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Discussion: Team Points

Posted Discussion
July 10, 2012
Beasley
Men's 50
169 posts
Team Points
For those interested, I started a project and have part of it finished.

I've been working on a "Point System" for Senior Softball. Rather than repeat some of the info I have there, you can go to www.seniorsoftballcentral.com and click on the Points button.

John Beasley
Senior Softball Central Admin
Team 1 Sports/Renegades
July 10, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4360 posts
Many assn's use something like this even in SR ball. Nothing new.
There are varying 'degrees' of championship events all of which are used in one way or another to "rate" individual players as well as teams.
That applies to qualifiers or the others.
One way or another they put you where they want or keep you where you are. Performance or lack of it, changes made in the roster or a move to different age group all effect ratings, but if roster doesn't change and you go up in age grouping, I doubt you'll drop a rating.
There are 22 MAJOR events for the year, each of those are used but I think those should have more weight than used, for a move up.
The other events should be used but at slightly less value for the win.
Those major events are not equal as to team representation ie numbers, filled brackets, and those are the ones where concern need to be used. Not really a big win if only a couple other teams are in it with you. Even tho TOC gets those. But they matter because they made it there. Even more weight for the PHX, Reno and Vegas events which are usually well supported.
Bottom line is, It is what it is.
July 10, 2012
Beasley
Men's 50
169 posts
Responded to this post on the Senior Softball Central forum.
July 10, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4360 posts
John,
Won't be going there, because I do not feel I need to register for another site.
You posted here, I replied here.
I did the same on the site that was up for a year. Posted here so others would know what was also available on the other, but they could view it all too. Only needed to reg if you wanted to post.
So no harm, no foul as it were.
Hope it comes together for you. But the bottom line is still the same.
Say hello to Alan for me.
July 10, 2012
Beasley
Men's 50
169 posts
I understand Alan.

And yes, I'm trying to draw the discussion to that site to generate traffic. I know it gets to be a pain in the butt with all the different sites/forums. But that's why I that a central site would work well. It's going to take some time though.

Basically what I replied there was that I didn't do the points for the associations. I did it because I thought it would be cool to rank the teams within a age group and then a classification. But could an association look at a teams performance in all the sanctioning bodies and base a classification on it - certainly.

One of the things I found when doing the "system" was that you can't mix the classifications because a good Major+ tournament may draw 4 teams where the Major in the same tournament would draw 20. IMO ranking all the classifications together gives the lower classifications a leg up on the higher classifications.

I concluded by saying that "IMO if a team wants to be considered one of the top teams in the Country, then they HAVE to play in the top classification. If you're happy with being a top team in your CLASSIFICATION, then so be it but don't confuse the two."

Thanks for the feedback and I also hope things come togehter.
July 10, 2012
Beasley
Men's 50
169 posts
Sorry Scott, I'm such a putzzzz.

I'll see Alan this afternoon for some BP and let him know you said hey.

I'll also change my board where unregistered users can view the messages but a person needs to register to post. You make a good point.

Thanks again.


John
July 10, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4360 posts
Don't fret over it.
Thanks for the change to come.
Hope to meet you both sometime\someplace like so, so many others on here.
Stay safe & healthy.
July 10, 2012
Beasley
Men's 50
169 posts
Scott,

The change should be in place now. Thanks again for point that oversight out.

Our next tournament is in two weeks at Dalton. If you're going to be there, let me know when you play and maybe our schedules will permit some time to have a cold one and talk some softball or whatever.

After that, I'm not sure where we'll be but it would be nice to put some screen names with some real names and some faces.

Take care.


John
July 10, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4360 posts
John,
Only a few assns share results, thus the skewed off balance ratings. The go with what they have or believe.
They are within the same ages\ratings overall but since they combine both at times they are even worse off.
You correct on the numbers game to a point but most teams attend the same events over and over no matter where they are.
Looking at the start off points you give I wonder why different since you say your doing them separately.
I think one issue is number of like teams in bracket. Say the same four teams play once a month, and the others only play once evert 2-3 months. Numbers will increase for some not the others. How do you level that out?
I think using numbers for say total run scored, or runs held to is better than XX number for entering it. Especially when the two mentioned, M & M+ get different points. Even it the # of teams entered are different they both play the same number of games unless they play the same teams over in a best of 3 deal which really sucks.
The brackets less that 4 teams are really a problem. Even 4 isn't so hot. But you see 1,2,3 & 4 all the time.
Keep going, you might set something out of it...
Just my opinion here.
Some interesting stuff there.
July 10, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4360 posts
PS John,
I'm lucky to play at all here, no Dalton for me.
Thanks though.
July 10, 2012
Beasley
Men's 50
169 posts
Scott,

I hear your concerns and at some point they may need to be addressed. But for now everything is based on the number of teams entered and a teams final result.

