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Discussion: Why remove teams from a Division?

Posted Discussion
July 30, 2012
Tim Millette
477 posts
Why remove teams from a Division?
Why does senior softball remove teams from the AA AAA and MAJOR DIVISIONS when they allow dynasty's to stay intact in plus ball?
July 30, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
981 posts
You must have a really really good Major team this year... if so, don't wory about your next division! :-)
July 31, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
Is Plus meant to be the best of the best, or the best that crybabies will allow to play together?
July 31, 2012
rightrj1
Men's 55
202 posts
Tim I here your team has been sandbagging in the Major's division and not playing in SSUSA events, so that they won't get moved up to plus...Is that the reason for all the move up questions?
July 31, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
981 posts
Tim is just trying for a softer landing in Major plus...
July 31, 2012
softball4b
Men's 60
722 posts
Until Tim's team wins something at the National Level, there is nothing to talk about.

There are a number of teams that look good on paper or have players that have competed on great teams, but for whatever reason don't put it together at the right time.

It is not sandbagging unless you win it all. I have nothing, but respect for Tim, Wes, and Gary. ( I don't know who else is on the team)
July 31, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
981 posts
softball4B... I have great respect for Tim, Wes , Gary, Glen,Rick, Wayne,! Just think when you add to top M plus players to this group you need to get out of Majors.. IMO.. Not playing in the two Sanctions I mentioned will keep you from being moved up Automatically... Sandbagging=not playing in order to not move up in my book!

Last year was Last year.. MTC didn't get moved up, so what's the problem.. none.. Now this year,he has won one tourney in NCSSA and that is all that's on the Radar as far as SS. Not playing is not giving anyone any gauge of how good or bad they are this year... Like I said earlier, if he stays pat with his team I doubt that anyone is going to complain.. if he adds two major plus players to that team, he will have issues.. End of story!
July 31, 2012
softball4b
Men's 60
722 posts
And when he wins, then he will move up or if he submits a roster to a tournament with:

• §15.1(1) B. 3. A ‘Major’ team roster shall not have more than three (3) players with a team affiliation rating history during the previous two tournament seasons greater than Major.

He will then be Major +, till then, it is a non issue.
July 31, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
981 posts
Tim has been worried about moving up for three years.. the players I listed above are known for top ball striking for years.. adding two more plus types on that team would be over the top IMO.. He flew under the radar all year and gets to play in the worlds now.. He hasn't had to move up, nor should he.. If he picked up who we was trying to then I would say go play with the big boys, you have 9 M+ players on your team now! End of story!
July 31, 2012
softball4b
Men's 60
722 posts
Rich, I don't doubt Tim has a great roster. He did when we played together, but if the players on his roster have not played Major + within the past 2 years then for all intents and purposes they are Major.

There is a fine distinction between building the best roster you can build as opposed to sandbagging.

Personally, I have no problem playing at the Major+ level, let me rephase that, playing on a Major+ team. Sometimes I wonder if I am in over my head, but I like playing at the highest level available.

Proof is in the pudding. If any team wants to fly under the radar until Nationals, then they run the risk of not playing to the level of their competition when it counts.
July 31, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
981 posts
Well, I know Tim has issues on D with his roster, but he does have some major plus talent ball strikers.. adding two plus ball strikers to his team would of made him more than a major team IMO. Like I said before, he has a good major team and we have missed his team in North Cal and SSUSA tourneys.. would of been nice to play them and get a measuring stick against what I believe to be one of the top Major teams!
July 31, 2012
donll
55 posts
Tim Asks "Why does senior softball remove teams from the AA AAA and MAJOR DIVISIONS when they allow dynasty's to stay intact in plus ball?"

