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Discussion: Should SSUSA ever bump a team?

Posted Discussion
July 13, 2012
Tim Millette
483 posts
Should SSUSA ever bump a team?
There has been on going discussions about merging Divisins or breaking up Plus Division Champions just a little.

My question is.....

If SSUSA is going to allow major Plus Champions to stay together in a Division they have already proven dominant in.

Why shouldnt SSUSA allow AA, AAA and MAJOR teams to stay together and continue to participate in the Division they have proven to be dominant in?

July 13, 2012
Jawood
Men's 50
794 posts
I guess the answer would be there is nowhere for dominant Major-plus teams to go ... there isn't a "Super Major-plus" division. But like I said in another thread, at the 50+ level, there is only one team that fits that description.
July 13, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Tim, the Major+ guys are already playing Varsity. While not everyone will be able to, all others should be aspiring to that goal. Or at least as close to it as they can.
July 13, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Why do so many want to punish teams for being successful by making them break up? Another example of Socialism in senior softball.......:(

Success is much sweeter when you pass up those ahead of you, not by making them fall behind you through contrived means.
July 13, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
998 posts
Tim, I believe that if you moved a bunch of 50 Major teams to the 50 major plus then the would be room for these major teams to complete at the plus level and have opportunities to win tourneys.. The problem is when you just move one team at a time, you have the major teams having to compete against the best three or four Major plus teams in the area like here in California.. It doesn't seem reasonable to want to move up to play the same 3 dominate teams.. now if you moved up 15 teams in CAlifornia and we could play someone beside Sommerville, Longhorns and Demolition, it wouldn't feel like being fed to the wolves! I'm sure that in these major plus teams that have been dominating wouldn't have Tourneys such an easy time of it getting past 10 team brackets and the major teams that were moved up might give them a run for there money here and there and might even knock one of them out of it... IMO One or two team move up to major makes it tough on those two teams and most likely will end up breaking those teams up at least here in CA where we have some dominate teams!
July 13, 2012
Tim Millette
483 posts
Until you figure out a way to turn over the top your never going to grow plus ball.

Obviously turning over the top has helped the AA, AAA and Major Divisions.

As far as the varsity statement goes....

I look at senior Divisions more like college....JC, independent, D3?, D2, D1.

Sure, on a rare occasion a lower Division team "could" win a game here or there but.... It would be called an upset for a reason.

I really can't see why anyone, other then a very few, would be against trying to regulate Major Plus in the same manner every other Division is regulated.

It's not a new concept for anyone but the elite Plus teams which are hurting the Plus Divisions to begin with.


And.... There is no way SSUSA should merge the two top Divisions.... The only guys wanting that are the limited plus players and a few guys wanting to get back to plus ball.

From what I have seen SSUSA has every division "about" right, other then Plus.

Maybe they should continue to let Plus wither on the vine, as a castoff for travel teams that are to good for Major and not wanting to break up.

Two last questions.....

How many teams in the last six years or so, have fold up when they were bumped to 50 Major Plus?

I wonder how many of them would have tried to stick it out if the top Plus teams were weakened just a little?

These are the type of questions SSUSA needs to ask themselves.
July 13, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
998 posts
Well, I know East bay Oldies are not able to complete at that level... they should be down in major until they move to 55s..IMO you know our two teams have beaten them I believe 8 out the last 10 times...
July 13, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Tim, interesting point. Though the difference I see is the same person can, and usually wants to, progress throughout their "career" from Freshmen to JV to Varsity. Players in college don't move from D-3 to D-2 and to D-1 in the same manner. But that sort of upward movement is readily available in senior softball, as it is in high school.

To artifically weaken the top teams just sounds like Socialism. And like I said, the greater achievement and reward is in passing up those ahead, not finding contrived ways to pull them behind you.
July 13, 2012
Tri18
608 posts
Tim,
While your question is relevant I'm a little confused by this...I should note that I am just starting in 50 M+ softball. We have never once had more than 4 teams in a M + tournament. If all the associations including SSUSA were following their rules and guidelines we would have a lot more teams to play? We end up in 2 team round robins or playing major teams while giving up 5 runs or an additional fielder. Can you or anyone else shed some light on this? Sorry...didn't want to derail your thread...you can attend to your part first but would appreciate your insight at some point.
AT
Team 1 Sports/Renegades 50M+
July 13, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
998 posts
Tri18, I would be all for moving up top major teams, just not one at a time... this is not going to strengthen the Major plus division if you don't give the teams you send up a chance to compete with full teams of elite players which are paid for and brought in from all over. Tri18 how much do you sponsor your team for.. My Barons team has self sponsored all year... Need a real good major team to represent... Let me know :-)

I believe that the Dynasty team or teams we are talking about had a little region miles rule we could get around some of the problems with teams dominating Major plus.. My Team the Barons has everyone withing 150 miles. populated area's like NorthCal and SouthCal shouldn't be able to fly guys back in fouth in the major plus division.. This only stacks a team when they have funds to do this and most teams don't have those kind of resources.. I know players that will only play if they have a free ride, not that they are that good but this is their mentality..

