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Discussion: Player Ratings

Posted Discussion
Aug. 30, 2012
Fred Scerra
Men's 80
542 posts
Player Ratings
Is there a way to find out individual ratings or what teams players are on?
Aug. 30, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4249 posts
I think only as a mgr on here. But even then perhaps not. Hush, hush, top secret stuff ya know...lol
Only check & balance for rosters I've seen is at the check in. One reason I am a proponent of open roster viewing like they have in NCSSA here. I've caught quit a few players double teaming and wrong birth dates over the years. Right now there are 7-8 players on two teams that shouldn't be because of age they are. Go figure on the checkers for this. They don't do anything any way unless it's done at the T.
It's something to do at least.
Aug. 30, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
975 posts
I think player rating should be online and up to date... I also think you take the ambition for some to try and play up with automatic rating them to the next level the minute they play.. My Baron Team last year had three major plus guys on the team, My opinion was that out of the three, one was major plus caliber and one had more rings than at bats at the Major plus level... He should of never been considered a major plus level player.. So if they do rate players sometime down the road I would hope it's just not based on what level they play at and it's based on facts of how good that player is! Also, if you have a guy try for a game or two at an upper level, you don't automatically bump his rating until he establishes himself!
Aug. 30, 2012
rightrj1
Men's 55
180 posts
I think if a rating system was put into place, it should include only 3 stats based on classification, games played, and …ASSIST, ERRORS, & ONBASE PERCENTAGE. But with only 3 divisions….The manager’s would have to be require to have a satiation , turn the stats into SSUSA and any Excel spread stat sheet can be created as long as the data is entered correctly…Most teams send their stats to the team anyway after a tourney……..
Aug. 31, 2012
Webbie25
Men's 60
1931 posts
rightrj-that's a lot to expect from stats-and we all know stats are in the eye of the beholder-a hit to some is an error to others, I've seen guys go back and change an unfavorable decision in a scorebook in his favor, lots of teams (like the Desperados) do not keep any stats at all. SSUSA would almost have to provide scorekeepers for every game that were there exclusively for the purpose of keeping stats that would go toward rating players, and that's certainly not going to happen. Without a massive infusion of personnel to track players, I don't see how you are going to do a better job rating players.
Aug. 31, 2012
steve65
Men's 65
175 posts
I notice that the comments on rating players seems to center on hits or on base percentage---we all know players that bat only--they utilize courtest runners and do not play the field as they cannot move--how do these players rate when compared to a player that may not hit as well but plays the field and runs for themselves and others???Or an outfielder that can run but cannot throw---which is better a guy that can run the ball down but cannot throw it or the guy with a cannon for an arm but the runner has already advanced a base or two by the time he gets to the ball?? just my thinking
Aug. 31, 2012
Webbie25
Men's 60
1931 posts
steve-when I talked about it I should have gone further-these trained scorekeepers would need to assess offensive and defensive capabilities. Great point.
Aug. 31, 2012
steve65
Men's 65
175 posts
Webbie I think it needs to go deeper than offense and or defense--what about a player that can raise a teams spirits with his demeanor--teams seem to play better when happy as compared to grumbling so I think a player with a light and airy nature is a plus--JMO
Aug. 31, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
steve, Barry Bonds was by all accounts a very grumpy teammate. Would you rather have the team social director on your team or Bonds? Who would you rate higher?

(forget the steroids for a moment, just focus on on-field play)
Aug. 31, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4249 posts
If they are to be used there needs to a standardized method so the vast majority is done in the same way. However as is there are hardly ant that do it the same let along via objective or subjectively. Nothing is in defined in writing for which tournaments, how many games over the 2 years or so that is mentioned. Is that the last 2 or any past 2 years, consecutive or pick and choose? And which games could end up being pool play or bracket, maybe a combo. Who the heck knows. If anything there, it should be all of them. Primarily because some mgrs sit the better players so they play bracket & visa versa Skewing the results for one or the other.
Teams just do not want to move up unless forced.

Swing, was that Joe R. you referred to? Just curious.
Aug. 31, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
Remove all of the classifications, and just let flesh-and-blood guys who put their pants on one leg at a time play against flesh-and-blood guys who do the same. Sounds like an equal playing field to me. And then you don't have to worry about all the ratings.

