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Discussion: Platooning is what we need

Posted Discussion
July 3, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Platooning is what we need
Here we go again.
Platooning, guys.
Just like they do in Football.
Those guys figured it out and
they don't have any brains at all.

You can field whomever you want on Defense
and bat whomever you want on Offense.
They could be the same guys like we do now
or potentially, 10 or more, additional guys.
Platooning will:
increase revenue and participation
raise the caliber of play
prevent injuries
prolong player careers
create more player fun and enjoyment

C'mon guys.
Before it's too late to change anything for the better.
What do you say?


July 4, 2006
Dbax
Men's 60
1280 posts
I think it;s ridiculous.
July 4, 2006
Stones 1B
Men's 55
52 posts
Hey Einstein novel idea...

Dbax...ridiculous?

All any league or tourney needs to do is try it and teams that want to platoon, platoon and teams that want to play "regular" play regular. No problemo.

I'll bet in a touney w/alot of teams the plattooners would be alot fresher going into the final games whether they come out of the losers or winners brackeks.

Novel idea? Ridiculous?
Heck I'd play...Dyin fo play.
July 5, 2006
Hit the gap
Men's 60
146 posts
I can't think of one player I know that does not want to get his chance at hitting. If I'm busting my butt on defense, I certanily want my chance to hit. On the flip side, I'm sure that there are many who would be happy just hitting and not doing the hard work of playing defense. Just my 2 cents.

Men's 60
July 5, 2006
Dbax
Men's 60
1280 posts
Hit the Gap, I couldn't agree more! You need to be able to do everything to play this game. If you can only hit, you can already be an added hitter. Rules also allow that you can pretty much bat everyone in the lineup.
July 5, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
I can think of 3 major plus teams in California alone
who use shortstops irrespective of their hitting
because their defense is so importantly good.
I know guys who are way better on D than O
and wouldn't mind being employed in a game
instead of having to sit on the bench because another guy is a better hitter.
I know guys who hit and can't field for a variety of reasons and they would love just hitting.
So would their managers and the rest of their teammates
and their fans.

If you see past the nose on your face
you'll be able to see much value in platooning.
July 5, 2006
Ken
Men's 55
462 posts
Einstein, what are you putting up that nose on your face, lol? The best players are the COMPLETE players. This is almost a platooning game already, with the ability to bat everybody (at least in most org.). Now you want the guys who are better defenders to not hit, and bat the best 10 more often. The whole idea of playing is to play the complete game, not just half of it. The M+ and Major teams are already complaining that they donít have enough teams in their division (and theyíre right). This would deplete the numbers even more. Or are you going to get your defenders from Major and deplete their division? I canít imagine 10 good defensive ballplayers enjoying watching 10 knuckle draggers flailing away at the plate in a 3 or 4 inning game (if that). And if youíre got guys sitting on your bench because they donít hit as well as others, well, maybe they ought to be in Major or AAA where they could enjoy playing all the time. I respect your opinion, but this would disrupt the status quo to the point that all divisions would be affected just to get 10 guys on each team in M+ more ABís. Thanks for listening.
July 5, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Ken,
You used LOL after your comment about my nose
(think Cyrano de Bergerac)
so I'll keep my comments light hearted back at you.
You referred to the best players being complete players.
What about the rest of us?
You're not a snob are you, who thinks he's better than
everyone else?
Most players even at the major plus level are better either as hitters or fielders.
It's darn few who excel, as perhaps you do, at both.
And even you could use a breather so you could lead your team to victory in a long, hard National in let's say
Alabama in September, couldn't you?

I didn't invent platooning.
I'm not that smart.
But I get it.

It would increase player participation,
help prevent injury
prolong player careers
increase revenue
increase the level of play
keep players fresher longer though long, hot tournaments
and
increase both fan and player enjoyment
in many, many ways.

These effects will necessarily occur the second
leagues move to sanction platooning and as mentioned above it can be implemented effortlessly at any time.

Let's hear you argue against any or all
of the points I've made
or why you think all these benefits to all those people
would not be worth making a change.
July 5, 2006
Ken
Men's 55
462 posts
Einstein, of course Iím a snob who thinks heís better than everyone else. When you look up the term ďsoftball playerĒ it says it right there. Most people think I wear XL shirts because of my protruding abdomen, but itís really to get my head through the neck hole. But I still think that platooning would cause more problems than help, and hereís why.