You've had this answered several times and you just don't seem to get it. In no division do they "remove" teams-they MOVE them, either up or down. There is nowhere to go up after major plus. There is nowhere to MOVE them to. So they would have to then "remove" them- something they don't do in any division. I know its not the answer you want-but its consistent. I know you've said several times you want to grow the plus division. If you are taken at your word then you must understand that you don't grow a division by REMOVING teams!Do the math.
July 31, 2012
donll
55 posts
Tim,
Here's a question for you. Lets say SSUSA wanted to follow your logic and move a dynasty team, and they moved them down to major. Just that 1 team. Would you play major or go up to major plus. You could play a bunch of major teams and then maybe only have to face the dynasty team once if you got through the bracket. Or you could go play all the other plus teams in their tournament without the dynasty team. What would you do? What level would you choose?
July 31, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
981 posts
Don11, I would think that makes more sense than bringing up one team to get knocked around.. I even think it would be more of a challenge for that Dynasty team to get through a 30 team bracket at the worlds in plus!
July 31, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
981 posts
meant in Majors if combined!
July 31, 2012
Tim Millette
477 posts
Well... Let's see... First the stuff about our team.

Two yeas ago we did not go to Reno, or the cal cup.... We did play western regionals in Woodland but that was a 50 minute drive.

Last year we did not go to cal cup, western regionals was in Vacaville, a 30 minute drive.... We played in Reno

This year we did not play Reno or cal cup.

So really.... To this point we have missed a grand total of one SSUSA event more then we played on average the last two years.

Calcup was nothing more then a NCSSA event (maybe one new team)..... Reno was what Reno always is..... Three days away from home to play five games.... The same amount we can enjoy locally in one day playing 40s.

Now.... Onto our team....

We los one of our pitchers because of illness who was a 750 hitter.... Replaced him with swings old team mate.

We lost our starting left fielder, a player just a little better then Swing by me evaluation... He batter fifth for us.

We also lost our third baseman for the last two world tourneys we played..... He was a great fielder that hit over 800 in both worlds....

Somehow..... The barons views of our team are tainted..... Maybe it's because two of them came to play with us....... Maybe it's because we didn't ask some of them to play..... Maybe it's because our sponsor stopped sponsoring many of their tourneys.... Maybe because they have cried when I have hit singles up the middle against thier four man infield (never hitting their pitcher)....maybe it's because the players on our team that filled I with them off and on over the last two have turned down their offer to leave us to play with them..... Maybes, maybes, maybes.....
Who really knows..... All I know is their is a whole lot of whining about us being to good for Major coming from a team that has had a lot better success then us in SSUSA events we both played in.

Back to the original thread question...... Why do they bump AA AAA major World Champions out of the Division after they win, and allow plus Champions to return year after year?

I just don't get the reasoning...... And NO..... More then a few of those bumped teams have to dismantle to move up.....so why can't the plus teams be forced to dismantle to stay in Plus?

July 31, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
981 posts
I don't think you are to good for majors FYI I would think that if you picked up the two M+ player you were trying to pick up... other than that I hope to play against your real good major team anytime anywhere.. it will be fun! Like I said.. missed playing against you in NCSSA! We were looking forward to playing you! I thought we would be both better for it. To bad you took the middle thing to far, but you felt you had to get me suspended.. Anyway good luck the rest of the year. Hope to see you in the finals if we both play well in the Worlds and Manteca!
Aug. 1, 2012
donll
55 posts
So Tim- You never answered my question what would you do with your team if the 1 dynasty team was moved down to majors. Would you keep your team there or move them up to plus to play the Longhorns, East Bay Oki etc.? Or stay in majors and take the chance that you may or may not see that team?
Aug. 1, 2012
Tim Millette
477 posts
Actually Swing there is a rule in NCSSA that both of us cannot be in the same tournament.......because your team had...

one player threaten to kill me in more then one email...

another teammate write that I will not make it to the parking lot if I hit a ball up the middle....

and a third teammate comming into our dugout wanting to fight me over hitting a ball to close to your pitcher...

If you remember all this came to a head after Joe Renaldi told me he was going to get me kicked out of senior ball for believing at the 50 major level middle is part of the game....at that point I sent all the threatening emails to the associations he was saying I was going to be kicked out of.

On this issue....I hear the pitcher body count for Barons players added another notch to your teams belt this week....joe, Willie and you hitting flesh in one summer season.....yet somehow I am the guy hitting pitchers? The next senior pitcher I hit will be my first....

