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Discussion: What makes it a "Senior" bat???

Posted Discussion
June 12, 2012
Ol Turkey
2 posts
What makes it a "Senior" bat???
This may sound like an obvious question for some, but I've been doing some research into slowpitch bats and I cannot find the difference between a "regular" slowpitch softball bat and a "senior" slowpitch softball bat. Is it just that they are approved for play in the senior leagues? What makes them different?

Thanks
June 12, 2012
Paco13
376 posts
Swing one and you will notice the difference. Let me put it to you this way the best shave bat does not compare to a Senior bat. Bullets thru the infield and probably 40-60 extra feet. It is like a magic bullet, 300 hitters become 500 hitter and 500 hitters becom 700 hitter...players that could not reach 280 at their prime now can clear 325. That in my humble opinion is the difference.

PR NINJA OUT...REMEMBER "...,JESUS TE AMA"
June 12, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4403 posts
You might prefer to get the answer from the board authority, Gary19...
But I'd make a "guess" that it is any bat with a BPF over the "98" standard.
Since USSSA is also at 1.20 like many of their bats allowed and are and or were 'senior bats' less the Ultra 2 and many others not at the 1.21 level as the new SSUSA standard.
Really come down to what is legal where you play senior ball.
June 12, 2012
Olden Slow
Men's 65
183 posts
Don't know the numbers..But I hit one out in Reno..Opposite field...I'm not a power hitter and not that big 5'11" @ 175 lbs. I have never hit an opposite field HR in my life...Just my .02..
June 12, 2012
Olden Slow
Men's 65
183 posts
Almost forgot..Miken Ultra SSUSA bat..Not broken in yet..Only 30-40 swings..1.21 bpf...Whatever the hell that means..
June 12, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
The proof is in the pudding.
June 12, 2012
Olden Slow
Men's 65
183 posts
I knocked the pudding out of that ball in Reno :-o)
June 12, 2012
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
A few years ago, someone got caught using a shaved ASA bat in Seattle. He was out hitting the Ultras by plenty.
June 12, 2012
HJ
Men's 70
443 posts
A senior bat is any bat which complies with the 1.21 bpf standard. Oversimplified, this means a ball will rebound further off this bat than a bat
which meets the 1.20 or other standards. If it doesn't say 1.21 it isn't a senior bat. As mentioned above, what is "legal" for any league is what the league says is legal. As a generalization, an ASA bat is less "hot" than a USSSA bat and a USSSA bat is less hot than a senior bat, but alot depends on how the bat is broken in and the standards are changing just to complicate things.
June 13, 2012
Ol Turkey
2 posts
Thanks gents...I am seeing things more clearly now. Now all I have to do is pick a bat from the too many bats to choose from.
June 13, 2012
Robo2
229 posts
I have heard the term 1.21 for some time, but does anyone know what this technically means and how are the bats measured?
June 14, 2012
HJ
Men's 70
443 posts
Robo, it is really complicated. There is actually a patented method how bats are tested which has changed over time. For $35 you can download the exact protocol from ASTM which is a scientific organization which sets testing protocols in many areas. Simply put you can't say a 1.21 is hotter than the old 1.20. For example, they used to test bats when new, now they simulate breaking in the bat so it is tested after it becomes hot. (They realized before that bats passed the test and then got hotter and wouldn't pass the test if measured after broken in.) There are also factors such as MOI which is why although 2 bats can weigh exactly the same amount, one swings faster and feels lighter than the other.
I do not understand this stuff and don't claim to. I know just enough to say that the numbers are meaningless. I think we are left with finding bats that "feel" right and then rely on people we trust to measure durability and hotness. The real problem is that it appears some bats are just defective, so you can have a bad version of a good bat. It appears that even for some senior bats the manufacturers will make it right if your individual bat is defective. Maybe we should only buy from reps who will try to make it right.
June 18, 2012
HJ
Men's 70
443 posts
I know there are 4 gentlemen who post here who sell senior bats. 2 sell mostly reeboks and 2 sell mostly Combats. I deeply respect their depth of knowledge on bats and practical experience.
My immediately prior post is my pitiful attempt to try to explain bat testing. I truly wish these
four gentlemen would post here and explain how senior bats are tested so we understand better concepts like BPF, balance point, MOI, etc. and how the factors affect the test results.
W/o any knowledge, I have a suspicion that the ultras may seem dead because the new testing protocol tests bats after a simulated break in period. My guess is the old ultras would flunk because they became too hot after break in and thus they toned them down to pass the test. It is
unclear how hot they will become. I could be totally wrong and these 4 gentlemen could help us
all in all these regards.
June 18, 2012
Tri18
671 posts
HJ,
Your post was accurate. You can split atoms but bpf means bat performance factor. Bpf is usually substantiated by testing rebound effect off of the bats. I am waiting now for some information from Miken regarding their bats and recent performance. When I have factual info I will post it. I do carry Miken, reebok, combat and worth. Alan tricoach18@att.net
July 31, 2012
surf88
Men's 60
903 posts
HJ: The bpf on each manufacturer is a result of a great deal of research and development including the method of manufacture and the materials used in the manufacture of the bat. It may be that multiple manufacturers use the same or similar manufacturing method but one or another may have access to a material that could increase the performance and/or the durability of the bat.

