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Discussion: Reno...Home Run Rule

Posted Discussion
May 24, 2012
twotwo
Men's 50
23 posts
Reno...Home Run Rule
I would like some clarification on the 40 Major Home Run Rule...
Our team was under the impression that the new HR rules would be for 40's also.
Why do the 50+ Major's have the 1up, walk rule and the 40+ Major have dead ball outs?
Am I missing something here? Weren't AAA HR'S - 8 per team per game, Outs?
Help me out please. Thanks

50 Major = 7 per team per game, 1-up, Walks
40 Major = 8 per team per game, Outs

May 24, 2012
SSUSA Staff
1118 posts
The SSUSA Rules Committee at last year's September 'Special Session' modified the HR Rules for the Men's senior divisions only, with changes occurring in the 50+ through 65+ age groups. The 40-Masters and 70+ and more senior age groups were unaffected.

The 40-Masters HR Rules have been, since inception of the Masters program, a fixed maximum, with DBO's thereafter. When the 40-Masters was an un-rated Open Division, that maximum was six (6) per team per game. Once ratings were instituted for 40-Masters teams, the HR limits, while retaining the DBO provisions, were scaled by rating division, as follows:

AAA = 6 per team per game, outs
Major = 8 per team per game, outs
Major+ = 10 per team per game, outs

In cross-division games, the HR Rule of the LOWER rated team applies. All teams at Reno are Major, so the limit will be eight (8) in all games.

The primary Field Director (Dave) at Golden Eagle Park in Reno is this year's Chairman (a rotating position) of the SSUSA Rules Committee and he would be more than happy to provide additional background information on this if you want to discuss it with him.
May 24, 2012
DD
Men's 60
71 posts
Is it correct to say (generally) the HR rules have remained the same as they were in 2011...EXCEPT when we play in Las Vegas? When we play in Las Vegas (the recent Southwest Championships and the upcoming fall LVSSA/SSUSA World Masters) HRs are virtually unlimited.

While we're at it, when we play in Las Vegas, we use the Trump "Rock" ball, but everyplace else we use the Trump "Stote" ball? Is this also the case? Both are evidently 44/375 balls, but the big hitters sure like the "Rock" better.

Inquiring minds want to know...please advise.
May 24, 2012
SSUSA Staff
1118 posts
That would be an incorrect generalization. The SSUSA Home Run Rules were changed for the 2012 Season, but do NOT vary from tournament to tournament. Only the SSUSA/LVSSA co-sanctioned events (Southwest Championships and World Masters Championships) will be using the Anaconda 'Rock' ball. The appearance may be that HR's are unlimited in those two tournaments because of the way that particular ball seems to fly better in the combination of Las Vegas altitude and humidity factors.

The 40-Masters HR Rules are as stated above.

The 50+ through 65+ HR Rules (all rating divisions) are:
Major+ = 12 per team per game, 1-up progressive, Walks
Major = 7 per team per game, 1-up progressive, Walks
AAA+ = 3 per team per game, 1-up progressive, Walks
Major+ = 1 per team per game, Outs

The 70+ HR Rules (all rating divisions) are:
Major+ = 10 per team per game, 1-up progressive, Walks
Major = 5 per team per game, 1-up progressive, Walks
AAA+ = 3 per team per game, 1-up progressive, Walks
Major+ = 1 per team per game, Outs

The 75+ and 80+ HR Rules are:
OPEN (unrestricted)
May 24, 2012
DD
Men's 60
71 posts
I read this thread again and understand the HR limits only apply to the 40/Masters...but my question on the use of different softballs still stands.

Thanks.
May 24, 2012
SSUSA Staff
1118 posts
DD ... "Asked and Answered" in the 3rd sentence of the immediately above Staff post ... We will be using the 'Rock' ball ONLY at the events held in Las Vegas that are co-sponsored by the SSUSA/LVSSA joint venture ... Therefore, the correct interpretation is that all other SSUSA events will be using the 'traditional' Anaconda/Trump/Stote Optic Yellow .44/375 ball you are used to hitting.
May 24, 2012
Jawood
Men's 50
788 posts
You're a 40+ year old pitcher in the Vegas tournament with the "Rock" ball and all the HR's are used up ... get the screen out!
May 24, 2012
DD
Men's 60
71 posts
Thank-you, SSUSA Staff, for explaining it again. Forgive my fit of wishful thinking...for a minute I thought sanity had returned to your rulemaking regarding homeruns in all divisions.