Back to our team......As I see it.....we lost three great players form our team last year...Bundy, Ski and Zig...and to this point have replaced them with Mike, Perry and Leon....perry pitches better then Bundy but doesn't hit with him, Mike and Ski are probable a push, and Zig was the best all around player on our team so it's not fair to compare Leon/or almost anyone to him...I would go so far as to say Zig is the best all around 50 year old in NorCal.

Maybe you forgot, or just don't know much about these old teammates........
Aug. 1, 2012
Tim Millette
477 posts
This whole issue is not about any one team.It's about a failed process in the Plus program.

I just don't see how it's right to move teams out of one Division to make sure it stays competitive, and then allow TEAMS to stay intact and Dominate another Division almost yearly.....

This issue has to do with every Plus Dynasty in EVERY Plus Division.....

As I see it, which is admittedly with limited experiences....

Plus ball in every age group is feeling the same pains the 50 Division has...

no ones moving up volunterely because of the Dynasty's allowed to not just stay intact but improve with additional pick ups.....

Now to your question.....I would do whatever our team voted to do.....my vote would be to stay local all year playing a schedule kinda like we did this year, and skip any Worlds.

In the end....NorCal gives me the opportunity to play as much softball as I need...I have no desire to chase "RINGS".

I guess to sum it up....I will not be the guy hanging my head when we lose (other then if I am the reason for the loss), I enjoy playing the local family leagues more then any "Ring" tourney....

I experienced softball Championships in the past and you know what......at least for me.......THEY ARE WAY OVER VALUED.

Softball, as I see it, is a game to be played for fun......

If when I die my softball abilities are listed as one of my greatest achievements, I will be looking UP and understand why it's hot around here.

That's not to say those that chase rings are wrong....it's just I see it as wrong for me.

I will finish by stating....if anyone EVER sees me wearing a senior RING I am asking you to please walk up from behind and kick me in the zzz as hard as you can...then say....Tim get your FN priorities right...that money you wasted could have been spend on charity.
Aug. 1, 2012
softball4b
Men's 60
722 posts
Tim,I agree Softball is a game. I play because it is a release from the stress of working and trying to make a living, especially in CA. It is also an opportunity, an opportunity to maintain and build friendships through a sport. One of the joys of I receive is playing with and against guys I played against decades ago. I respect the game and take it seriously, but not to an unhealthy level. There is no place in this or any other sport for personal threats against another individual. I have no problem beating you on the field and buying you a beer later.

BTW, If you win at the SSUSA World, they pay for the ring. I wear mine proudly, when I remember. Being a SENIOR ring use to bother me, not any more, now it I am proud to still be kicking and competing.

As long as the team you build maintains the same philosophy regarding playing local only, then no harm no foul to them or any other team. The players made the decision to play on your team therefore they are in agreement with your goals. If not there are other teams out there.

Everybody take a breath and calm down. Settle it on the field and if you don't meet then agree to disagree.
Aug. 1, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
981 posts
I'm not replying to the Middle issue at all.. it's been settled... Just wish you would say the whole truth.. you left out doubt you would make it to the parking lot.. big difference. Another little taited spin on your part!

Anyway, I will tell you for the last time.. As your team stands right now I have no problem with you in majors.. You are a major team in my opinion..

I say my team is a major team too despite our success!

Stop being so sensitive.. You have been so worried about being moved up that you lost your objectivity!

Aug. 1, 2012
donll
55 posts
Tim,
So let me get this straight. If you remove the dynasty team you still wouldn't play in the major plus tournament-just play your local schedule and skip the worlds. Hmmm????? That sort of sounds counter to your argument that its the dynasty teams that are keeping teams from moving up. You've been screaming forever that the way to make it more "enticing" to major teams to move up is remove the dynasty team-yet even when given that you would not move up? It kinda makes you sound like even you don't believe your argument. How do you expect anyone else to take your argument seriously?
Aug. 1, 2012
Mulewhipper
54 posts
Tim,

For someone who "doesn't care about the rings" or has much more important things to do in life than playing in 3 day tournaments...you sure spend a lot of time in here on this board trying to get everyone to drink your Koolaid.

Come on....enough talking, get on the field and play some ball already. Let the politics take care of themselves.

Win or lose, I respect every player I play against. I especially love playing against the better teams and your team is certainly one of those. It hasn't been the same this year not matching up against you guys...at least a couple times.