You suggest that it would increase player participation (by having 20 people in your line-up). Where are you going to get all the players, from your bench and lower divisions? Then what happens to the lower divisions? We need more teams, not fewer teams with more players on them. Itís hard enough now to convince new 50 yr. old prospects that senior ball isnít beneath them. Can you imagine explaining to a new player (who says, as they all do, that he still plays with the young guys during the week) that he can only expect to play on one side of the ball? Fat chance.

Player enjoyment? Again, I think you would have a hard time convincing enough players that they arenít good enough to either play defense or hit for their teams (see the definition of softball player mentioned above). As for the rest of your points, they would be hard to determine without implementing your idea, except for the part about fan enjoyment. We donít have to worry about that Ďcause we donít have any that arenít married to us, and even thatís a stretch, lol.

I hope you enjoyed my attempt to answer your points and I hope other guys will chime in with their opinions. If you are successful in getting a tournament together under these rules Iíll try to get my team there. Good luck.
July 6, 2006
Dbax
Men's 60
1280 posts
Ken wins!
July 6, 2006
Lecak
Men's 55
1012 posts
My experience has been that typically a tournament team would have 13-14 players and at most 11 bat, meaning 2 or 3 guys get reduced time. Einstein how nice would it be if all 13 or 14 could be available interchangibly while still leaving a batting order of 11 and obviouly 10 in the field. Over a 6 game tournament I would bet that all 13 or 14 except for a few get equal at bats and equal rest. If most rosters are 13 or 14 I don't believe it would rob from any other team or division it would just better utilize your roster and would probaly eliminate the fellows who see reduced time not participating because they don't feel their getting their money's worth. I think the overall level of play from beginning to end would be better.
July 6, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Ken,
A witty and thoughtful reply and much appreciated.

DBAX, whoever you are,
Ken wins?
Ken wins what?
The fact that he said he is better than anyone else?
The fact that he thinks it would drain players from lower teams?
The fact that he would support and come to a tournament that allowed platooning?
Hey old dude,
this ain't a contest unless you want it to be
and if so I suggest you lay down your camping knife
and try to find a gun to bring to the battle
cause you are sorely overmatched.
What do you think about the points that have been raised?
Do you think about the points that are raised?
Do you think at all?
Let's see what you got?




July 6, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Gary,
Don't worry.
Thinking and real debate
never killed anyone.
I simply encourage thoughtful responses
to my thoughts and it tends to bring out the worst in me
when someone reduces the merits of our argument
to some kind of contest.
I do find that immature, too.
What do YOU think about Platooning?
Would it help or enhance the senior game?

July 6, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Lecak,
I find your response thoughtful and as such
is greatly beneficial and appreciated.
I think its a great way to work players into a game that also increases rather than decreases the level of play
and there's a lot to be said for using a lot of players during long, hot tournaments
that willhelp all players stay fresher, avoid injury
and keep their performance up.
July 6, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Thanks, Gary.
That was honest and refreshing and
I respect the notion that "if something
ain't broken, don't fix it."
July 9, 2006
TexasTransplant
Men's 70
420 posts
The platooning idea might have some appeal to heavily sponsored teams that pay travel expenses. I don't know very many players who pay their own way that this would appeal to. Guys who pay their own way are going to want to play most of the time.

I also think that most teams would have a hard time finding 20+players to play a full platoon scenario.

A variation might be to all a couple "designated hitter" (ala the American League) instead of the 'extra hitter" that many teams use today, In effect , you would be platooning a couple of positions.

Personally, the game wouldn't have the same appeal if I could only play one way.
July 9, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Tex,

Good comments.
I get it you don't want to platoon.
Most guys wouldn't I think.
But a lot would.
What would it matter if you played
a platooning team with your stalwarts.
Would you care?
Should you?

What about when one or 2 or 3 of your stalwarts
as happens a lot in hot, summer tourneys
get hurt?
Wouldn't your coach love the flexibility
to avoid a drop in team performance?
I've been hurt when I couldn't swing and I've
been hurt when I couldn't throw.

Now, you respectfully miss one point.
We should all be playing to win and be willing to do
whatever helps the team.
Come on, Tex.
You might be the exception but most guys are better at one or the other.
Tell the truth.
And proper utilization of skilled guys
would help any manager on any team
that wants to win.

