
I think the ASA stamped Ultra 2 had a reported exit speed 8-10 mph faster than the u trip bats. The senior stamped U2 as was stated earlier was 3-4 mph more.
Sign-in to reply or add to a discussion or post your own message and start a new discussion. If you don't have a message board account, please register for a free nickname. It will only take a moment.
Senior Softball-USA
Phone: (916) 326-5303
Fax: (916) 326-5304
2701 K Street, Suite 101A
Sacramento, CA 95816
Send us e-mail
Senior Softball-USA is dedicated to informing and uniting the Senior Softball Players of America and the World. Senior Softball-USA sanctions tournaments and championships, registers players, writes the rulebook, publishes Senior Softball-USA News, hosts International Softball Tours and promotes Senior Softball throughout the world. More than 1.5 million men and women over 40 play Senior Softball in the United States today. »SSUSA History  »Privacy policy

Follow us on Facebook

Partners