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Discussion: Giving 5 runs to "inferior" teams

Posted Discussion
Feb. 27, 2012
ALLPRO
42 posts
Giving 5 runs to "inferior" teams
Just returned from a AZ tournament that we entered as a 60 AAA TEAM. We were in a bracket with 4 other 60 AAA teams and one 60 AA team. Before we arrived we were told we would be giving up 5 runs to the AA team. When we arrived we were told that since we added 3 players that were considered major/major plus we had to give up 5 runs to all teams (including the host team). The players we added were a 69 year pitcher, a 68 year 1st baseman and a 67 year old short stop. We also had a 67 year old DH, a 65 year old 3rd baseman, and 2 65 year old outfielders. We lost 4 games, 2 straight up (including getting run ruled with the 5 extra runs by the host team) The only game we won was against the AA team by one run in the bottom of the seventh. We hit 0 home runs in the 5 games!

It was ridiculous to penalize us on the addition of 3 players without considering the team as a whole. The rule needs to be applied considering all the facts, especially the age of the players, the age of the bracket and the level being played. It is very difficult to over come a 5 run deficit, especially when only 5 runs are being allowed each inning.

Overall the giving of 5 runs is a "flawed" rule for several reasons: 1)giving up the 5 runs and having to be the home team is not an advantage, 2)if the team getting the extra runs scores 5 runs in the inning they should not receive an additional run, 3) no team should get an extra run in the "open" inning,4)the extra runs should not factor into getting "run ruled".

This rule needs to be changed and be applied "judiciously not "arbitrarily!
Feb. 28, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Yet more Socialistic softball. =(
Feb. 28, 2012
Bomber #7
Men's 60
62 posts
Sounds like the host team knew the players you added and were afraid they may not win their own fundraiser. Never liked the 5 run rule, but one would think your team "equalized" the situation of adding players by doing so with older players that did not change the balance in the bracket.
We had a similar situation happen when a player in another age group that didn't have anything to do with our bracket ran his mouth to the tournament director about 2 players we had picked up, I guess out of being jealous or peraps being vindictive towards our 2 pick-ups. Results were the same as yours, except we didn't win a game. One of our pick-ups was coming off open heart surgery, the other just off cancer treatment, both just trying to get "back in the saddle."
Sounds like your host like ours, did a poor job in judgement. And, then next year will wonder why certain teams didn't come back.
Feb. 28, 2012
neck10
498 posts
we did that at the toc in winterhaven in 2011 we added two players we just went up and played major plus that way we played heads up with everyone.but I thought it was fair wasnt the major teams fault we couldnt field a team without picking up soome players.
Feb. 28, 2012
Dbax
Men's 60
1280 posts
The ages of the players picked up are irrelevant. It's the quality of their play.
Feb. 28, 2012
kbl
Men's 60
529 posts
Dbax..wouldn't the ages be relevant as people running the tournament wouldnt know quality of players???? thanks, ken
Feb. 28, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
kbl, I can understand how they might not know the players' abilities, but then how can they decide to give runs? On what basis?

If they don't have the information that would be needed, they probably should not meddle.
Feb. 28, 2012
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
IF the 3 players who are added were M+ players I think SSUSA did the right thing according to their rules. However IF the 3 players were not M+ players it seems they were in error.

The AAA team I play on wanted to add 1 M+ player who played 8 years for us before we moved to 60's, we had to move to Majors to have him back with us when he turned 60. He is by no means an impact player.

However I do understand what an enormous undertaking it would be to rate or rank every player who is register in each organization.
Feb. 28, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
E4, it certainly would be, but then they just shouldn't give teams runs at all.

I don't recall Namath asking for points against the Colts, or Herb Brooks asking for goals against the Soviets. That is what competition is about.
Feb. 28, 2012
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
If you stack your team with M/M+ players, you become a M team and give up the 5 runs. That's what the rules say.
Feb. 28, 2012
Tate22
Men's 55
263 posts
As a 55 M+ team, we give up runs almost every game we play this time of year. What's worse than giving up the runs is trying to get eye contact from the teams that actually take the runs. With apologies to the Marine Corp, I have a new motto for those teams that are hooked on the government cheese runs, "Wimper Five"! Man up and play straight up, especially if you are a Major team.