Football has been platooning regularly
since the 50's and the level of performance
has dramatically improved for obvious reasons.

When you play any tournament
if you want to win
you always have guys 11 through 20
who would benefit from role playing
to be "involved" and feel like productive
members of the team.

Lastly, for now,
guys like Hennesey and Ridge
would benefit from increases roster size
and wouldn't necessarily be opposed
to it.
As a matter of fact,
they should be pushing it
for all the right reasons.

Einstein

Platooning works
and would work wonders for Senior ball
at all levels
if employed.




July 10, 2006
Dbax
Men's 60
1280 posts
Looks like a poem, but doesn't rhyme.
July 10, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
DBAX,

I like poems that rhyme, too.
They're much simpler and easier to understand.
And this might come as a shock to you
but having taught english of couple of years in high school,
poems don't have to rhyme.
Really.
Look up Haiku or Carl Sandburg
and you'll see.

Trying to get you back to the point
which is proving difficult,
what do you think about any of the reasons
I cited that would make platooning
the way to go in Senior Softball.

And if you have nothing to add to the converstation
why you don't you just shut up
and just in case you have trouble figuring it out
that would be the classy and smart thing to do.

E
July 10, 2006
Dbax
Men's 60
1280 posts
I already
told you
my opinion.
If you are hurt and can't play
defense
you can still DH
Everyone on the roster can hit.
If you are a great defensive player
but not a great hitter
you tell them they can only play defense.
there is no
need for it.
that's preety funny that you taught English.

July 11, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey DBax,
Drop the Ax.
The war is over.
I feel bad for going after you.

I don't believe in forcing or beating
or torturing or killing anyone
to see things my way.
It may be un-American to some.
But, that's just me.

I still think Platooning would invigorate
the senior game, instantly, meaningfully
and effortlessly.
And as said before, if a team doesn't want to do it
that's fine.
They can still feel they're better because they're old school and play both ways.

So there.
We can coexist easily even playing against one another.
You guys can play both ways and we'll platoon.
And we can both have it our way.
What do you say?

And more guys should weigh in on this, fellas.
What do you think?
It could help us a ton.

E


July 11, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Gary,

Seniors already have special rules
from the game we've played for 40 years.
Plate-mat
Yellow base and scoring line
5 run innings
Overrun bases
No sliding
No stealing
Just to name a few.

And, mind you,
all or most of these have worked fine.

Gary, just imagine what football would be like if the same guys went both ways.
They figured it out a long time ago that platooning
would save players , increase participation
and raise the level of the game
at the same time, effortlessly.

If you take health, overall participation and giving one's team the best opportunity to win
as the most important reasons of playing senior softball
Platooning enhances all of them at the same time.
Again, just use football if you want to see how it fleshes out.

And the more you look at it
the more sense it makes.

E
July 12, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
OK, Gary.
Physical demand versus football.
Great point!
What about 6 games in Central Cal
3 on Saturday in 90 degrees
3 on Sunday in 90 degrees
playing shortstop, let's say.
40 or so innings...
the equivalent of 4 and 1/2 nine inning games
over 2 days...
at 50 + years old.

There's a legendary NorCal ball player who
will go unmentioned who fell out from the heat in a tournament 5 or so years ago.
on the ground in a duggout in Modesto
body cold and shaking in 90 degree heat.
His coach told me he' been declining ever since.

I lose 5 to 10 pounds a weekend playing softball.

Respectfully, Gary,
I disagree.
July 12, 2006
Hit the gap
Men's 60
146 posts
Here's a simple comparison on platooning and dating a Playboy Bunny.

Think of it this way.:

One guy (the defensive player) gets to take her out to dinner and drinks and gets to pay the whopping bill.

The other guy (the offensive player) gets to pick her up at the restaurant, take her home and do the wild thing.

The third guy (me) wants to do both. :-)
July 12, 2006
Lecak
Men's 55
1012 posts
Gary I'll add Menifee CA had to be 100 to 105 last weekend. I'm sure that the players in the Southeast would even trump this with the 90+ heat plus humidity.
July 12, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
HTG,
Got it.

You want to do both.
Actually so do I but others might not want or be able to.
And here's something critical.
Would you, should you sit for a teammate
to get some time in a game
to rest yourself and/or to give him a chance
to work out and feel like a member of the team, too.
Would you block your coach from putting a specialist in your spot to help the team win?