Lets say there are 4 teams. Each team starts with 12 points. The team finishing 1st gets an additional 150 points for a total of 162 points. Second place gets 110 points plus the original 12 for a total of 122. 3rd place gets 90 plus the 12 original points for a total of 102 and the 4th place team would have a total of 92.

That I've seen in crunching the numbers so far, the same 4 teams haven't played each other month after month. Even if they did, they haven't had the same finishing order. But just for grins, lets say that Avenue Towing (only because I saw they name mentioned in another post) plays does play a National tournament every month and happens to play the same teams and finishes 1st in all those tournaments. Then shouldn't they get the points? If the other teams want to get the points for 1st place then they should find a way to win the tournament.

But you do have a couple good points:

1. I don't get the results from the other associations..... yet. I'm doing some talking to one of the other associations now to see if we can work something out. But you know something, IF (and that's a big if) the points become relevant and the different associations want their tournaments to count for something more than just being a tournament, they'll make the information available.

2. It would be great to give a team credit for run scored or runs allowed. But then you'd have to find a way to rate the opposing teams offense and defense. That way if a team scores 25 runs against a team that is a great defensive team then they get higher points and if they hold a team that has a very high "team OB per centage" to a minimal amount of run, they would also get a higher level of points.

But for now, it is what it is. And at least it's something - a starting point.

John
July 10, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4360 posts
I agree on the D part. Could be either objective or subjective depending on where the info come from. Only place that 'might' be neutral is taking how many inning were over in less that 3 outs by means of 5 runs scored. Another story there....

Why not like a horse race, win, place or show. 3 for win, 2 for place, 1 for show....OR reverse and its a golf game, lowest score wins...
Ok, I'm nuts. But simple is better.
SPA, SSUSA & ISA share some info still I'd think. How much is the question.
And with different rosters between them poses another problem.
July 10, 2012
Beasley
Men's 50
169 posts
I don't know if every aspect will ever be covered. I can try to impliment what I can, when I can.

Going with a win, place, show system like you mentioned would probably work but I tried not to reinvent the wheel. The system I'm trying to adapt is being used in Conference USSSA and seems to be working. I didn't research some of their boards to see if there were a lot of complaints or not. But we have one problem that they don't have there - classifications. They give points for the Smokey Mountain Classic regardless of a team being Major, A, B, or E. If your part of the conference and play in one of their tournaments, you get points. I doubt a 50+ AA team is going to want to come to a tournament and play the Major+ teams by the Major+ rules. It's hard enough trying to get 50+ Major teams to play the 50+ Major+ teams without some type of handicap.

I've talked with a couple sponsors about providing the points champion with some type of award. Just some initial discussions to float the possibility. And it probably won't be much until the points begin to mean something - IF that ever happens.

I mean, it may just be something that I play with to occupy my time since I don't have a real life - so I'm told.
July 16, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
999 posts
I think NCSSA should be added to your points list... SPA is not even coming out to California this year so Cali teams would get penalized in your format! IMO
July 16, 2012
Mr Ed
Men's 55
10 posts
SPA is have a western national tournament in Hemet Ca. on august 30th to sept 3rd. the info can be found on the SCSSA website www.socalssa.com Teams from Nevada and Arizona are planning on attending.
July 16, 2012
Omar Khayyam
994 posts
swing for the fences, good point. NCSSA would provide an attractive source of data with its 55 scheduled tournaments and 100+ teams.

Mr. Ed, thanks for the info about SPA coming to SoCal. Our team enjoyed the SPA format in Reno last year, and they made a 5 year commitment to us to keep returning there so we helped them with info on how to build the number of teams. But they cancelled the Reno tournament this year, and evidently for years to come.
July 16, 2012
Beasley
Men's 50
169 posts
Swing, Omar,

I went to the link provided by Swing earlier today and checked out NCSSA. I'll have to do some more checking.

As I mentioned earlier, I'm trying to only include tournaments that qualify you for a National/World/TOC/World Series. So far, the tournaments I have listed do that. That I saw the NCSSA tournaments don't.

I'll probably get beat up over that but I guess it goes with the territory.
July 16, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4360 posts
Better recheck the Yuba city events a couple are usually posted for Q's for some.
You'll need to read flyers because not are.
They usually post them for SSUSA, since they are in bed with them as the saying goes. Most of the rules are same.
NCSSA is good but the web site sucks now.
July 16, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
999 posts
Beasly, I just wanted to point out that in some of these NCSSA Tourneys the Talent might be as good or better in some cases than the nationals Tourneys all over the country in SPA and the other sactions. Just for your rating critera I think it should be counted because of what teams are playing it and how well these team perform in SSUSA and on the national level.
July 16, 2012
Omar Khayyam
994 posts
Beasley, you're correct that most of the NCSSA events are not qualifiers, but as taits points out, some are. What you do have is excellent teams, nationally powerful and respected teams, who are going head to head in norCal with teams that don't travel as frequently, but which can beat them and the best.