Once again, Major Plus is crying out for balance.

Timid managers will continue to sandbag. Who wants to play a 4-or-5 inning game with 24 or more balls sailing out of the park? With 9 runs/inning and unlimited HRs, that's what you've got in this division CONSISTENTLY.

Good ballplayers will avoid the top level because of the emphasis on offense.

Players who get the M+ "label" will continue to be penalized for their ability.

And great defensive players will eschew major plus because their skills are neutralized...while 350 pound FATSO (who can't run or play defense) gets to extend his career at the expense of someone else who runs for him.

Major Plus is supposed to be the best division in softball. Why then discourage the best ballplayers from playing it?

The fix?? Balance the game again.

LIMIT HOME RUNS.

MAKE THE EXCESS OUTS.

COMBINE MAJOR AND MAJOR +.

PUT MORE EMPHASIS ON DEFENSE.

EXTEND THE LUDICROUS TIME LIMITS.

GUARANTEE US SEVEN INNING BALLGAMES.

May 24, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
DD, you want balance? Get rid of the special bats. NO need for them at all.
May 24, 2012
DD
Men's 60
71 posts
I would not mourn the loss of composite bats for one minute, Gary, but I'm afraid they are an institutionalized evil...I cannot envision any scenario that would provide for their elimination...with the possible exception being a slew of horrendous injuries that could be directly attributable to their use. Other than that, which would be terrible for softball, I don't see it happening.

On the other hand, modifying dingers has been done. And quite successfully. It's a better game...and it will, in the long run, provide the solution for the problems associated with the top level...too few teams, sandbagging with the "Game of Five" or other variations, players being penalized for playing up, etc.

Just last year, SSUSA listened to the many complaints about time limits shortening too many games, reviewed the numbers, and FIXED THE PROBLEM with a simple but effective 5-minute extension.

They can do the same with this...I'm confident they will. I just don't have a year to give it while they do the research. I turned 65 last week and am slowing down by the hour!!
May 24, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
I can't argue with your first paragraph.

May 24, 2012
Marv19
Men's 60
429 posts
I'm with DD on this one guys. I know its not a total cure all but we use a strait one up and a walk. To date only the loaded up teams (H.R. hitters) have taken exception to this. Most of the time our games go 6 if not 7.
May 24, 2012
Lecak
Men's 55
1005 posts
DD you left out setting up the garbage cans in the parking lot and getting points for hitting balls into the cans. Your losing your touch deep breaths. From my limited conversations you cannot just legislate Major Plus and major and put them together. Let me ask you since you are major plus would your team give up the two East/west exemption players and go with border rules. Also major plus teams can just show up with any eleiglible player they want and don't have to qualify that player. If you want to add a player go with the same rules as the major teams, you should have to spend the money to enter a tournament, get hotels etc. etc. to get that certain player on your roster so you can move forward. I haven't talked to a major team yet who would bark about combining the divisions if the roster rules were the same for both divisions.

May 24, 2012
twotwo
Men's 50
23 posts
Thanks for the response SSUSA...My opinion is that the same rules should be for all divisions below 65...Why single out the 40's? It makes no sense, especially since the field distance will change in the move to Vegas...At least get rid of the OUT and consider over the limit HR's walks.
May 24, 2012
SSUSA Staff
1118 posts
All playing rules change proposals are open for discussion at the SSUSA Rules Committee meetings at the annual convention. This year, the Convention is in Mesquite, NV, in early December. We would welcome your presence and involvement.
May 24, 2012
Jawood
Men's 50
788 posts
With the merger of SSUSA & LVSSA, they went WAY overboard at the Major-plus level in regard to rules.

9 runs is too many for an inning, maybe 7, but we still like 5.

Will there ever be more than 4 innings played in a given game?