Is a 12th grader winning a Freshmen or JV tournament really worth pursuing?
Aug. 31, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
975 posts
last check, Bonds Grumpy ass has no world series rings... most happy dugouts are successful G19!
Bottom Line, coaches umps know who the best players are for the most part... it's a hitters game and defense adds to the value of the player. There are some players that can only hit, but their hitting is so outstanding they are Major plus caliber.. Each player would have to be judged on what he brings to the game. That simple!
Aug. 31, 2012
rightrj1
Men's 55
180 posts
Webby, I here ya…..But aren’t most rated players done by the HR’s hit or division they play in? The big boys get rated based by on base percentage & HRs. So let say you’re a 50 major player and the average HR hit in that division is 50 per season or on base per. is over 750…..If you hit 10 over the average then you’re reclassified as a major plus player……or if you’re on base percentage is over 750 same thing?
I really understand your point on needing more personnel for something like this, that why the owness should be put on the manager’s to enter the data.
Steve, Softball is a HITTER’s game, everything else falls on deaf eyes……But I do get your point!
Aug. 31, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
975 posts
G19, you know what's comical about your JV Freshmen analogy? Is that fact that you were a AAA player at best, Maybe this is why you quit! You can't hang with the Varsity!
Aug. 31, 2012
rightrj1
Men's 55
180 posts
Swing....1 for you....lol
Aug. 31, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
975 posts
;-)

Aug. 31, 2012
Bomber #7
Men's 60
62 posts
Swing, based on what I see posted, G may well have been the cancer most "team" guys fear and try to avoid! That negative attitude, the guy nobody wants. I'm sure it is in all phases of his life, not just his keyboard game.
Aug. 31, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
swing, I understand that about Bonds. Though Barkley has not NBA rings and Rober Horry has many. Who would you rate higher?

Are the dugouts happy because they are successful, or successful because they are happy? Chicken and egg thing. My guess is for the most part the winning come first due to talent, and usually naturally happiness follows.

Chemistry is important, but give me the Oakland As of the 70s over a bunch of talentless guys singing Kumbaya.

swing, just wondering when you saw me play to make that statement. But in general you make a good point. If, at this age, all I could play was AA or AAA I would not keep spending thousands a year to chase a JV ring. Just would make no sense. Just as I never saw a 12th grader clamoring to play JV just to win a JV championship.

Bomber, what cancer? Calling the senior game what it is is now cancerous? Funny. Ask the tourney guys in the league I played in who don't have 1/2 the championships in that league I have. Ask the managers who have drafted me above some of those guys so they can increase their chances of winning. AGAIN, not saying I am Don Arndt, but your assertion just doesn't hold up.



Aug. 31, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
975 posts
Gary, I had asked someone who knew something about you and they said that you were AAA at best as a player said you were short, fat, and from Cleveland! Do I have the right guy?... I have said this before and no one on this board disputed it. Let's hear from you what you think your rating should be?
Aug. 31, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
Short? Yes, I suppose 5'8" is.

Fat? I don't know. Is a size 46 jacket and 36 pants "fat"?

Cleveland? Well, Shaker Heights, a suburb of Cleveland.

Rating wise? Maybe AAA as a hitter, I suppose. As a pitcher, Major at least.
Aug. 31, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
975 posts
Well then I got it right!
Aug. 31, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
About?

Well, if you think a 46" chest with a 36" waiat on a guy with 17+" arms who spends 45 minutes 3 days a week on an elliptical is "fat", go for it.

And if you think a pitcher who will save his teams more runs than most of the individual hitters are creating is a bad thing, fine with me too.
Aug. 31, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
975 posts
5' 8" makes you a probably 5' 6" with a 46 inch chest and 36 waist... Now the key question is how much do you weigh?
Aug. 31, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
975 posts
And by the way... perception is reality... and if those who viewed your statue think you are fat... Then perception is reality.. FYI
Aug. 31, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
No, that is not my "program height". I was measured weekly at 5'8" for probably 6 months when going in for cancer treatements and follow-ups.