Same stupid question that never gets answered objectively, What is a M+ player? 99% of previous answers and the method of administration of this rule is that it is a player that had the good fortune to play for a successful major team.
Feb. 28, 2012
whoopie
1 posts
Tate 22, you are a piece of work. Not only do you disrespect the Marine Corp, you did the same thing when you were the Manager of Evolution. There is no crying in softball and give your major plus team more credit. As Mango would say, quit embarrassing your team.
Feb. 28, 2012
Tate22
Men's 55
263 posts
Whoopie, whoever you are. Who's crying? I'm calling out Major teams who take the free runs, especially the ones that pick M+ players just up from the younger age group. That's the embarrassment. In seven years my teams have never taken runs when playing M+ teams or younger divisions, including teams likes J
K 40's or the strongest editions of the Mavericks. We'd rather have the challenge of playing the best straight up. Your right, there is no crying in softball, and there is no bigger boo hoo in this game than "I want my baby runs". As for my good friend Mango, he couldn't agree more.

Stop by and introduce yourself sometime, I'm not hard to find. I look like Larry Tate and I wear #22. If you're taking the runs, I'll spare you the needling as you already know how I feel.
Feb. 29, 2012
neck10
498 posts
boys if you dont have 5 guys that can hit the ball out of the park 3 out of 4 times at bat you better get ready to take your defeat we were ahead in the TOC last year (we picked up 2 players because we were short one was a pitcher & the other was a base hitter so we had to move up to major plus )by 5 runs in the bottom of 7th 7 batters & 2 pitchers later we were beat.By the new rules you better have plenty of power.
Feb. 29, 2012
canIjack
Men's 60
322 posts
I nevered understood this Rule.
Man up! I'm with Tate 22 on this one. Man to Man, 50 to 50, 50+ to 55+, 55 to 55, 55+ to 60+, it don't matter. If you're scared say it. I fear no Man. Take this ASS kicken like a Man. Too Too many Wimppies of the world. Ohhh JMO

But it won't happen, How many guys will play a team that they know will beat them 9 out of 10 games.
Feb. 29, 2012
hombre
Men's 60
220 posts
Sometimes the umps are clueless in these situations. In an SPA tournament last year, the older team was given five runs because they were older and the younger team was given an extra defensive player because the were in a lower classification. The rules book state that it is a wash, but the umps said no...
Feb. 29, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Douglass didn't ask Tyson to fight him with one hand tied behind his back.
Feb. 29, 2012
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
What's gotten in to you Kennard? Sounds like you sat on a Whoopie cushion.
Feb. 29, 2012
canIjack
Men's 60
322 posts
Hey salio2k, please Leave your Sex toys out of this. This is for real men.
Feb. 29, 2012
the wood
1085 posts
The philosophical dialogue on giving up the runs (or taking the runs) can take many different courses. The rule is there.
I prefer to use it our advantage whether we're in the position of giving or taking them. If we give them I figure that we'll need to work harder offensively to overcome them and it's the pre-season. This will help us later in the year.
If we're in the position of receiving them we don't do so. This, too, will make us work harder. If it causes us to lose a game in March, who really cares?
Our goal is to be stronger at year end than we are in the pre-season. This rule helps us to do that, IMO. I try not to get too involved with how the other team treats it or feels about it. This is irrelevant to me.
This rule isn't indigenous to senior softball as we played with it in So CA USSSA in 1975. We either gave up 5 or 7 runs (all up front) before the 1st pitch. If they happened to score 304 runs in the top of the 1st, we really had to bear down. Because most events were double elim back then, I didn't particularly like the rule but it made it more feasible for local teams to play us. They were called 'handicap tourneys' and being PC wasn't such a big deal. Otherwise, we had to fly to Petersburg, Oakland, Detroit, Cleveland, Phoenix, St. Louis, etc. to find teams to play.
WE HAVE NEVER HAD TO GIVE UP RUNS IN NATIONAL EVENTS... EVER.
As it relates to this rule, we ALL have a choice. We can embrace it and use it as an ally or we can moan about its existence.
BW
Feb. 29, 2012
the wood
1085 posts
Typo:
'if they happened to score 3-4 runs in the top of the 1st'... not 304.
My fault!
BW
Feb. 29, 2012
Jawood
Men's 50
798 posts
I have never understood how a team could feel good about themselves by "winning" a game say by a score of 20-18 or something but were "gifted" 5 runs in the process and the REAL score was losing 18-15. Do you really feel like you beat that team?
Feb. 29, 2012
crusher
Men's 70
395 posts
giving or reciving runs is like eating maggots.
You win or you get beat. Not a big deal.
Play the game.
If you do not like to play a higher rated team do not play
them.....
Else, beat them.
Tell the TD to stick it if the TD want handouts.
Have I played against M+ teams while being AAA, yes,
I do not want runs, it is an insult.