Isn't 12 HR's enough, why does it need to be progressive?

The 2 out of area player rule is a joke! Who can bring players in? The teams with the money! The rich get richer!

It was said there was going to be more teams bumped up to Major-plus but there is actually less now and the biggest reason is that teams now KNOW they can't compete with the top couple, with the rules of the past, they at least had a shot.
May 25, 2012
Webbie25
Men's 60
1952 posts
Dennis has some very good points and I am one that had to consider them when I made the decision to play with GSF this year. I have a few points to make.
1. I have advocated a 'measured step back' for years in the liveliness of the bat/ball combination. I remember before the composites that the alloy bats, doublewalls and the like with the 47/525 ball was lively enough that a lot of people were trying to ban them-especially the Demarini. It would take the edge off the speed of the game. A smaller sweet spot would make a huge difference, too. (Changing the ball has always taken time to get the flight right. The 52/275, classic M, etc. float out there). But, the game would remain lively with a lot of scoring, and that is what guys want.
2. In regards to major plus-I have now-for all intents an purposes, locked myself out of playing with the Desperados AAA after this year when they go to 60's next year. I wasn't sure I could still hang at that level, but the competitive side has wanted to try it again after all these years. They haven't kicked me off yet. Ergo, being classified major plus means I have to travel to play because GSF and Master Collision, Denver, are the closest teams at that level to where I live and both are almost 500 miles. But I would not change my decision. I have made a lot of friends and am getting to play with players I have only heard about for years. I'm very blessed to have that chance. Thanks to all the guys on GSF.
3. I enjoy defense as well as offense. The rush of making a good catch or throwing someone out on the bases is just as much as the rush of the long home run. While all eyes appear to be on the long, long flies, if you don't make the plays defensively in this game, you can give up an additional 5 or more runs real quickly, especially with the 9 run innings.
4. After worrying about hitting solo's for many years at AAA, it is nice to swing away and not worry too much about using one in the wrong situation. I still find myself apologizing for solo's. BUT, 12 solo's is only 12 runs, and that will not win many games at this level.
5. Dennis is absolutely correct about the 4-5 inning games. I already wrote Dave and advocated a 90 minute time limit if we are going to play the new rules. If you scheduled Major plus games 2 hours apart instead of 1 1/2 hours, that is only one game per field less in a 6 hour period, and there are not that many major plus teams, usually.
6. Jawood-the situation of the sponsored rich teams has always existed at this level.There will always be the teams that will do anything to have the best players to win. Steele's, Maverick's, etc. and their ilk will always be there-it is nothing new, and there really is no way to stop it.
7. Jawood-your last sentence of the previous post says it all-most feel the equalizer is needed to be competitive. I can see it for all except the top division. Those that play major plus WANT to play the best, and I think the competitive side wants it with the 'gloves off'-mano-a-mano'. For too many the 'fire in the gut' is not what it used to be, and they don't want to go out and get beaten like a drum to learn how to win at the next level. But for too many who have competed for many years without winning, the idea of having that chance is huge-and I believe SSUSA is right in providing the venue for our aging players to have that chance.Gary19 CONSTANTLY cuts down the rules because he doesn't get it. There is a much different mindset with most players out here. It is not like when we were younger we all thought we could be the best. There are no illusions any more. We know who we are in the game. I like the game SSUSA provides. Those of you that also support them-come to the convention in Mesquite and BE A VOICE. You would all be surprised at how much they listen and debate.
May 25, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
Mark, thank God I don't get what you allege others do.

If the mindset is not to win, and I would hope win with some pride on an equal playing field without contrived gifts, what is the point of keeping score and awarding people the right to buy their rings?

No, by definition everyone cannot be the best. So what? That is a reason to stop trying and start looking for handouts and contrived rules?

I did not know pride only exiats when you are below 50. But I am learning that for some that must be the case.
May 25, 2012
Jawood
Men's 50
788 posts
Webbie, I agree with you, like usual, but is the 2 out of area players really nessessary? Getting rid of just that would help a lot to make the Major-plus teams with no money (us) more competitive.
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