Actually, weight is not a key. By all charts Arnold, Ferrigno, Haney, Oliva, and so on and so on would be classified as obese. But that clearly was not the case.

No, actually the tape measure is much more reality than perception or a scale. Next time you see whoever told you that, ask them if they want to take their shirt off next to me.
Aug. 31, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
975 posts
Gary Gary Gary... Guys asking other guys to take their shirts off is another perception I don't want to investigate... Again, obviously you are embarrassed about your weight.. it's ok, I get it. I will let you off the hook and not ask about your weight again since it's a touchy subject!;-)
Aug. 31, 2012
softball4b
Men's 60
706 posts
Webbie, no stats, now I know how you went 16 for 11 in a lot of your tourneys.
Aug. 31, 2012
Pricer
Men's 50
616 posts
Fred, back to your original question. It would almost impossible to rate each player in senior ball in my opinion. I've never thought players should have a rating, but teams should if your gonna have any type of rating system at all. Everything we do in ball as far as rating goes is based on the homerun(s). If a player or players make the team a better so as they should be moved up, so be it. But rating the players I think is wrong. JMO! What do you think?
Aug. 31, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
swing, yea you got me figured out.

And I knew you would go all 12-year-old with the shirt comment.....:)
Aug. 31, 2012
steve65
Men's 65
175 posts
guys there is much more than hitting to the game--take defense away and you have a 30 -30 tie after 6 innings--different players bring different things to a team and to be successful one part cannot be removed from the equation---Gary19 I am trying to find you a bra for that man boob problem!!!! will let you know if I find one---
Aug. 31, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
Thanks Steve, but no sagging so far....:)

You are absolutely correct about the value of defense. But on this board, where all other aspects of the game are severely devalued to the point that lazy, out of shape guys get "courtesy runners" because they can't/won't run 65' for themselves, and where you can suck, give up 5 runs, and then get rewarded by going in to hit, they don't seem to care a lot about defense.
Aug. 31, 2012
Davy
12 posts
I agree that individual rating of all players, i.e. utilizing the 5 tools would be almost impossible.
However one indicator correlates fairly well.

At what level have they played for the last two or three years?

Seems to me that if you played for the same team for 2 or 3 years running at a given level, i.e. Major Plus, Major, AAA, or AA, the teams have already determined that you are valuable to them at that level.

If you changed teams but still played at the same level, that would indicate that the new team
also thought you would be valuable to them.

Analysis of rosters and levels is not that difficult.
Aug. 31, 2012
Fred Scerra
Men's 80
542 posts
Pricer: I probably worded it wrong. I meant is there a list of players and the teams they play with which would be their rating.

We are having trouble with one team in our rec traveling league loading up with players and we are thinking of making a rule that no Major or Major + players can play.

He is so intent on winning and the worst part is we don't even keep standing. We just play the game for fun of it and winning or losing really doesn't mean anything. We just want the teams to be competitive with each other.

As a side not just reading all the responses to a simple question is the one reason I very rarely come on this board anymore.
Aug. 31, 2012
17Black
Men's 50
206 posts
Classifications????

I'm not sure I get the AA/AAA translating to JV as a poster said above?

I did not play softball for about seven years in my 40's. Some friends I used to play with two decades ago (actually three) told me about senior softball, and asked me to join them five years ago.

I started playing with them in a weeknight league about five years ago. Igt was nice to go play ball again after work, compete, have some fun. As a team, they travelled to a couple tournaments a year at the AA level. I was 48 (local league rules) and they were going to 50's tournaments at the time. I did not attend due to age.

When I finally turned 50 I went with them to an AA tournament, in Vegas, where the ball flies. I unintentionally made 4-5 outs by hitting homers with my normal swing. Before going to the tournament I didn't even know what AA/AAA/Major was on the senior level. All I remembered was A/B/C etc from the 80's and 90's.

All I know is I had a blast playing tournament ball again, regardless of classification, and we finished 2nd in the Vegas Winter Worlds in 2009.

I went back for more the following year, hit a couple HR's that counted and several more for outs. I had FUN that year too, but hitting homers for outs is not fun overall. I knew I was probably not an AA player, based just on long balls, if nothing else.