Clearly the senior bats have an elevated trampoline Bpf above and beyond the ASA/USSSA bats. I carry all the Reebok models. Thanks for your great question. Ed ed@ewandrews.com
Aug. 4, 2012
bkb555
99 posts
I relied on the reviews of Alan (tri18) when I got my U-trip Worth legit and my Senior reebok Melee both balanced versions.....he could have told me any bat was this or that but I went on his comments on testing and his reviews were extremely accurate...I am sure all the bat suppliers here sell good stuff but when you have actual testing and verifications on performance, you can't beat that ....as to the original poster, I wouldn't go so far as to say the ball flies 40 feet farther etc, but the ball does shoot off the barrel and it feels REALLY sweet when you get it.....if you are interested in a bat just ask /email/or call the bat suppliers on the site.....word of mouth is strong and we have enough "bat testers" out there who can vouch for what works for them...just research before you buy or ask a fellow team member if you can try a few swings with his bat...then go buy your own...lol
Aug. 4, 2012
HJ
Men's 70
443 posts
It would be sweet if more guys did buy their own-at least in my rec league.
Aug. 5, 2012
surf88
Men's 60
903 posts
I just returned from Western Nationals in Denver. I got a new shipment of Senior Melee's and ASA Melee's if anyone needs one. Thanks, Ed Andrews ed@ewandrews.com 970.729.3145
Aug. 30, 2012
surf88
Men's 60
903 posts
Started playing Fall Ball in Montrose, Colorado this week. In the high country of SW Colorado, ball is long over with and soccer has taken over. Used our Vector-O and our new ASA Melee last night. Although the balls used there are not of high compression, the ball jumped off the bat pretty good. As I break the new ASA Melee in more, I will share the information with all. Ed Andrews (970)729-3145.
Aug. 31, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
surf, is the Western "nation" electing a President this year too?
Aug. 31, 2012
softball4b
Men's 60
768 posts
Western National as is the Eastern National is defined as such to determine the two teams which will play in the SSUSA World tournament to determine the National Champion. This is also considered to be the first leg of the Triple Crown.
Aug. 31, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
So two "nations" play to determine who will play in the "Worlds", which crowns a "national champ"?

Aug. 31, 2012
softball4b
Men's 60
768 posts
Did I say that? Put that Master's Degree to work.

The National Champion is different than the World Champion. 1st leg of Triple Crown is the repective National, East or West, 2nd Leg is the East West Game winner, 3rd is the Winner of the World Tournamnet. Win all 3 and Triple Crown Champ.

I would have thought someone of your stature and status would be aware of such piddling details.
Aug. 31, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
My degree is working just fine, and you most certainly did. Try reading your own post a couple of inches above.

Don't worry, no need to apologize...:)

BTW, how can either the East or West hold 'nationals' when neither is a nation. Kind of like my county holding a high school tournament to crown a state champ.

And yea, I know the details, just amusing how regionals are now called nationals to sucker the sheep into attending.
Aug. 31, 2012
softball4b
Men's 60
768 posts
I have no proble apologizing when in error.....So, we are discussing semantics. I will suggest to Terry that in order to appease your sensibilities that he change the name of his tournament. Wait, I guess when you own the organzation you can call them whatever you want.
Aug. 31, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
(a) I essentially quoted you, and then you got sarcastic with me for using your words that you tried to deny having written. That is all pretty obvious above.

(b) Not semantics at all. The West is NOT a nation. The East is NOT a nation. No semantics involved, just proper and honest use of words and what they really mean.

Of course he can use whatever words he wants, even if the words don't have any integrity to them, and dopes and sheep are free to go along with it. No argument on that.
Aug. 31, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Winning a tournament is winning, no question about that. And I know there are guys who would attend regardless of the bogus name.

But trying to sucker other insecure, gullible guys in by calling them nationals and, worse yet, guys who want to say they are playing at 'nationals' or won 'nationals' is just not quite correct.

Aug. 31, 2012
softball4b
Men's 60
768 posts
46/36, you are right, again we agree. I am so glad you are able to recognize sarcasam in others.

Does not change anything I said.

Do you want Terry's email address, since you have such valuable insight.