You state that "Softball as I see it is a game to played for fun"...then get out there and have some fun...I know I am.

:-)

Aug. 1, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4305 posts
There will always be someone at the top. Who really cares, most just want to play.

NCSSA ratings only.
MTC 50 is it current top dog
MTC is 2nd also a 50 team
EAst Bay Oldies 50 is 3rd
Worth 50 4th
Barons 50 5th

A few others jump around in that mix but these 5 usually are in the 1st-5th top range for the last two reviews anyway.

Someone will always be there until perhaps the next one changes it around.

Moving teams up or down has always been done Still isn't very good but better than it was, that's for sure. Many teams that should be moved don't get it, and that applies to up or down.
Many teams avoid certain T's and only play in certain others. That applies to assn's too. Just another method of skewing the ratings and they do it well.
On that, I think many more teams are capable of moving up than there are that should perhaps be moved back down.


Aug. 1, 2012
Mario
Men's 50
367 posts
Tim, why are worried about the Plus division when you are a Major team?
Aug. 1, 2012
Mario
Men's 50
367 posts
Once you play at the top you will never go back down. I tried and it did not work. I am not one who wants to dominate, I just want to do and be the best that I can be. Sometimes you have to take your lumps to play with the best. Breaking up the teams in the Plus divisions that have won multiple championships is not the answer. All that will do is water down the top division. None of the top teams want that. If they keep forcing teams up that win championships, eventually there will be 1 or 2 teams that decide that they want to be there and try and beat the best. All the others will continue to break up or dodge the associations that moved them up. I wish there were more plus teams, but not at the cost of watering down the competition. We are expecting 8-9 teams in Las Vegas this year. That will be a great tournament, I for one am looking forward to the competition.
Aug. 1, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4305 posts
Guess here only...Am thinking that SSUSA now rates with team as a whole and the players rostered. They also allow you to plan down one level or up but that might cause your personal rating in the up movement (if more than in a couple events) is my thought on the player part as well as the team as a whole...

As for the NCSSA they rate differently. A plus player can basically play AA ball and nothing is said...I picked up players like that before for my teams. Works well.
Doubt that will change either. Ratings 'basically' based on wins as I see it, but may be something I don't know included as well. Still works fairly well even with the BROAD spectrum or spread they use within ratings for placing teams against each other.
If your good why not move up, just because you like winning as we all do, Take some new lumps and I'm sure you'll still win there as well.
Perhaps eventually a new top dog at a higher level.
Aug. 2, 2012
Tim Millette
477 posts
Mario, I guess you have been missing all the chatter from the Plus guys wanting to "just merge Major with Plus".

As far as needing to "play against the best" stuff......Obviously that concept has not enticed many teams to move or stay at the Plus level. This is why many Plus guys are screaming to get Major merged.

You mentioned "watering down" the Plus Division....

Hello!!!! That's what what senior softball is trying to do with their states limits....

you also said...."none of the TOP teams want that"..... Hello, hello....if your such a fan of competition without domination....you just went against your statement...

as an example...if you were on a team that was 118-3.... Would you tell them.."this is no fun, I hate dominating...let's break up so we can compete again". "if we don't break up, I am quitting because this is not what I play for".

If you are a true believer of playing the best teams possible, you should be advocating no state restrictions at all...Heck that might even bring Dan Smith back.

As far as me not being on a Plus team.....

your right, we are not Plus caliber at this time....

BUT.....if I was part of the Plus program I'd see if the bottom half of the Division would like get together and ask the powers that be to set stronger restrictions on the dynasty's/ no matter what age group I was in....

If it stays like it is in Plus ball.....I most likely will stick to playiing NorCal stuff....I gave up thinking softball was anything other then just for fun a looooong time ago...besides......ncssa, and the forties give me a ton of options locally.
Aug. 2, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
Tim, I am glad you were not NBA commissioner in the '50s and '60s. Or the head of NCAA basketball in the '60s and '70s. Or PGA commissioner from 1997 to 2009.
Aug. 2, 2012
donll
55 posts
Tim,
When asked if the dynasty team was moved would you play plus against Longhorns , East Bay, OKI and others and you said "NO, you would just play local and avoid the worlds where you may have to play those teams". You've been screaming about the dynasty teams as the reason teams won't play plus -Even you know that's not the reason. You don't want to play any of the plus teams. Do you pay attention to what you sayand see how you contradict yourself? You really have no basis for the "dynasty keeps me from playing" argument, when even you say you wouldn't play if they were moved. You can't make the dynasty argument anymore.