STILL---a lot has to be said for playing with your friends!!!!! Regardless of what the classification is. PLAYING with your friends is GREAT!! Especially when you win.

I STILL PLAY in a weeknight league with those guys----don't want to give it up, although they now play over 55 and Over 60 tournaments, I'm still just 53, playing 50's, so I hooked up with another team in AAA to play tournaments with.

ALSO a lot of guys on that team are my friends, or guys I play with or against in league ball and have known for decades. AGAIN, a lot has to be said for playing with your buddies in tournaments.

AA/AAA guys want to go win as much as anybody else. Several guys in AAA can easily play major from what I have seen------and one of my former team-mates that I feel somewhat comparable with athletically, made the transition to go play on a Major Tournament Team this year 2012, and decided not to play with his buddies.

He was and is so far, successful!! Which allows me to think, when healthy, I "Probably" easily could go play Major too as well as several other guys I know.

Still< I work 50+ hours a week, play in two weeknight leagues after work, four nights a week, and going to hook up with a bunch of guys I don't really know a few weekends in the summer, just to play "MAJOR", just does not appeal to me. (Although the thought is there in the back of my mind?)

I get enough tournament fill right now playing 3/4/5 tournaments a summer at AAA, want to win, and play as hard as anybody else.

I have read a lot of posts on here over the past two years of guys "Hiding" in AAA ball and some other ridiculous comments. "MAYBE" some guys are "hiding" but I really have no clue.

But a lot of guys want to go away for a weekend together, with their buddies, guys they played with and against for 30+ years, which is fun, because there is a lot to be said about "winning with your pals"

Not saying I wouldn't meet "new pals", and "MAYBE" I'll consider making the transition UP in the near future, as my other pal did?

BUT----Because he went to Major, and actually played Major Plus in a tournament a couple weeks ago, it appears if he decides not to play with these guys, he cannot drop two classes back to AAA next year and play with his pals again? (for two years if I read the rules correctly????)

That is kind of dumb in my opinion???

The Team is rated Major Plus, Yes he is "pretty good" but he is ONE guy. If ONE guy plays AA/AAA they still have to play with those rules regardless where they came from? And I know if you play Major or Major Plus you are "PROBABLY" a better player than many guys in AA/AAA but having a guy or two that can play higher on those teams does not guarantee winning at lower levels either??

That all being said, I think TEAMS should be classified but there should be a little more lee-way on rating individual guys on those teams as they change teams.

AND playing with your long time buddies can be cool too!!!!! It's not hiding, it's going out, playing some ball and having a lot of fun.

If you would have told me when I was 30 I'd still be playing now, I'd tell you you were out of your mind.

Aug. 31, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
975 posts
17 Black, well said! I can't argue with that because I have written the same thing about playing with your buddies... I would never call a team or person out that plays with his buds! I think that the rating system would be good for Teams that tend to load up to much. That's why a rating system IMO would be needed for players... I say each level has a certain about of impact players allowed and say a guy like yourself hanging in AA or AAA with major plus or major talent should be able to play with your buds.. it's when a team takes 4 or 5 major or major plus talents at the AA or AAA level is when it goes wrong for eveyone... Even at the top level Stacking teams has led to some pretty spirited opinions on these boards! It could work for all the levels IMO...
Sept. 1, 2012
?
75 posts

How many tournaments does a player play with a team to get rated at the next higher level?

If a AAA player plays with a Major team for a tournament because the Major team was short on available team players. Will the AAA player get a higher rating if the team wins the tourney?