E
July 12, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
HTG,

I had a conversation with Larry Campbell
one of the best players and men is senior softball
about winning softball games and he and I
agreed that it's not hits that wins real competitive games
it's "take a ways", they are, getting outs on great defensive plays that rob the other team of hits and momentum.
Simply put,
stealing hits is the key to winning the most competitive
games.

So that means, playing D is at least as important to the fun of playing softball as hitting.

I've seen defensive players dominate a game from their position.
Great pitchers do it all the time.
Guys like A/C of the Old A's and Mickey Hughes of
Courtesy Auto.
These guys are the MVP's everytime they play
and has nothing to do with hitting.
Would they give up their stick to a better hitter?
Do you have to ask?

Would I play just D to help my team win?
Of course, I would.
Would I give up AB's to get my buddies on the bench some swings so they can be involved and keep their games sharp
as we grow and develop our squad.
Of course I would.

July 13, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Of course I played football.
And basketball, too.
I played on the same college football team
as Marv Hubbard.
He was even better, then.


July 13, 2006
JoeHardy
11 posts
einstein, you are very entertaining. Platooning in softball, yeah right. You talk about injury prevention, players not getting tired, and who knows what else you can come up with. Maybe these players you are referring to should get in better shape. Maybe they should think of playing another sport that is less demanding, or maybe stay home and watch TV. Like someone else mentioned, we already have modified rules because we are seniors. Pretty soon this game will not even be a softball game if we keep modifying the rules. It's softball !! not football. What next, halftime after the 3rd inning. 50+ cheerleaders cheering for us in front of our dugout (oh, wouldn't that be a sight). Maybe a team mascot running around the field everytime your team scores a run. It's getting rediculous. Let's get back to just playing good old softball. Most of us have been doing it most our lives and we enjoy the heck out of it or we would have stopped long ago. Leave the game alone.
July 14, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Yeah, yeah.
Me like Cheerleaders, too.

Hey Joe,
Great name.
Terrific comments and thanks.

So you don't want to change.
You don't have to.
Your team can play traditional, both ways,
against mine, anytime.
What do you say?
Bottom line, Joe.
You and I are just 2 votes.
It's what most of the other guys think
that will make or break the argument.
Maybe Ridge and Terry are looking at the website
to gauge which way to go.
Weigh in.
What do YOU think?
July 14, 2006
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
I totaly support this concept for a couple of simple reasons.

1. It would increase the level of play if implemented correctly. Example AAA teams could give it a real shot at major and major teams could give it a real shot at major plus.

2. Let the guys who can hit it go ahead and hit it while letting the guys who can really go catch it, go ahead and catch it.

Guys like the author of this (Einstein) is no doubt the best defensive 2b, 3b or pitcher in the nation for senior softball while hitting 750% most weekends would be a 2 part player. He is so far ahead of most guys with this innovative idea that i doubt it will catch on but i believe the real problem to be that most players want to play untill they drop anyway regardless if it helps the team or not. Being an unselfish team player is the only way this concept would work.

IMO

MK39
July 14, 2006
bashbro1
Men's 60
266 posts
Einstein: We were all taken by your theories of both General & Specific Relativity which spawned the most recognizable equation to mankind: E=MC2!

However, Websterís definition of ďPlatoonĒ in the Senior Softball sense of the term is rather pejorative.

Platoon:
Noun.
1. A subdivision of a company of troops consisting of two or more squads or sections and usually commanded by a lieutenant.
2. A group of people working, traveling, or assembled together: a platoon of firefighters; buses carrying platoons of tourists.
3. Sports. A group of players within a team, especially a football team, that is trained and sent into or withdrawn from play as a unit: the defensive platoon.
4. Sports pla∑tooned, pla∑toon∑ing, pla∑toons

v. Transitive.
5. To play (a player) in alternation with another player in the same position: platooned the two catchers.

v. Intransitive.
6. To use alternate players at the same position.
7. To take turns playing a position with another player.
8. Senior Softball: An outrageous idea of having 20 players on the roster of which 10 bat and have fun, while the other 10 poor souls play defense and take all the criticism!