If you are going to grow the top division, you have to make it more competitive than doing what's happening now!
July 13, 2012
Tri18
608 posts
I agree...I help our team as best I can but we are basically self sponsored at this point. We have just assembled our team and our guys are all from Miami through Orlando. A bunch of them played previously as Morgan Keegan I believe but we have added several good players while dropping a few others. I agree...EVERY association should be actively observing and moving teams up to Major Plus. If they don't that division will never really have enough teams to entice teams to play in it. Since this is my first year of senior ball, I was hoping to get input on why this hasn't happened or what is the history behind the whole division thing. Interested in everyone's experiences here...
Alan
Team 1 Sports. Also...looking for a sponsor!
July 13, 2012
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Maybe its time for M+ to have their own National association. Grouping all M+ teams in the country. It seems most of the M+ teams dont have an issue with travel.
It would certainly be quite an undertaking but would solve the isuue of small tournament entries or so it would seem.
July 13, 2012
Beasley
Men's 50
169 posts
If there wasn't a Major+ classificaiton, where would these players be? Sure, they may be scattered on different teams in the beginning but don't you think that they would eventually migrate to a good sponsor and still dominate that classification - whether it's AA, AAA, or Major?
July 13, 2012
donll
55 posts
Tim,
I agree with Jawood. Nobody is ever asking a AA, AAA, or major team to "break up", they are asking them to "play up" in the next division. Once they get to major plus there is no place to ask them to play up to.
July 13, 2012
Mario
Men's 50
378 posts
Tri18, I have only been playing 50 Major Plus 2 years now and it makes no sense to me to see all these Major teams that could move up and compete, stay at the Major level. Its no different than back in the day when there were only 4 Super Major Teams. The difference in Senior ball is everybody wants to have the big teams play down to their level. Not like going to the Smokey and getting you brains beat out by one of the 4 Super teams. I for one wanted to play the big teams, thats how I ended up on one of them. If a guy wants to play on a better team, you better be playing them and prducing!!!
July 14, 2012
turn2
484 posts
They should give players a chance to move up also. I had a (aaa) player that wanted to play on my major plus team for the Las Vegas Worlds and I was told he could play but the next year he would be marked a major plus player and he would no lonfer be allowed to player there. What if he did not like playing major plus or just didn't like it?
At least give players a opportunity to move uo and try this before branding them major plus. How will we every get any players to move up like this?
Donnie
July 14, 2012
Beasley
Men's 50
169 posts
Mario, Donnie, both very good points. Just because a player plays on a Major+ team doesn't make them a Major+ player. Classifying a player Major+ has to be done carefully considering both their defensive and offensive capabilities.

Is the player a dominating force on a Major+ team or are they a very good player that contributes to a Major+ team.
July 14, 2012
Tim Millette
483 posts
Mario, back in those Smoky days your team still had a World to go to where those Super teams were not allowed. Good job on sneaking in the "I played the Smoky thing"....But.... You kinda proves my point.... ASA Super died of the same sickness Senior Plus ball has. Not turning over the top teams so new teams believe they can compete. Back in the Super days if ASA HAD INCORPORATED A ELITE LOST TO GO ALONG WITH THE ASA METRO REQUIREMENTS MAYBE TGERE WOULD STILL BE A SUPER PROGRAM.

Once again..... ALL I AM READY IS A BUNCH OF PLUS GUYS SAYING WE NEED MORE MEAT, FEED US THE MAJOR PROGRAM.

Eliminate the ability for individuals to build power houses that are at the top of the Plus Division almost year and things should improve.... I have suggested a concept that in my opinion should be tried..... Maybe someone else could come
up with a better idea to regularly turn over the top Plus teams...... Let's hear them....
Anythings better then hearing the Plus Division continually crying about needing the Major Division fed to them.
July 14, 2012
Tri18
608 posts
Mario,
I agree...back in the day we all worked on our game so a major/super major team would pick us up. Then it was moving to a better and better team within the division as we improved. The problem here is if you do play m+ you have few teams to play and not many opportunities in other places too. So....why aren't all the major TOC winners from the past couple years in m+? and the same question for all the other associations. Is there a reason why these teams are not being moved up?
Alan
July 15, 2012
Tim Millette
483 posts
Alan, my guess is most major winners are bumped.... Few stay together, electing instead to disband and spread out to major teams.

The real big question should be......

Why can't the powers that be see, allowing the Plus winners to stay intact year after year is making it almost impossible to entice Major teams to move up?
July 15, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
998 posts
Tim, I don't have a problem with a move up here in CA if they moved 10 major teams at the same time... Just don't want to play the same three teams that have full sponsorship every Tourney... Would be a better situation for a bunch of top major teams to move up so the collective have a chance to knock the so called Elite teams off their perch... I would love that challenge... Our 12 Angry men team did it out of SF to JKInc.... I believe we are the only team in the country with a winning record against this Elite team in 40s.. but sending one team at a time to a 3 team major plus division is sending them out to fail.. IMO.. The rules of the out of the region pickups is making those Elite teams stay elite without the chance of an un-sponsored team from the major division able to compete IMO.
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