C
Feb. 29, 2012
garyheifner
361 posts
In the ring tournaments you don't have to worry about runs as the teams are even. In the small qualifiers runs can be justified to make the competition play on a more equal level which encourages the lesser teams to come back. There is usually quite a difference between the teams for example AAAs and a Major team. My team never takes the runs but rather the 11th defender to help out in the middle. Most of the time the lower team usually ends up fielding batting practice for 5 or 6 innings, shakes hands and moves on to the next game. We are a AA/AAA type team and think we are around 1-14+ vs. M and M+ teams. The only time the games are close is when the wind is blowing in strongly. It has become quite clear that most of the M and M+ teams are hand picked players who not only hit but play great defense. They usually make up the runs in 2 or 3 innings. What is the difference if they win 25-6 or 25 to 11. When we have to give the 5, we take it as a challenge.
March 1, 2012
Webbie25
Men's 60
1983 posts
I am like canIjack, I want to look'em in the eye and play'em straight up, no matter what. We played NCI-M+ back in 2009 in Prescott with a AAA team from Albuquerque. We beat them something like 28-26, but were given the 5 runs, so we actually lost 26-23. I have never been able to talk about it without qualifying it by saying-yeah, we got the 5 runs. Same thing 2 weeks ago in Phoenix. I'm glad we did not take the 5 runs against Rogue (55M+ vs 60 M+). We lost by one, but I would not have felt good winning by 4 with the runs. Kudos to GSF and Tom for making that call!!

That all being said, the rule does need to exist for ring tournament play, at least.
March 1, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Jawood, to answer your question remember that in many cases this is the same group of guys who feel good about hitting a home run with a bat no one under 50 is allowed to use.
March 1, 2012
ALLPRO
42 posts
MOAN ABOUT IT!? Woody, I admire your "pragmatic" view of this subject, but with all due respect you may have an opinion on this issue but you can't possibly relate to the situation we faced. You have had the fortune of either playing or managing Major Plus/ Major teams for at least the last decade surrounded by some of the best senior players in the Western region. I wouldn't take the 5 runs if I were you either. As for getting 5 runs, I doubt that happened enough times to even mention it.

I'm talking about a first year team that was a 60 AA team last year that lost half it's players to 65. They kept 7 of those AA players and tried to get a few AAA players and 2 that were "on a "Major roster" last year and step up to AAA. At this point in the season we had a less than a .500 season going (which is now closer to .400). Did you notice we had O home runs? The players we added obviously did not add power last weekend, so where was our "competitive" advantage?!

I'm not "moaning", we just wanted to play "even up" based on the overall make up of our team, which was "at best" AAA, unlike the Major Plus Major teams you have "always" been a part of.
March 1, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Are power and home runs still the only criteria by which teams and players are measured? Sadly, it is sounding that way.
March 1, 2012
tg69
309 posts
Why are there AA, AAA, MAJOR, and MAJOR+ divisions if everybody should just play HEADS UP or why is there age brackets ?Why not put everyone in 50 MAJOR+ regardless of age and talent and let them fend for theirself. I would bet that all who scoff at getting free runs never played at the lower levels.
March 1, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
tg, probably not a matter of scoffing as much as of pride.