Bashbro1 Playing out of Kent, WA for Ruth Realty 60's
July 14, 2006
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
bashbro1

Try this one on for size. below is Websters definition for the word (TEAM). Read it slow and realize that nowhere in it does it ever say I OR ME. It always and only says WE like in a real Team of 20 guys who can share time and camaraderie and a winning attitude without feeling left out.
Please pay special attention to this one listed below (To harness or join together so as to form a team. ) Try to understand what it means to Harness and join together to form something special.


team ( P ) Pronunciation Key (tm)
n.
Sports & Games. A group on the same side, as in a game.
A group organized to work together: a team of engineers.

Two or more draft animals used to pull a vehicle or farm implement.
A vehicle along with the animal or animals harnessed to it.
A group of animals exhibited or performing together, as horses at an equestrian show.
A brood or flock.
Obsolete. Offspring; lineage.

v. teamed, team∑ing, teams
v. tr.
To harness or join together so as to form a team.
To transport or haul with a draft team.

v. intr.
To form a team or an association. Often used with up.
To drive a team or truck

Try having a more open mind, we are in out twilight days now and it would not hurt to share with a fellow ball player a couple inning here and there. Senior players are having heart attacks playing softball???? Sometimes Quality is better then Quanity.

IMO


MK39, Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports/Worth 50 Major Plus team out of California.
July 14, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Bashbro,
it took me a while to sift through that document of yours
to realize you weren't really saying anything.
So, you don't like Platooning.
All right.
Give us a all a break next time
Just say it.

I'll try it, again.
Reasons why you think Platooning would work?
Reasons why you think Platooning won't work.
Get the idea?
Reasoning is the key.
Not running your mouth
and wasting people's time.
Got it?
July 15, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Sorry Bash,
There I go again.
I have the toughest time
with mocking opinions that don't make any sense.

Of course, defense is every bit as important
as offense in any competitive contest
and most informed folks say
it's more important.
And you know something,
it requires more athleticism and skill development,
too.
I don't see the negative side of playing Defense
or playing just defense if it helps the team,
at all.
July 15, 2006
JoeHardy
11 posts
Hey einstein, you do have some valid points. But this is still the game of softball. What makes it so competitive and fun to play, is you meet another team that hits the heck out of the ball and your team has a great defense and a lot of speed. Now, let's see who is going to win. It's the challenge. Two great teams facing each other with different types of players. Each team using their teams skill to overcome the other team. That's the beauty of playing softball. I feel that platooning will just develope nothing but home run derby teams. What fun will it be if a team has 10 guys that hit the ball out of the park most of the time. Then the other team comes up to bat and does the samething. Where's the fun in that. And, do you really think the 10 defensive players are only going to want to play defense. Most guys that are just hard plying ground ball stoping animals with great arms are usually great athelets and competitors. Believe me, they are going to want to have their turn at the plate. I see platooning causing more problems than just solving the problems of the players that become tired, injured or are just not that good at offense or defense. That's why ssoftball has different levels of play. If you want to play at the higher of highest level, the physical demand and skill level is higher. Maybe I'm old fashion, just my input on your subject,,,,,,
July 15, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Joe,
Where you going with that gun in your hand?
Excellent points and thanks for the thoughtful response.

First, the best hitters aren't necessarily home run hitters.
I played with Courtesy Auto in Tahoe and their best hitters
of the tournament, 2 of them seldom hit the ball more than 200 feet, Ferret and Springer.
Second,
platooning only means up to 10 guys.
Most Senior softball games are played with 13 or 14 or 15 guys and platooning would mean having all of them playing all the time.

I think bench time is the worst.
It sounds like you never spent much time on the pine
but it tends to deaden the participants and blankets them with low, bottom-feeder expectations which become
self fulfilling in short order prohibiting them from realizing their potential and helping their clubs.
They become ego fodder for the "better" guys on the team
to keep THEIR expectations high.
Platooning would give them a chance to feel better because of their more active participation
and perform better which would help them and their teams.

Now, I'm gonna say it.
You take the same 15 player team, with and without platooning and the team with platooning
will be a healthier and better club and over time
will play better and longer.
July 16, 2006
JoeHardy
11 posts
einstein, you are too much. I love Jimi Hendrix, great music. Well, enough said about platooning, let's see where it goes. Good luck to you and stay healthy,,,,,,
July 17, 2006
bashbro1
Men's 60
266 posts
Hello Einstein. I sincerely apologize if I came off as flippant in my previous thread regarding the subject at hand of platooning players in Senior slo-pitch softball by having a separate offence and defense like in the game of football after the two-way system was abolished! I will be more serious in my following thread using logic and argumentation skill I acquired @ the University of Washington Law classes.