Integrity, really, do you even know Terry, nevermind I know the answer to that? If you did, you would be ashamed to have written such tripe!
Aug. 31, 2012
stick8
1325 posts
Softball4b, not to split hairs here why not refer to them as the "Eastern Open" and the "Western Open" The respective winners play in the US championship game in which the winner is the US champion. (of which i've participated).
Those who are fortunate to win the SSUSA nationals in Las Vegas coming up can be called the national champions.
World champions is a little deceiving. Sure it sounds good and many of us are accustomed to calling it as such. Unless I missed them, I've never seen a team(s) from Europe, South America, Russia, Australia or any other country playing in Phoenix in October.


Aug. 31, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
He might very well be a great guy, but the simple truth is calling anything with only one part of a nation a national is disingenuous.

And my use of "integrity" was clearly associated with the word national, not Terry. That was pretty obvious to most.

stick, that would certainly be much more honest, though the East, West, and any other part of the only nation are regions. Using "Regional" might be best of all. But again, that word does not have the same cache as national.
Aug. 31, 2012
softball4b
Men's 60
768 posts
Stick8 - valid point, but my tweek was to the 46/36 Gadfly who always has a comment.

There will be teams from Canada and if other nations wanted to participate, I am sure they would be welcome.

Write away shirtless one, but I am moving on.
Aug. 31, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
"but I am moving on." Doubtful.
Aug. 31, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1010 posts
Dang Gary, you are always pissing in someone's Cornflakes... If they call their Tourney a World or National championship, so be it! Hell, winning any Tourney is an accomplishment no matter what you call it. Like you said we are all men with two legs and if your team beats the other team across from you, you should feel proud... Gary, I went to a 4 team winter world in the 40 two years ago and my team Beat NorthCal 40s for the Championship... One of my Buddies on NorthCal that I play leagues with was commenting like yourself on what a small and meaningless championship... I had to remind him that my Team with considerably older guys just whipped their ass for the championship...LOL! I said yeah you are right.. should of been better competition for us. LMAO
Aug. 31, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
swing,not trying to but I know you are smarter than to buy the notion of Eastern and Western "nationals".

a) it is just completely illogical and incorrect.

b) what is wrong with having some accuracy and calling it a regional?

c) Sure they can call it what they want, absolutely, but let's be honest and call it marketing to those who apparently need to think they played in or won a national.

d) Absolutely winning is winning, but does winning what it really is (a regional) make the win any less meaningful that they have to BS everyone about it?

Aug. 31, 2012
HJ
Men's 70
443 posts
1 league is called National and 1 is called American and the championship is called the World
Series. Anyone with any interest knows what this means and likewise for whatever SSSUSA calls a tournament. Can't we deal with substance rather than semantics games. Just stick to substance.
Aug. 31, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1010 posts
well Gary, I know there is about 9 thousand world and national championships each year... So, if that's what they call them, that's what you have won! is it absurd, of course it is... It's all about marketing and no matter what they call it, it's still just as much fun playing and competing! Gary, you said you were a Cancer survivor, dude, Don't sweat the small stuff. A few Silly names on Tourneys is no big deal at the end of the day!
Aug. 31, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
swing, that is about 8,999 too many....:)

No sweat at all, though thanks for the thought, I just dislike deception. Maybe I just grew up in a time when I thought there was at least a few more morals and principles. Maybe I am wrong....:(

HJ, this is not semantics. It is just flat-out incorrect use of the language. Is it legal? I suppose, though I do sometimes wonder if "truth in advertising" applies to this at all.
Aug. 31, 2012
HJ
Men's 70
443 posts
There is no deception, for truth in advertising someone must be misled. Does anyone really have false allusions about these names, no. Ok, maybe
at the first tournament when you might think it means something more than it does, but that's it.
In a former life I was a wordsmith so I am sensitive to the truth, precision in language and
use of language to mislead. As with many of your
"issues" there is no issue except in your mind.
Literally you are correct, national doesn't mean national, but there is no issue and you are making no point. It is like in the middle ages arguing about how many angels can fit on a pin, it just doesn't matter. Let's try to talk about real issues and real substance not technical playing with words when everyone know the truth and the technical words are irrelevant. Using the
vernacular, just get real.
Aug. 31, 2012
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
Gary19.....what this 46/36 about. I know you're not that tall and Shirley you can't be that big?
Aug. 31, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1010 posts
Becareful Salio2k, next thing you know is that Gary will be suggesting to take off his shirt with you! Not that there's anything wrong with that! LOL
Sept. 1, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
"Ok, maybe at the first tournament when you might think it means something more than it does,..."

HJ, so you are saying it is okay to mislead once. That all advertisers or the like are allowed one mulligan?