As I said earlier, Namath did not take points and Brooks did not take goals.
March 1, 2012
tg69
309 posts
So it would do your PRIDE good to beat a Lower division team by 30 runs knowing that they werent on the same talent level as you.PRIDE should go both ways.
March 1, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
No, not at all. I would just play the game as low key as I could and get out of there as painlessly as possible.

In that event, both teams will know there was an actual 30-run difference regardless of whether you hand the lower team free runs or not. Those free runs don't fool anyone, or sure shouldn't.
March 1, 2012
the wood
1085 posts
Gary P:
True enough, we have had some very good teams and players over the past 10 years. Can you imagine how many runs we gave up during that span? Presumably, you won't have any argument with this element of my previous post. Our posture was to work harder to overcome the 5 runs... but we had players that didn't like it and were not shy about voicing their feelings.
As to the part about 'receiving runs'... we frequently played teams younger than us. We have been in the position of giving them 100 times as often as the reverse.
But my comment about 'moaning' wasn't specifically directed to you. There are some that pretend that lower/older teams taking the runs is akin to 'high treason' or it means that they are less manly... particularly if they don't make eye contact. Coincidentally, many of these guys are the ones that complain about the lack of teams to play.
If the guys that you picked up for the AZ event were of a higher ranking than your team, and the total number of M/M+ guys pushed you over the limit, why wouldn't you expect to give up runs? Besides, what real difference does it make in February?
We're playing in Bullhead City next week and the schedule already shows that we're giving up 5 or 7 runs (depending upon whom we play). It is a 55+ event and we have several mid 60s guys. Who cares? It is the pre-season and this is just a 'throw together' team.
To me, there are many more-pressing issues than the 'equalizer runs'. But isn't the opportunity to turn lemons into lemonade worthy of consideration?
BW
March 1, 2012
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Two things Gary, one) this isnt a Professsional level sport, therefore shouldnt be compared to them, in this instance. Two) I seriously doubt Namath or Brooks (whoever that is) were ever offered points.

Woody, in our first game in PS against the 50 AAA team we didnt take the runs and as you know they stepped on us rather handily. In the second game against them we did take the runs and scraped out a win by 1 run, we should have been given runs playing your team heads up though =)
I think the point is to balance out better talent over a lesser team the runs are a good idea. Even though they rarily help the lesser team win.
March 1, 2012
canIjack
Men's 60
322 posts
Guys, We already have the 5 run per inning limit, isn't that enough to keep games close? Really, isn't that enough? And then Plus 1. This is the stupidest thing since tate 22 called it government cheese. I don't agree with the comparison. But then I don't agree with to many old gray hair guys anyway.
March 1, 2012
the wood
1085 posts
John, at the risk of offending you or anyone on your team, we would have been glad to have given you the 5 runs. Had we offered it we may have pissed your team off and we like all of your guys. So that wasn't an option for us.
Had you asked, we would have done so.
As you know, we didn't take the runs either when playing the 50 team... not in the seeding nor the DE.
My goal at this time of year is to improve. Wins & losses, by themselves, are not all that meaningful. MBL's Spring Training is handled in the same manner. As they get closer to opening day, the teams get sharper.
We've been at this for a really long time and have refined our methods over the years. But what works for us may not work for others.
BW
March 1, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
True, this isn't professional, but it is still grown men and pride should still enter the equation somewhere.

By the way, Herb Brooks coached the Olympic ice hockey team in 1980. I assume you heard of them.
March 1, 2012
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Woody you knows its hard to offend me, especially coming from you or many of my other friends.
We felt the same way. We wouldnt ask for the runs from you, we are still in the development stage as a Major team and need to see where we fit in. So far we arent really fodder, but we arent a contender either.