And if you really play softball "just for fun " as you claim then why should you care who wins the tournament? I mean isn't that why you say you can't play plus-because you wouldn't have as good a chance as other existing plus teams? You shouldn't care if the Longhorns were in the same tournament as you. Do you see how you contradict everything you've been saying?
Aug. 2, 2012
SSUSA Staff
1122 posts
A trip back to the not-so-distant past - During the 2007 Senior Softball Season ...

Major+ HR rule: 5 per team per game, 1-up, singles
Runs per ˝ inning at bat: Five, except open inning
Out of Region players allowed: None
Snowbird players allowed: Yes

Roster composition: ALL teams, regardless of rating, played at the HIGHEST rating level of ANY single player's individual team affiliation rating history during the current and prior two seasons. No "Rule of 5" or "Rule of 3".

Team roster reviews were much more simple and the higer rating levels of Major+ and Major were very well populated and balanced competitively.

Maybe it's time to go "Back to the Future"?

Aug. 2, 2012
softball4b
Men's 60
722 posts
First of all lets put things in perspective.

The Mavericks team that went 118-3 was a "VERY" special group of players. The years previous to that stretch, the team was good, but not dominating. I know I played 6 years for Ken. We won some championships, but everyone was hard fought. Only time will tell, but in all likelyhood time will demonstrate it was a special team in a special time.

Turn Two has a similarstreak going. No disrespect to this outstanding team, but their dominance is more of a result of their work ethic than superior athletic ability. You can argue both sides of that issue, but at this age if you don't put in the work you usually get the results.

The MAVERICK DYNASTY team was mostly players that played together in the 40's and had finally turned 50. The older players moved on to a different age group and the "young" guys studded up.

One major addition to the team was a player who moved into the Palm Springs area and may be one of the best players in the country, Haberman. True enough they had a couple of players from outside California, but these players were additions to a great team not the team.

Since that amazing run, Ken retired, now an HOF member. The team reformed last year with new sponsorship and for reasons only known to them folded. They reformed this year and are winning, but they are not blowing teams away. Don't misunderstand me, they are very good. They are not playing as much and most of the games are very competitive.

The talk of discrepancey between PLUS and Major is always going to occur. IMO, if they combined + and Major and made it one up, everything would be equal, but that's just my opinion.

Bottom-line:
I have seen too much stress from managers trying to add players and improve teams without moving divisions. Granted it is no fun being in the bottom half of the of the skill bracket if you are forced to move divisions. Been there done that. Usually there is a period where you have to get better or get beat. You can either embrace success and competition or reform at a different level. Besides everyone gripes about playing the same teams, but if you change divisions, you see new teams. Okay bust me up on the board, but you will never hear me complain about who I have to face on the field.


Aug. 2, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
Down goes Millette, down goes Millette, down goes Millette.......................
Aug. 2, 2012
Tim Millette
477 posts
Don, first..let's get to know each other so we have a chance to see where we come from and why we feel like we feel.

I am Tim Millette.
I played A till AA was envented, then played AA till It turned into a four team event.
I Watched AA USSSA get destroyed by not bumping/weakening the winner evey year.
I watched Major utrip reduced to two teams for the same reason.
I have watched utrip A go to single digits for the exact same reason.
My views on Plus senior ball are exactly the same as my views on young guys AA A and Major ball.

Every Division I have been a part of during my playing days has been hampered or destroyed by guys that need to think/know they are going to be playing Sunday at the worlds.

For the last 20 years my teams have not been in that group, we were the minority of teams that played knowing we would have to play great to make it to Sunday.

Now to senior ball...I come in looking to just have fun and low and behold....the same mindset that has been hurting the games I played before seniors is hampering the new senior game I am a part of.

