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Discussion: AGE & RATING MIXING AT TOURNAMENTS????

Posted Discussion
May 20, 2012
GaCMan
86 posts
AGE & RATING MIXING AT TOURNAMENTS????
Another tournament this weekend with multiple teams in my division 55AAA and they drop 1 60 MAJOR team in with us who no AAA team thats there really has a chance to win against??
This happens quite regularly where I am from. I or we don't mind playing these guys but IMO 5 years is not an equalizer from AAA to MAJOR unless you have a very strong AAA and the MAJOR team is very weak. That wasn't the case.
Also if, IMO if you beat all of the AAA teams your team should get the CHAMPIONSHIP for the AAA bracket. The MAJOR team (if they beat all of the AAA teams should then get the MAJOR CHAMPIONSHIP DUHHHHH. Why is it they let 1 team do this to multiple other teams. Whats the point in RATING teams and having aged groups.
Am I way out of line here or is the PROFIT from these tournaments so little the these ASSOCIATIONS can't AFFORD one extra $10.00 plack. On top of all this the FEES for this tournament went up from $350.00 last fall to $465.00 this spring. This is not the first time I have seen this happen. Even though we played these guys 3 times and we also played some very poor ball with them it does get old getting the crap beat out of you and watching the only major team there take our divisions trophy. IMO if there is to be mixing of groups majors should be playing majors and if there is a age differance then give runs

As I said don't have a problem playing them, but this is starting to happen all the time several times this season. Paying these over priced tournaments and this happening is getting old JMO.
May 20, 2012
Lecak
Men's 55
1007 posts
Why would they put a 60 team with 55's. The 60 team only getting 5 runs doesn't seem like enough equalizer.
May 20, 2012
stever
Men's 65
62 posts
I see no real problem dropping a 60 major into the 55AAA tournament, but they should not get any run differential. Theoretically, the age differential should be the offset. Many times that is the only way major teams can get into tournaments. Same thing with dropping a 60 M+ into a 55 Major tournament. One age group - one level. I would think a 55AAA team would welcome good competition. I've seen it a lot (from both sides of the equation) and have no problem with it.
May 20, 2012
ShaneV
Men's 55
382 posts
Good feedback for those of us who run tournaments and want to know. We really do want to offer the very best to the teams in our regions and little tweaks here and there can really make a difference in customer satisfaction.

Just a thought: I consider all of the teams from my state, top to bottom, to be my teams. They all need the opportunity to play local to prepare for Championship events and represent us. With only a few Major and even fewer Major+ teams in a three state area, they will always be combined with others in a local event. And it is true they are tough to beat, even with equalizers. Add in the continuing development of the 40's program, it's even more of a challenge.

We now have 4 40's teams in our local league, and lucky us, a 55AAA team, we get stuck in the same division, and we're 0-6 so far. Our guys don't like it but we are being tested each week, and it may end up helping us when we get to the big events. We don't have to play anyone but 55AAA when it really matters.

It's a big picture perspective, our state or our region against the nation, rather than "I, me, my".

And what is "over-priced"? When a tournament director makes more than $5/hour for his time? If he's really good at it should he make $10/hour? And how many guaranteed games do you want?

ShaneV
May 20, 2012
LP
282 posts
last year here in Texas there was six 60 AAA teams to make a good division in a tournament but a 60's major team got put in with us and screwed the whole tournament up. the major team won the tournament hands down. if if happens this year in bracket play , we will demand our money back. seeding games dont matter who we play.
May 20, 2012
garyheifner
360 posts
When my AAA team plays an M team, they must play by our HR rules. We have found that taking the 11th defender over the 5 runs and having him play the middle allows us to at least be competitive. We have turned many dlb plays and been able to shut down the middle in many of the games. They have been forced to hit to our outfielders who are very quick. We have won a few times with the above strategy. With out that 11th defender, we have little or no chance.
May 21, 2012
turn2
484 posts
When a 60 major drops down and plays a 55 triple a teamthere are no runs given. They should play straight up. You also play by the lower home runs which should help the lower team some like Gary stated.
Turn Two
May 21, 2012
elmo07
5 posts
The last time we played in Pensacola as a 60 major team we were put in the 55 aaa bracket and teams refused to play us. What changed? Hard to have any sympathy when 'the only teams we play now are 50 major and 50 major+. They did however award us the 60 major trophy in that tournament. Hope someday they send it to us. Still waiting...
May 21, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4361 posts
I have always been against the equalizer sys as it stands in most arenas.
Works fairly well with ONLY ONE difference that being age OR rating, but we see multiples quite often and there lies the problem.
Sure many will gripe and multiples of runs given, but they gripe anyway.

Lecak, you know what I'm referring to here and I doubt it is a total fix, but at least it does uses both ages and ratings in the mix for "equalizing" teams that are facing each other on uneven terms otherwise.
We do see playing out of age\ratings more often and and its always too late to back out with no cost before you know.

The 11 man addition helps in some respects, but its usually a choice between 11 men on the field or 5 runs.

Sure doesn't meet the definition as I read it.
May 21, 2012
Corky
Men's 55
446 posts
Elmo....you left out one small detail......If your team is Crystal Pharmacy.....The 55's had no problem with you being in the 55AAA bracket, we balked at giving a 60major team 5 runs. There should have been NO equalizer. All the 55 coaches agreed to play straight up.
May 21, 2012
GaCMan
86 posts
Guys I think some of what I said is misunderstood. I never said WE didn't want to play anyone.What I said was if you put a MAJOR team in a AAA division why if the AAA team beats all AAA teams why not give them the AAA championship. The MAJOR team should get the MAJOR championship only if they beat all AAA teams. Also maybe, why not there be no chance for the MAJOR team to send a AAA team home when there are more AAA teams than MAJOR.JMO Looking for answers to a problem as I see it.I know also that some wouldn't want to play them because it would wear on them for the rest of the tournament, I have seen this also. I have never refused to play anyone. Maybe if the MAJOR team isn't intrested in POOL games count all as a bracket game for them.