Gary not many remember the Coach(s), and not many remember the players, even though they pulled off a major coop in 1980.
March 1, 2012
leftyodoul
Men's 60
99 posts
If you are a bowler or a golfer you establish a handicap and any time you compete against someone else you compare handicaps. If there is a difference between the two competitors the one with the highest handicap gets some type of scoring advantage to try to equalize the playing field. This allows players from different skill levels to be able to compete against one another. Essentially, you are really competing against yourself, trying to do better than what you normally do. The run advantage/extra defender option is Senior Softball's method of handicapping. As long as the age/classifications are legitimate this is probably the best way to handle the issue of two teams that are at different skill levels playing against each other.
In most parts of the country there are not a wealth of senior softball teams. To be able to hold a tournament you must be willing to play teams in different age brackets and different skill levels. It's not a perfect solution but it's the best that the association could come up with.
I am certainly not a fan of "all things SSUSA" but in this matter I feel that they are doing the best that they can. My beef is really with the classification system, especially when it involves teams named "Ruth".
March 1, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Agreed, though Brooks might have been more memorable than most, particularly due to the somewhat recent movie about the team. But point well-taken.

lefty, the biggest difference I see is that in both golf and bowling you play NO defense against your opponent. You have NO control over how well they do. In softball you have the potential to affect every offensive "play" of the opponent with your own skills, abilities, and effort.
March 1, 2012
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Gary tell that to some of Tiger Woods opponents in his dominate years. His play would throw his opponents into an automatic defensive mode.
Or when bowling, if your opponent throws strike after strike, you certainly would become defensive trying to figure out how to get in his head and slow his game down.
Mental defense?
March 1, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Perhaps, but that is something they allowed to happen to them mentally and emotionally. Much different than Rodman playing defense on Malone, or Maddox pitching to almost anyone. Woods never would have been able to have that effect on Nicklaus, Palmer, Watson, etc.

Mental defense only works on the weak.
March 1, 2012
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Mental defense works on fragile egos, egos that are necessary to have if one wants to be a successful professional, they are wound a bit tighter then the rest.
I believe Tiger would have been in a defensive mode to Nicholas or any of the others and vice versa, if they were behind in a tournament. That doesnt mean they would give up or stop trying, it just is what it is.
Similar to the giving up of 5 runs I suppose.
March 1, 2012
Tate22
Men's 55
263 posts
There have been some great points made above (not necessarily mine included)in a fairly civil discourse. This prompted me to re-examine my true position on the courtesy 5 run rule. The Wood and LeftyOdoul say it best. I've found that playing close games in February really helps us be ready for close games in our classification in tournaments that really matter in October. Although I may quip at those teams (primarily the 55 M teams) taking runs, I really appreciate that they are there and competing in local events all year so that we have a place to play senior softball against quality opponents all year long. If the five-run rule is needed to make that happen, so be it.

I've gone on record many times about combining Major and Major Plus, which would end this debate in those classifications. I stand by that belief as I think there are enough equalizers in place (runs per inning, limits on homers)when M+ and M play. Three levels is enough in each age group.

As LeftyOdoul points out, the free run rule is not a perfect solution, but if it produces the best outcome by increasing participation, it has its place. We won't take it if it's available, but that's just our M/O. We think playing straight up makes us stronger. Just something to consider when the opportunity presents itself.
Let's Play Ball!
JMHO
Don Newhard
Nighthawks 55 M+
March 1, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
The best suggestion might have been made by someone on another thread a while back. For the "lesser" team, let them score 6 runs per inning instead of just 5. This way they can get some type of equalizer, but at least they have to earn the runs and aren't just given them.

Might be the best combination of Socialism and Capitalism. =)
March 1, 2012
Webbie25
Men's 60
1983 posts
Interesting-45 posts and 12 by a person outed in another thread as being a low level fun league pitcher-an accusation he never refuted-and twice he referred to socialism (strong left supporter)-and probably has never been on a team that had to give the five runs. Nice.