I might not be in Plus, but I see the same idiotic culture....Plus teams needing to be parts of dynasty's that make it almost impossible for teams to move to the Plus Division...it's no different then the Major program of the young guys/a failed program being propped up by the associations unwilling at this time to do the right thing and strongly regulate the Champion team.

Maybe you can tell us why teams are not migrating up to Plus ball.....since you believe I am wrong about the Dynasty's being left intact year after year as the major Plus problem.
Aug. 2, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
Same reason teams appeal move-ups at all levels. They don't appear to like challenges. They want to be in 15th grade still playing JV.
Aug. 2, 2012
stick8
1261 posts
Gary19 adding to your thought I've heard several cases of teams appealing move ups because they feel their team can't win at the higher level. They claim they can only win at the level their currently at. That may or may not be true but I've heard one person say his team can't win at the upper level yet at the same time he states they play the game strictly for the camraderie, enjoyment, getting together with friends & good times, not necessarily to win. Not saying this is the case for every move up team but this particular individual is a study in contradiction.
Aug. 2, 2012
Mario
Men's 50
367 posts
Tim, I know all the Plus teams want more teams. But we want more teams that can compete at that level. I Am not saying that the system is perfect the way it is. But, right now there are 7-9 really good Plus teams in the nation. I think that if you make teams break up, its not going to help anything because of sponsorship .Most Plus teams have some sponsorship. We went from having everything paid for last year to not knowing if we were going to have anything paid for this year. If there are more teams then that will make people pay more out of pocket and that right there will limit the numbers of players. There are a lot of guys that cannot afford to travel all over the country, which you have to do to be in the Plus division, you have to travel to where the teams are. Whether thats out west or down south. I see "Your" point about why you think you should break up dynasty teams, but I personally don't think that is the answer. I think we would be better off gaining 1-2 teams a year like we have in the last couple o years. 1-2 more is about all that will stay up there.
Aug. 2, 2012
Tim Millette
477 posts
Mario, let's look at a few things we could probable agree on.

1) These events we are talking about make up around 15% of the average tourney season for most teams.

2) most teams hand pick the one or two travel senior events they play, off if they are going to play at all.

3) the national senior softball associations are always trying to figure out ways/verues to pull teams in.

4) to this point no senior association has been able to come up with a concept to grow the plus division

Now...... The questions.... How can you make it so Major teams view moving to/competing in Plus as a possibility?

My answer is you have to shrink the divide between Major and Plus ball...now.... The $10,000 question.

How do you do shrink the divide?

I have given an option to try.... What's yours?
Aug. 2, 2012
donll
55 posts
Tim Asks- "Maybe you can tell us why teams are not migrating up to Plus ball.....since you believe I am wrong about the Dynasty's being left intact year after year as the major Plus problem."

Answer- Only you might know why you and your team would not move up to the plus division if the dynasty team was removed. But the fact that you said you wouldn't play up given the dynasty team being removed means you cant keep playing your "dynasty theory" tape over and over again. It's not credible even to you.

So, why don't YOU tell us truthfully why you wouldn't move up and remember you can't play the dynasty card.

Your question has already been answered in another post. Possible answers- 1)fear that you can't win, (even though you are only playing for fun) and 2)lack of teams. But those are only guesses since I've never been on a team that broke up to avoid moving up a level. So you would be better qualified to answer the question but remember.....no using the dynasty teams are ruining softball argument since YOU'VE PROVED that's not what is keeping you from moving up.
Aug. 2, 2012
the wood
1075 posts
Bingo! Mario has hit the nail on the head...
Tim, you never answered my question from a previous post, which was 'what changed the Old A's from being the dominant team'. The answer is that other teams got better. But this simple fact does not support your assertions.
I've been around for longer than you, Tim (but see no reason to post my bio). The reality that I see is that most people DO NOT WANT to play at the highest level. I do not find fault with this as is this is merely a matter-of-fact comment. To make changes on the premise that your theory would be the solutuion is folly. It's similar to putting palm trees outside a Montana home... it won't influence the weather there.
THERE WOULD STILL BE THE M+ RELUCTANCE.
BW

BW
Aug. 2, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
981 posts
Well, I see SSUSA has chimmed in.. Seems to me there are lost of reasons for not wanting to play major plus..