And again, I only said I sometimes wonder about that, but I do wonder. Why else are they not called regionals? It is something consiously done by the association, and they must have a reason.

Gee thanks, swing....:)
Sept. 1, 2012
mad dog
Men's 65
3958 posts
does this nation of ours have a western and eastern sides to it.....hence western national,eastern national.......
Sept. 1, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4403 posts
Mighty Mississippi is the separator.
Sept. 1, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1010 posts
Don't mention it Mr 46/36 ;-)
Sept. 1, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
That will live with me forever, and all because you said I was fat.

Damn you......:)
Sept. 1, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1010 posts
PMSL
Sept. 1, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1010 posts
BTW I didn't say you were fat... someone told me you were Fat.. Big difference!
Sept. 1, 2012
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
Gary19.....I thought the 46/36 was just referring to your pants size, sorry.:)
Sept. 1, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1010 posts
you were half right Salio, don't be to hard on yourself.;)
Sept. 1, 2012
steve65
Men's 65
177 posts
not having a "masters" although I did manage to master kindergarten--oh wait I cannot lie kindergarten did not exist when I started school--anyway to my feeble mind Rastern or Western National chanmpionships mean the tournament is a National event to be held in either the East or the West with each being open to teams from the entire nation--whether teams from the west choose to enter the East version is up to their descretion and vice versa---also I believe if a team from Japan registered and then entered either tourney they would be accepted---so whats all the fuss about!!!!!! and sadly I measured and I am 45/35 not bad for my head and neck huh!!!!
Sept. 1, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
steve, what tournament is not open to anyone who wants to enter regardless of where they are from? What TD is going to turn down any team's money?

So, by that "logic" every single tournament is a national.
Sept. 1, 2012
steve65
Men's 65
177 posts
just did a little research---SSUSA lists 81 tournaments of which 8 contain the word National---slightly less than 10 percent---4 contain the word world----and then I reread the comments on this thread which is titled "what makes a senior bat" and once again Gary19 kidnaps the thread for his illogical point of view--plain and simple a relatively small number of tournaments are termed National hence this subject is not really important--besides the great one admittedly does not pay his money to play in them so the naming of such is really none of his business--I gladly pay my money to play despite whatever the name of the tournament---
Sept. 1, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
"I just returned from Western Nationals in Denver. I got a new shipment of Senior Melee's and ASA Melee's if anyone needs one. Thanks, Ed Andrews ed@ewandrews.com 970.729.3145"

surf's post from August 5th. And I "kidnapped" the thread? What a joke.

"steve, what tournament is not open to anyone who wants to enter regardless of where they are from? What TD is going to turn down any team's money?"

And you never made an attempt to answer an obvious and direct follow-up to your post. Still a joke.

Keep knocking my degree. And keep showing whatever education you have.
Sept. 2, 2012
steve65
Men's 65
177 posts
once again Gary you show your ignorance---anyone can--like you--knock a pasttime that is enjoyed by hundreds if not thousands---all of these men and women pay their money and participate and those with complaints voice them along with possible solutions--as I stated I gladly pay my money and PARTICIPATE in whatever tournament my team wishes to attend-----your "degree" I do not know if you even have one but allowing that you do--the degree did not give you the intelligence to offer solutions or the sensitivity to allow you to realize that no one cares for your constant negativity--
Sept. 2, 2012
Ho
235 posts
Gary:

I can give you five tournaments who turned down teams, they were DAYTON FIRST FLIGHT; THEE BUCKEYE CLASSIC; HEART OF OHIO; SYLVANIA and HOOSIER CLASSIC.

Teams were turned down for various resaons but mainly ratings.

Ho
Sept. 2, 2012
softball4b
Men's 60
768 posts
TOP GUN IV San Clemente, they were full.
Sept. 2, 2012
Ho
235 posts
Shelbyville (36 teams) and THEE Buckeye Classic (77) were full..DAYTON (32), SYLVANIA(36)and COLUMBUS (40) could have taken a few more. As I mentioned, all five were AA and AAA events.

Ho
Sept. 2, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Ho,

If you turned teams away for ratings or even capacity reasons, I get that. But I just wouldn't think too many would turn a team away just because of where they are from.

I doubt if you would turn a team away just because they are from Oregon. Or Alabama. So in that sense, by Steve's definition, all tournaments are 'nationals'. But we know that is not the case.

Sept. 2, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4403 posts
All assn's have their catch words, National, World, etc, etc, but are only words. Some do have specific area relationship.
Any team from any place would likely be welcomed. And they do come from all over to play ball. I have played twice against Japanese teams in years past.
I don't really care for the T names, but they are only names.
But if it bothers you continue to stay home. I usually do, but not because of a name.
Play ball, where ever you can.
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