Sept. 1, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4249 posts
?
Read the priority posting in red above 3rd from bottom. It might help, But reality is another issue.
Sept. 1, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
975 posts
The way I have seen it play out... if a team drops you, say at major and you go play major plus in one tourney.. you are now rated at major plus level player... if the major team you left has the maximum rated major plus players when you left, you can't return to that team because now you are putting that team over the limit of rated major plus players!
Sept. 1, 2012
Bomber #7
Men's 60
62 posts
G, a "cancer" on a tournament team does not usually have a talent problem. It's not a talent issue, it's personality! Normally it's a mouth problem, always negative, usually insulting to others, and most of the time a negative influence on the team. Kind of the "little big man syndrome." Sometimes thes types are actually pretty good players, just not the type of guys you want to play with day in and day out.
On the small scale, these types will be scooped up by "league" teams to help win the little neighborhood trophy as you've claimed. They'll put up with a guy like this for the minimun number of games just to be the best in the neighborhood. Tournament teams on the other hand will leave this type of guy off their roster because of the amount of time guys spend together, he'll just bring them down. Fact is, not all personalities fit the team concept.
Sept. 1, 2012
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
A few year's ago the manager surprised me by bringing in a "problem" player. Good hitter and glove. A few tourneys in, I tell him that he's got to stop hitting so many fly balls. He say's that he's messed up because he's used to batting 4th and not 8th. That was his last tournament with us. I was not the only one he had spoken with.
Sept. 1, 2012
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
swing..........that M+ player with more rings than M+ at bats.....is he a courtesy runner like that SportsmanShop fellow that runs the 40 in 4.5 seconds?
Sept. 1, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
975 posts
not quite, but close... LOL
Sept. 2, 2012
paul0784
Men's 55
120 posts
Fred in your league what is the sense of keeping score if it is a rec league and anyone who has played competitive all his life why would he want to play in your league? I can understand why you don't post anymore the competitive bones are gone. Just like when kids play all the kids should play equal time and the heck with the more talented kids just hold them back and play rec league. JMO Can't fault a guy who wants to win and put the best possible team on the field all the time. It is the competitive way.
Sept. 3, 2012
Webbie25
Men's 60
1931 posts
Oh, now I get the 46/36-should have read this one first. Ha-ha. Gary, I am impressed that you compare yourself to Ferrigno and Ah-nold. That comparison fits the profile you exude here from the keyboard.
steve56-to accurately rate players is honestly a monumental task full of intangibles and grey areas. Without paid professional experts that can watch a heck of a lot of games and know the true ins and outs of the game, there really is no way to do it. The database would have to be huge. I don't believe it is feasible.
17Black-you have said a lot of the same things I have about moving up as I faced the same thing.The fire in the stomach to be the best just does not burn as hot as it did when we were young. And I think that is one of the great things about senior softball.
Sept. 3, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
So you struggle with analogies too?

Fewer classes, less need for player rating.
Sept. 3, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4249 posts
Webbie,
I may be reading your last 2 sentences wrong but I think most of us enjoyed the younger years with no time limits, hr limits,no dissociated rules etc, over what we have now overall. Not saying senior ball is bad, or even close, just not the game it used to be in softball as I knew it at least.
Sept. 3, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
taits, great point. Who remembers ever wishing when they were young that they would put in HR limits, time limits, runs per inning limits, a 1-1 count, a mat, or courtesy runners? Who remembers thinking "damn, I hate the game without all of those "improvements"? Anybody?
Sept. 3, 2012
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
Why must you dwell in the past? When I was young, I didn't think about any improvements to the game. I just played by the rules that were given to me. I certainly didn't wish that we were playing like we did in little league! I've always been one to stay in the present time. SSUSA has rules that senior players play by. Sending you back to another era is not an option. Those things they did on "Star Trek" were just special effects, not real.
Sept. 3, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4249 posts
I never have cared for the 1\1 count as a pitcher, batter or mgr.
run rules are business moves to save money. Mat is used in many assn even back then especially if strike zone which I have seen both ways w\& w\o mat.
Had CR back then too but not like now, which is really more logical if one thinks about it.
Sept. 3, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
975 posts
Gary errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr 46/36 doesn't get that you don't wear the same pants or shirts in your 50and 60s as you do in your 20s.. FYI, Seniors for the most part are in need of courtesy runners and the safety rules, such as the line at home plate for safety reasons! Gary, Mr 46/36 is stuck in a time warp! We, who are still good or great players still love this game and will continue to play with USASS rules with no problems and very little questioning of it's rules or policies! Mr 46/36 is probably looking for his next pose off victim! LOL
Sept. 3, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
975 posts
BTW, Time limits are a necessary evil... Crap, if you let all of us old @#$%s take are time on every pitch and walk to the outfield on our own time.. the games would take 3hrs... if you want more than three at bats in a SS game get your ass out there and move the game along! IMO I wish umps would help out with this management of the time.. I see to much BS that screws us out of playing an inning!
Sept. 3, 2012
cal50
Men's 50
256 posts
I disagree with you on the time limit one swing.....we played an entire tournament, time limit was 50 minutes every game including bracket games. Games were scheduled hour and 15 minutes apart, yet still 50 minute time limit. We never played a complete game entire tournament.