The platoon system in baseball as I understand it is a method of designating two players to a single defensive position; usually one right-handed hitter and the other one a left-handed hitter to hit against the opposite throwing arm. Typically the right-handed half of the platoon is played on days when the opposing pitcher is left-handed and the left-handed hitter is played against the righties. The theory behind this is that generally players hit better against their opposite-handed counterparts because of the curveball and sidearm motions that aim right toward their body. We do not have that scenario in slo-pitch softball because the ball is lobbed up to the hitter and there is little or no break on the ball most of the time to be of a concern.

Switch hitters ďbeatĒ the platoon system in baseball. Baseball hitters have an easier time with a pitch that is breaking from outside of the plate into their power zone. Players, on average over the years, have more trouble hitting a ball that starts at their body and then breaks over the plate sharply at the last split second which is not the case in slo-pitch softball. As a result of some hitters stepping in the bucket on curveballs and sliders brings some managers to use left handed hitters against right-handed pitching and vise-versa for the percentages of hitting success. Baseball also does some platooning by splitting games between home run hitters and speedy contact hitters as the ball park dimensions and conditions. Granted, there are some late-inning defensive replacements which is also a form of baseball platooning between two players which is in line with what youíre ascribing but itís not the primary purpose of platooning in baseball.

The managers I remember growing up that were famous for making a habit of platooning players were Earl Weaver and Casey Stengel. These two managers primarily took the journeymen players who had lost some of their defensive skill and base running speed and would platoon them with younger players not yet considered fine hitters due to lack of experience in the league. No where can I find in my research where a player stated he really enjoyed being platooned. I just donít believe it would be viable strategy in our game today even if it gives some guys a good blow at times. The Senior slo-pitch ball club I play for makes certain not to burn out players in tournaments by carrying a surplus of outfielders. We use a simple rotation in our outfield so that you at least sit every (2-3) innings for (1-2) for some welcomed rest but we still hit! Another thing thatís been mentioned in the threads above is that many times your best defensive athletes are also fine hitters and all-around ball players in general that would hurt the team if they did not play on both sides of the ball.

Furthermore, over the years a baseball ball-player is measure by five major attributes not two or three::
1. Hitting for average
2. Hitting for power
3. Base running skill (also speed)
4. Throwing arm
5. Defensive skill

The platooning youíre referring to works well in football but wonít on the diamond as in my opinion strikes at the heart of doing your best to be a complete ballplayer no matter your age or physical condition. There are other ways to give players rest and keep them involved in all aspects of the game.

Bashbro1-All-World NASCA/SSWC 2005 Des Moines, IA
July 17, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Thanks, Bash.
That was a fabulous reply, thoughtful and interesting.

I think it's safe to say that at 50 +
we can no longer compete, 1 to 1 with open players of any age.
I can hit the ball farther now, but overall,
my 21 year old self, would kick the crap ouf of my
59 year old self, every time.
So I think we don't have to stay pure with the game
as it stands unless we want to.
We're slower and our motivation is more to play well, fairly
and stay healthy than go ass over tea kettles to win
like we did when we were younger.
That's why something as easy to implement
as platooning which necessarily yields:
higher level of play
less injuries
more participation
longer player careers
more revenue and
better team chemistry
should be given serious consideration.

We already have special rules being seniors that make a ton of sense and were smart to implement like
moving the rubber back, extra base,
equalizer home runs and
commit lines.
I see Platooning as a legitimate member of that set.

Thanks, again, Bash.
See you at the next one.

E

July 22, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Anyone else?
C'mon guys.
Weigh in, yeah or nay and why
and maybe we can get some action on it
from the tournament directors
sooner than later.
July 27, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
OK.
No one really countered any of the arguments
given for platooning and I'm concluding
that there really aren't any.
I'll tell you something else.
When baseball started, less was more.
You only had a few guys so they HAD to play both ways.
But just like in football
the minute we go to platooning
it will take over cause it makes so much sense
making us wonder why we didn't do it sooner.

Platooning creates more, healthier, and higher level participation immediately.
It's definitely an upgrade for Senior softball
if not all softball.

I vote open all tournaments, local, regional and national to platooning electively immediately
so that any team can do it
and no team has to.