The reason taits said the website is poor is that the webmaster, Bob Strand, unexpectedly passed away. When he was in charge, the site was perhaps the best in all of softball (scores posted the same day! directions from YOUR home to a tournament, once you let a cookie on! Links to all important softball organizations and sites! Weather report for next tournament!). What a loss his death has been and will be. So far, no replacement webmaster has stepped forth.
July 16, 2012
Beasley
Men's 50
169 posts
Taits, Swing & Omar,

You guys present a good case. I'm still cyphering on it and it's possible I'll use a few of the tournaments. I'll have to talk with the NCSSA to see what we can work out.

I'm going to do the same with the other associations (SPA, ISSA, etc) to see what kind of agreement we can reach. If I can get the results, I'll probably try to figure out which are the most popular tournaments (besides World, World Series & TOCs) and use them.

At some point, who knows, we may even crown a "points champion".

Just wait until I try to do a batting sheet with OB%. I'm sure that will create a stur.
July 16, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
999 posts
LOL Beasley, for what it's worth you are on to something that I find interesting and in need of to the softball community.. it will need some tweeking, but you are working on it and I look forward to your finished product... you are off to a great start!
July 16, 2012
Beasley
Men's 50
169 posts
Thanks Swing, I appreciate that.

I hope that it gives teams and players the recognition they deserve. There are a lot of fine individuals playing Senior Softball and a little recognition will go a long way.
July 16, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4360 posts
There will be a couple wild cards or jokers in the mix, that being the different rosters used within any one assn or between the different ones attended by same team.
You can find that now as it is. There are always exceptions made somewhere. for players or where teams are placed*. * that refers to up or down ratings &\or age wise.
The different assns do not rate the same which is another one eyed jack in the mix.
Either way on 'points' 'champ, those who play more\win more... receive more.
Not necessarily the best there though.


July 17, 2012
Beasley
Men's 50
169 posts
Taits,

You're absolutely correct, those that play more will earn more points and the team at the top doesn't necessarily mean they are the best. And at the same time, a team that happens to win a World Tournament doesn't necessarily mean they are the best, it could just mean they got hot, were very fortunate and the bounces went their way that weekend. I don't know if there is a sure fired way to crown a Champion.

But a team that gets out and plays and places in the majority of the tournaments they play in, will probably come out on top.

I guess the bottom line is - if you want to say home and win Yard of the Month, don't expect to be crowned as the points champion.

July 18, 2012
Marv19
Men's 60
435 posts
I need to jump in here to make sure the topic of SPA coming to the west coast is for real and not a rumor. Its a National event titled appropriately the Western Nationals. The web site provided by Taits is correct. As for Ridge promising he'd be in Reno for 5 years you can ask him about it there because he will be at this event in person. Any other questions you can email me at wwm1@adelphia.net
July 18, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
999 posts
Spa is going to be in Hammet CA in Sept 2 I believe.. with the worlds in SSUSA in Oct beginning. it might not be in the cards for teams north CA to go all the way down the Hammet! just saying..
July 18, 2012
Marv19
Men's 60
435 posts
That would be Hemet CA. Apparently 33 teams think otherwise so far :O)
July 19, 2012
Omar Khayyam
994 posts
Marv19, good signup so far for the Hemet tournament on Labor Day weekend. Our team thought about it. We were planning on going back to SPA in Reno that weekend, but decided Hemet is just too far. How many of the 33 so far are norCal teams?
July 20, 2012
Marv19
Men's 60
435 posts
Omar: With about 6 weeks left 7 teams from out of the area. MO, AZ, CO, WA, NorCA and NV
July 27, 2012
Tri18
608 posts
Beaz,
How many negative points did we accrue under the system for sleeping through Dalton?
A
Team 1 Sports
July 29, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
999 posts
hey Tri, thanks for getting me the Wintercrest so fast...
July 30, 2012
Tri18
608 posts
You are very welcome! I just got in another box as a lot of guys hit me up for it! Kept me going in Dalton for sure. Got to get Beaz some for his keyboarditis. Counting all those points is tough.
A
Team 1 Sports
July 31, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
999 posts
I gave my buddy Mike Rennels your email.. he will be ordering a tub shortly... cheers Allen!
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