DOING THIS CANNOT BE THAT GREAT OF A COST TO THE ASSOSIATIONS. ALSO WOULDN'T THE MAJOR TEAM RATHER HAVE A MAJOR CHAMPIONSHIP????

I have seen ISSA do there tournaments this way before.

I'll say this one more time. WE DON'T MIND PLAYING ANYONE, I DONOT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE MAJOR TEAMS!!!

I HAVE SEEN THIS BEFORE BUT WHY NOT COMBINE SOME AGES MAYBE, 50 TO 57 or 58, and 58 to 65 or 66 and so on. There seem to be less and less teams out there, WHY. Just looking for answers to make this better and more teams per division.I don't know but maybe less divisions. Maybe only 3 divisions, AA, AAA, MAJOR OR MAJOR PLUS???

NOT AFRAID TO PLAY ANYONE THAT PLAYS GOOD CLEAN BALL!!!

THIS IS THE MOST FUN EVER, ALL WE WANT TO DO IS PLAY BALL. THERE ARE ONLY SO MANY GAMES LEFT IN THIS LIFE. LETS PLAY BALL.
May 21, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
elmo, is receiving a "championship" trophy for a one-team bracket at your ages really that important to you? Seriously?
May 21, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4361 posts
GaCMan,
Noticed that, just not addresses. I did address the equalizer part which i guess you could care less about then. Not quite sure.
As for few teams that sign up or are in brackets, I think it's economics for the most part, but that has always been around for some T's.
It's the T's that only a 'few' teams that get me. Few being, say less that a dozen, if your looking for a number.
May 21, 2012
monty25
Men's 55
96 posts
I have seen where a older higher rated team plays pool games then in bracket play they are playing as an exibation can't advance but get to play the 2or 3 games while the other teams finish out the bracket playing their age /rating. Everyone gets to play for something. JMO.
May 21, 2012
Tater50
336 posts
GaCMan; I picked that up; knew what you were talking about; these great guys will compete; but you are correct, would not be much more expense for the 55AAA Trophy.

BTW: what an incredible performance by GaCMan & his team; about 3-4 players could not make it, but they kept their heads up & contended.

Tater50
You Cannot Fool the Man in the Mirror.


PS Praises, accolades to Ronnie W; the ump @ Pensy with cancer that many of us gathered around last year & prayed with; GREAT report; has to report for a checkup in regards to his PAST cancer problems in a YEAR. Well worth the trip to get that info.
May 22, 2012
Jawood
Men's 50
794 posts
If they are going to have the number of age groups and classifications with not enough teams in each bracket, mixing the ages and classes is nessessary. There are a number of good equalizer rules that can be used that is fair for all without having to give runs that aren't earned.
May 22, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Jawood, you are certainly correct that the socialistic practice of just giving the needy runs is really bad.

A very good equalizer is hard work.
May 23, 2012
elmo07
5 posts
GaCMan, it is always a pleasure to play y'all. You've never refused to play anyone that I know of. I don't think it was right to spot us runs, we should have played with no equalizer. That was their rule, not ours.

Gary19, the importance of our plaque is that we have a sponsor that we need to show that he is getting something for his money. Instead of giving us our money back, the tournament director told us he would just give us a plaque. So, we did not get our entry fee back, we did not get to play, and we have nothing to show for it.
May 23, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
elmo, I see what you are saying now. That is very unfortunate how that was handled, or not handled. Things like that are what small claims court is for, to get their attention.
May 23, 2012
Jawood
Men's 50
794 posts
elmo07, You could have got your $465 back and went out and purchased your sponsor a much nicer plaque than I'm sure you got from the tournament!
May 23, 2012
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2650 posts
Jawood, we, Crystal Pharmacy, are thinking long and hard about playing these tournaments in the future.
May 23, 2012
TOMAR77
Men's 55
198 posts
Just played in a local Tourney in Temecula, Ca.We had 3,55Teams in our Bracket 2AAA,1AA.Because of various reason's our team was prepared to back out of the Tourney as we were down to 7 player's.We scrounged around and were able to add enough player's to field a team of 11 player's, for each day.Problem was 3 were under 55,(between 52 & 54) we advised the Director, who encouraged us to play so that they would have at the least a somewhat viable 55 age Bracket. We played 5 games 2 were against 50 AAA we turned down the 5 Run equalizer, played them straight-up. Against the 55AA we gave them the 5 Run equalizer they played us very tough. In the Championship Game we played a 55AAA Team who are a very solid Team in our area. We gave them the 5 Run Equalizer as well.Bottom line is if you are just in to Winning, then I have found that you will grasp on to any excuse to favor your Team. If you "Play For The Love Of The Game", you will look at the hand you are dealt, play with that competitive SPIRIT, and be grateful that God as Blessed you with the Health & ability to compete!In the end this is The Toy Department of Life, GIT Out There & Enjoy it! There is always tomorrow,God willing :0)TOMAR Git-R-Done55
May 24, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
I understand nothing is guaranteed, but in a nation where the average life expectancy is pushing 80 and the available medical practices are the finest in the world, why are so many guys so happy to be alive and still able to play a relatively simple game in their 50s?

And there is a reason scores and standings are kept.
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