July 28, 2006
Lecak
Men's 55
1012 posts
Gary how many have you played to date and how many will you play? That may help explain where Einstein is coming from.
July 28, 2006
Lecak
Men's 55
1012 posts
Games.
Aug. 7, 2006
BigLou
26 posts
Hey Einstein,
I think JOe HArdy makes a very good point about platooning. If you platoon then you might get 10 guys that hit the ball out of the park every at bat. Then where are you. Then what good are your defensive specialists?You'll have taken the defense out of the game. When teams are configured now you usually have one or two bombers who hit it out every time. Guess where they play? Usually catcher or DH. The trick in developing a good team is to have a balance of good hitters and good defensive players. Sometimes you put a slug in right field because he can hit and you want more offense in the lineup early on. You get a lead and you put a defensive replacement in. Thats part of the beauty of baseball/softball. How you uses your bench. Its like a chess match-played on many different levels. It makes coaching strategy a factor. You take that away with platoononig. Also in senior softball the best hitters are the guys that hit the ball out of the park. You mentioned Courtesy Auto in Tahoe. Different game. Different rules. In that tournament you get 3 homeruns and then its an OUT! So you have to keep the ball in the park. You need guys with bat control-need to keep it in/save homers etc. It's almost an advantage to not be able to hit it out. In your platooning system in senior softball there would be no need for guys like Springer and ferret to even hit. You would have 10 monsters crush it out every time.
In conclusion- I think platooning in senior softball would eventually take defense out of the game. It would also take out strategy. Sometimes the best moves are the ones not made!
Maurice (the gangster of love)
Aug. 7, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Big Lou.
Where you been all my life?
Terrific comments.
Now, who says the best hitters hit the ball out all the time.
Guys that get on base all the time are the best hitters
in reality. Right?
They do more for the team than knuckle draggers
don't they?

There's an entry on this website that a tournament with Bruce Meade in it in St. Louis and it
had only one ball hit out
the whole tournament.
I play with and against the best hitters in Senior softball.
None of them average two homers a game in any competitive tournament.
Also, who's pitching while all these bombs get tossed?
It sure wasn't me or A/C or Mickey Hughes or
Nate Lawson.
Sounds like you and some of your friends will benefit from the DVD I'm coming out with about pitching.
Back to the issue of platooning
I think the MANY benefits of platooning
make it worthy of very serious consideration
in softball at any level, but especially in Seniors
where going both ways efficiently gets harder all the time.
Thanks, Mo.
Great comments.
See you at the Creek.
Aug. 8, 2006
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
ok ive read enough time to chime in
joe your quote
Would I play just D to help my team win?
Of course, I would.
Would I give up AB's to get my buddies on the bench some swings so they can be involved and keep their games sharp
as we grow and develop our squad.
Of course I would

now i've played with you and against you,you will only leave a game only if they carry you off.
big lou has the best pt. if you make up a team with 10 fielders and 10 batters where does stratgy come in.what you put on the field is what you should be hitting,including your ep's(dh's).most all of senior ball lets you hit anywhere from 12-15 hitters.learn to use it.
my opinion is you play the field you hit-man law
Aug. 8, 2006
4x4
Men's 65
595 posts
I have to agree with Maddog on this one. With 12-18 players on any given team and the freedom to bat 10+ there should be more than enough talent available to sufficiently and effectively "platoon" enough to keep a good defense on the field.

As much as this is a "hitters" game it's amazing how many games come down to defensive miscues coupled with walks. Let's face it, you might get 3 or 4 chances to tip the balance of the game with a plate appearance if all the conditions were right. That being said there are 21 outs that need to be made by the defense it seems to me instead of "platooning" and changing the game like football as some suggest maybe we should all work on our defense a little bit more instead of taking that area of the game for granted. Defensive lapses are what everybody remembers and gets pissed about and talks about after the game but not everyone is willing to work to improve in that area but everyone wants bp.

I don't know about anyone else but I tend to remember and enjoy the plays where I have robbed someone of a hit longer than I do the round trippers or gappers. Hitting at this level is easy and let's face it. At this age if we could no longer hit we wouldn't be out there doing it.