1. so few teams
2. Travel
3. competition
4. Confidence
5. Major is more interesting and fun with more teams
6. not having to breakup your team to get more animals to complete!



Now, if SSUSA is going to make the rules like in 07, that would be a good start in the right direction.
Aug. 2, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
981 posts
Lot's of reasons.. lol
Aug. 2, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
981 posts
phone spell check LOL
Aug. 2, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4305 posts
Swing...
So you take a AAA team for example, that happened to to pick up a 2 year major play for any reason you can think of, and he decides to stay there and the team consequently gets moved up because of him... Personally I don't think that is fair, Especially if the team hasn't been winning.
I do feel more should have to move up though (all levels). Teams usually attend the same vents year after year. The move might show some different faces you face on the fields. Like BW said they are gun shy. Many complained about moving from AA to AAA a few years ago. Those few could move again and be ok there now given recent outcomes. They improved along the way I think that is an important thing.

Perhaps concern from sponsors might be justified about a break up and therefore a loosing streak and nothing to show for money spent. Understood...

But rebuilding a team back to that level should give a lot of satisfaction of a different reward. Those forced to move in all this I doubt would like it especially the cost factor but I also thing the satisfaction of knowing they are a large part of the rebuild should give some of that back mentally at least.
Aug. 2, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
981 posts
Taits, My feeling on that is, if you pick up a player from an upper division and win a world... If that player is still on your roster at the beginning of next years season, expect your team to move up.... I know for a fact that if a AAA team picks up two major players, it can make an ok team, Much better than it really is. That being said, I was picked up with two others from majors and we almost won the AAA winter world last year... That team was schedule to move up to Majors where it would of got killed! especially since we all went back to our major teams! If a team wins a world championship with borrowed players, it's not the same team going into the next year. Player ratings would make a better process as George Hall spelled out!

We have a major plus player on our Baron team.. he has more rings than at bats at the major plus level... is he a true major plus player? Nope... But he's a great guy and we keep him because he supplies our Demarini gear! LOL
Aug. 2, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
981 posts
softball4b... that post was the best one on entire thread! Well done!
Aug. 2, 2012
Mario
Men's 50
367 posts
Tim, I believe its as good as its gonna get. Like I have stated before, I know there are a few Major teams that could compete at the Plus level but for whatever reason they choose not to. If I was in charge and was given the job to try and fix this I would combine Major and Plus and Play SSUSA Major rules. 7 HR's 2 up and a walk. My reason for doing this is what just happened to us in Dalton, in the Plus division. We ended up playing a Major rated team in SSUSA in the finals. GSC/Howards construction. Now they were smart enough not to match us home runs, so they never hit their 7 unless they were the home team. So all extra HR's were walks. I seen first hand that this could work. Having said all that, after listening and chatting about this issue on this board, I would just leave it the way it is and just make World winners move up. This way they will add 1-2 teams every couple of years and by that time I'll be playing 60's. Bottom line is teams have to want to play at the Plus level. Right now thats the way it is.
Aug. 2, 2012
donll
55 posts
Swing,
Your reasons are good but actually, a couple of your reasons are the same- like 1 & 5. 1) so few teams 5) more teams. These are the same thing. Also reasons 3 & 4 are really the same things under the fear category. Travel is the same because you would still go to the worlds. Most plus teams play most of their games locally. And as far as reason #6 breaking up your team to compete - adding a couple key players is less disruptive to the whole team that getting rid of half your team when you try to play down again.

I did think of one more reason- the equalizer- having to give runs instead of getting them in your local tournaments. But again that's based in the fear "we can't compete" category.

But I'm still waiting for Tim to give an answer without contradicting himself.
Aug. 2, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
981 posts
True on the redundancy of my post but I said it looking at it from a different but same perspective...

Aug. 2, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4305 posts
With the Worlds your locked in for a move up*, It's the others plus the 3 others they list that should also be considered as well. IMO
* providing bracket is at bracket number of teams required. That is where many get off as it is.
Aug. 2, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4305 posts
By 'others" I include the Q's that are also TOC winner placeholders.
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