Tate-close games and good competition NEVER hurt a team-teams become stronger learning what it takes to win. I love those close games-gets the stomach a bit queasy and you know you are going to produce. There is nothing better in softball.What happened to the prevailing attitude that you want to play the best and learn to give your best against the best?? Seems to be a dying attitude. I haven't lost the attitude that I want to play anybody, anywhere, and if you beat me-even badly-I will be back out there to play you again to get better and learn how to beat you. Been there, done that, and never tired of it.

March 1, 2012
steve65
Men's 65
175 posts
well said Webbie25
March 1, 2012
Jawood
Men's 50
798 posts
Gary, I've heard the lower team being able to score 6 an inning while the higher team can only score 5 somewhere before. Thanks for bringing back an "oldie but goody". Equalizers are fine, but just EARN it.
March 2, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Mark, what would be the point? Defending an accusation that was made with no substantiation only gives validity to it.

Much like your accusation that I am a "strong left supporter", again with NO substantiation. You know my voting record?
March 2, 2012
canIjack
Men's 60
322 posts
Webbie25,
Your 2nd paragraph, I couldn't have said it better.
March 2, 2012
neck10
498 posts
gary 19 I bet you dont take your discount at the store either do you.
March 2, 2012
neck10
498 posts
we played in the 55 major division in the TOC there were 9 teams in it 8 55 teams & one 60 team 8 of the 9 went one & one in the prelim games one team went 2&0 can you guess which team it was??????????????????
March 2, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Seriously, what discount?

For being a senior? I don't qualify yet at most places, at least I don't think I do, but I have never asked.
March 2, 2012
Qnine
Men's 50
17 posts
Gary19 are you going to in Mayfield Village ASA 50 & over League we use asa bats
March 3, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Actually I might be. Not for that reason, but I am getting tired of twice a week 85-mile round trips to Barberton.

I knew you guys use more restricted bats than the Senior bats, but just learned this week they must be ASA-approved.
March 3, 2012
leftyodoul
Men's 60
99 posts
neck10 - If you have a team go 2-0 you have to have a team go 0-2. Sweet Construction went 0-2 in the round robin.
March 5, 2012
neck10
498 posts
not if you have 9 teams & the one team was 60 & over & there games didnt count
March 5, 2012
neck10
498 posts
ultra 2's are asa approve for senior ball this (2012)year all 1.21 bats are asa senior play approved.
March 5, 2012
neck10
498 posts
you have to have ratings 7 the associations do the best thay can to keep it fair its the players that try to play down. there are guys that all they can do is hit home runs thats why you have to have major plus so they are not penalized ,you also have to have AA for the guys who run & base hit & stuggle to put the runs up , the aaa & major are pretty much even we played in the heartland tourney in chattanogga last year & the AAA team from louisville killed all of us major teams in the prelimes& I see thay are still a AAA team in ssusa,we gave them 5 runs & they beat us by one ,but thay beat other AAA teams bad,so that tells me AAA & major are pretty equal.
March 5, 2012
neck10
498 posts
other major teams
March 18, 2012
goforit
97 posts
Well here we go another year and no other 60 Major Plus teams are showing up in Mesquite. Since we needed a tournament to use for a warmup we will now have to face a bunch of good 60 major teams (some should be major plus by now)and give five runs every game and then have to win the tournament to qualify for anything. I agree with the Wood on his earlier post, it should make us play harder but it will be the first time outside for some of us and we won't have everyone.

No real crying here, i'm just disappointed that no other 60 Major Plus teams like GSF , D & K or MTC came to this tournament.

Lets hope the weather is good, we see lots of friends again and we have lots of fun.