Hang in there Maddog. Thanks for the bat advice. Pete

Aug. 10, 2006
claw
4 posts
Einstein,
Hmmm, sounds like I am one of the guys in CA used "irrespective of their hitting", so here's my opinion of another option. How about if each association were to allow ONE, not a platoon, DH at the Nationals ONLY? Personally, if it were used always (for me as an example), I would simply give up the game. There might be others for whom it we work out just fine.
Claw
Aug. 11, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Claw,

You're one of the best shortstops in the world
irrespective of your hitting which is pretty darn good, too,
but it wouldn't matter to the argument.
Platooning would allow you to field and not hit
giving way to a teammate who is either better at hitting or who can't field a lick.
And who says it has to be every inning of every game.
Platooning just provides the flexibility to deal with a number of important variables maximizing the opportunity
to get more players in a game.
Aug. 11, 2006
claw
4 posts
Einstein,
I don't think platooning will solve the serious problems at the upper (Major/Major+) divisions. I don't believe the lower divisions are concerned about this, either. Maybe platooning makes sense in the 70 and over to encourage larger team sizes. I think that instead of encouraging players to become specialists by creating a platoon system, we should encourage players to become better all around softball players. All rules at all levels should encourage the players to play the game right. At present, the game at the highest levels has become offensively skewed, especially for power. That to me is the number one reason why there are so few competing at that level. Certainly there are plenty of quality all around players in AAA (and Major) that, absent the total emphasis on home runs, could compete at any level. As you surely recall, in the 70's and 80's the game got out of hand, what with A, B, C, D etc. and no real way to regulate. Until the basic equalizer, limiting HR, came to be heavily used, tournaments were a joke. Platooning is an idea that makes some sense, but if you are looking for it to make a difference in Major/Major+, I don't think it will. I say limit HR to 4, up to 8 is a single, then 9 and above are outs. Bring the game back to the rest of the players so that all teams are encouraged to move UP, not DOWN.
Aug. 13, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Claw,
You remind me of one of my favorite quotes
from the original Dracula movie
with Bela Lugosi,
"For a man who has lived
but one lifetime
you are very wise."

I think you're right that Platooning won't SAVE
senior softball but I think it will make things significantly better.
The things you talk about like
too much home run offense,
are not really related to platooning
one way or another and that's OK.
It sounds like we can co-exist without having to go at
each other.
That's hopeful to me on many levels.

I support changing the rules about home runs, Claw,
if it will truly help.
I think figuring out a way to painlessly get more players
into any game, that is, platooning,
will help, too.


Aug. 15, 2006
BigLou
26 posts
What you are failing to realize is that Senior Softball takes defense out of the game by design-the 5 run rule. A great example of this was evidenced at Menifee this past weekend. The Mavericks a 50 major plus team were playing in the 40 division . I watched them play Courtesy Auto (a 45 team that plays competitive rules ). They were using the Senior rules (5 run walk off). Even though the players were roughly the same age Ė Courtesy Auto has I believe 6 players over 50 and another 3 that will turn 50 next year- the difference in overall ability was quite noticeable. This is because Courtesy plays competitive ball all year against young kids. If they donít get them out they stand in the field until they do. They built their team with a balance of defense and hitting.

The senior rules kept the game artificially close. Courtesy got the Mavericks out 1,2,3 in the first inning (0 runs), but the Mavericks didnít record three outs against Courtesy until the 4th inning after something like 34 batters. Well the score would have been 28-0 after one inning! You donít need too many beatings like that until you redesign your team, one that incorporates the balance between defense and offense. Instead the 5 run rule allowed the Mavericks to walk of the field and hit without ever recording a single out several times. What motivation is there to build balanced teams? The emphasis is on getting your 5 runs every time- what is the best way to do that? Answer- get the best offensive players. As the claw says the game is offensively skewed because there is a social welfare program for defense (the 5 run rule). Keep in mind the Mavericks are a good team at the Senior level. But theyíre playing at the Senior level, itís a different game. So for those of you lamenting the loss of defense at the Senior level, donít blame the players, blame the game.
Maurice(the gangster of love)
Aug. 15, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Big Lou,

I hope that 5 run rule doesn't get too popular
but it really keeps another team close to a more powerful team which can be a good thing at times.
I like the fact that when we go to Nationals
they almost always, like the USSSA in Salem,
have unlimited runs.
We took out a terrific team in 3 innings 28 to 3,
for example.
But for local tournaments, to keep things competitive
the 5 run rule makes real sense.
But I don't get how defense is devalued
in either format because if you have great D and keep the other team from their 5 run inning
you maxmize your chances of beating them
just like when it's open scoring.


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