John Giesler
March 19, 2012
Webbie25
Men's 60
1983 posts
Hey, John-I am part of the reason we are not making Mesquite. Our company has inventory that weekend and it is MANDATORY-no exceptions. We are looking forward to Vegas, though.
March 19, 2012
goforit
97 posts
Mark,

I'm not blameing one person, we have the same problem with some not able to make the tournament. I do know that GSF still has plenty of players to field a team just like we do. Everyone understands its early in the year and its tough to field your regular team. I just wanted to play some teams that we will be playing against during the year in our division and have a chance to play them straight up. We are still building our team and it would be nice to see where we stand against other 60 Major Plus teams.
Look forward to seeing you in Vegas

John
March 19, 2012
Corky
Men's 55
446 posts
Just last fall we play in the winter Nationals in pensacola........a 60 major/major+ team was smokin teams in the 60 AGE division so instead of making them give the other teams 5 runs they moved them down to 55AAA "AFTER" pool play.....seeded them 2nd which gave them a bye in the first round of the brackets.......and then had the nerve to make us give them 5 runs to boot.
March 19, 2012
ALLPRO
42 posts
Tried to stay out of this, "but I just keep getting pulled back in"! Went to Bullhead City two weekends ago with a 65 team - Same S--t, had to give 5 runs to all other teams in our bracket, lost all 5 games, one by 10 run rule after 5 innings (using the 5 runs we had to give them). In another game we came back in the bottom of the seventh scoring 10 runs to tie the game and lost because they were the visiting team and so in addition to the 5 runs they were given an additional 1/2 run to prevent ties!!!!!!!!!

Sorry, Woody and anyone else who thinks giving up the runs should be a motivator - the rule as is, just plain SUCKS!!!
March 19, 2012
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2665 posts
Corky, we really appreciated the runs you gave us! Just kidding. I and a few other teammates were ok without receiving the runs. I still don't understand why we were given them.
My team was in Montgomery this past weekend but I chose to attend Softball Magazine's Spring Training. I hear we were given runs there also but this time 50 Major teams gave us 5 runs.
March 19, 2012
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
as i see it,for seeding games who cares,give/take the 5 runs and play....in elim play there should be no give/taking of runs play it straight up....by the way weren't you a M+ player with the vegas stars back in the early 2000's.....
March 19, 2012
ALLPRO
42 posts
SSHOF Inductee 2002, now I'm a half tool player just returning to action this year with 2 hip replacements, 10 years older and 50 more pounds! I'm worth a drop down in level all by myself!
March 19, 2012
audieh
Men's 60
242 posts
The following is something I wrote last year after the ToC.

Here are some interesting facts based on the 2011 ToC tournament in Polk County. There were 2 major plus 50 teams and 3 major plus 55 teams. Due to the small number of major plus teams these teams had to play major teams in the round robin. The results were 1, yes I said 1 major plus win, and 9 major wins! The scoring was also skewed with the major plus teams averaging 16.6 runs per game and the major teams averaging 21.2 runs per game. This is a 4.6 run differential per game which would lead me to believe that the major plus teams having to give 5 runs or an extra 11th defender creates an unfair advantage for the major team, or the major teams are just as good as the major plus teams.

I have seen these results repeated in other tournaments as well. Based on this limited sampling it would appear that no equalizer is required and the major teams are every bit as good as the major plus teams!

However, my personal experiences has shown that the major plus teams are having to play with the major rules of only 5 home runs. This is a major impediment to the major plus teams which are typically built with more home run power. This results in the major plus team hitting home runs for outs and/or power hitters having to purposely hit opposite field or up the middle to keep the ball in the park. Since the major plus players tend to be power hitters and not base hitters this limits their success and gives an advantage to the major teams who are more practiced at hitting for base hits.

I believe the senior softball associations should at least analyze this predicament and considered instituting one of the following corrective actions.

1) When major and major plus teams play give the major team the 5 runs but play with the major plus home run limits of 10.

2) When major and major plus teams play give the major team the 5 runs but allow any home runs over the 5 limit be singles and not outs.

I believe a tournament or two using one of these two changing would prove some interesting data which could then be used to make changes if they are deemed necessary. If not, it appears based on this limited analysis that the major teams have the advantage. The proof is in the 1 and 9 record exhibited by the major plus teams.
March 20, 2012
DoubleL10
Men's 65
833 posts
Gary, You're killing me! Hope to see you on the field in Vegas in April!
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