There are plenty of things that could be done to make sure the games are not behind except rare occasions.
Sept. 3, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4249 posts
I see it this way, correct me if wrong...
Those 50 min games vs the game times you were actually supposed to get is a contractual break.
You signed on to play under specific rules but the time element was broken.
They TD putting it on, as a representative of ssusa broke a written contract they were under w\ ssusa imo and have admitted it here more than once. Even ssusa said time was different. Not good for any party or the teams that paid for more game time. You got hosed. But what the hey, you'll be back.
Shortened games because of reaching correct time limits before open inning is one thing, shortening the game to another time frame is another.
But again you'll be back, just like Arnold baby. lol.

Sept. 3, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
975 posts
Cal 50 ... I agree that 50 min is BS however 75 min should be a normal time limit! IMO
Sept. 4, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
swing, I have no problem with courtesy runners for seniors. Just make it the last available out. That should solve any safety/health issues without making it some strategic advantage.

I have no problems with anything for safety. I just don't see how the mat, 1-1 counts, HR limits, time limits, or runs per inning limits make the game one iota safer.

As far as the necessary evil, how about a little hustle on and off the field. Yea I know, not as fast as we used to be, and "hustle" might have different meaning for 50s and 70s, but a bit of effort wouldn't hurt anyone.
Sept. 4, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4249 posts
Both types of Cr allowance exist depending on where you play. Applies to league and travel ball. League though in usually last out.
Mat used to be behind the plate, runner needed to touch it for scoring run and still not touch the actual plate. But collisions occurred and was changed to two different typed of lines or a 2nd plate. Perpendicular line to home plate for crossing to count and or a diagonal line running from between 3rd and home to near outside corner of mat on 3rd base side. A diagonal line you could not go within or your out. I still have seen in used but it is rare.
All the other issues are business time savers for saving money, not for quality games. IMO rational is that otherwise games would be 1.5 hours maybe longer and who knows when the last game would be played in a 6 team bracket with games as they once were. Money is the bottom line for business ventures, all else is secondary or less.
Those issues mentioned I doubt too make it safer, just more in the pocket time wise.
Least on list is 1\1 count, that looser can be easily ate up if any in reality, in time wasted changing sides in and out and chats about pitchers or plays.
Sept. 4, 2012
Joerb
4 posts
Fred, ever consider an equalizer, like in tournament play? If you think one team is a "major" team playing against "AAA" teams then have them give 5 runs or an extra player as an equilizer.
It certainly beats banning individual players because they happen to be on a good tournament team. They themselves may or may not be of major/major plus ability but that is what their team is ranked.
I doubt there are any major plus players in your rec league. They are few and far between and wouldnt bother with a rec league.
Sept. 4, 2012
Joerb
4 posts
Fred, ever consider an equalizer, like in tournament play? If you think one team is a "major" team playing against "AAA" teams then have them give 5 runs or an extra player as an equilizer.
It certainly beats banning individual players because they happen to be on a good tournament team. They themselves may or may not be of major/major plus ability but that is what their team is ranked.
I doubt there are any major plus players in your rec league. They are few and far between and wouldnt bother with a rec league.
Sept. 5, 2012
Fred Scerra
Men's 80
542 posts
paul0784: That is another reason I don't bother with the board anymore. We play the game for the love of the game and the competition.

I love tournament ball and miss it, but we also just love to play the game which seems to be a no no on this board. If you don't play tournament ball you shouldn't bother playing seems to be the general attitude of the members.

Sept. 6, 2012
Dukes
7 posts
Fred, is there only one team in your league that has major level players? By banning the good players, would you not be watering down the level of play in the league and possibly lose some teams entirely? Do the team(s) with major players win your rec league every year? Is this just a case of being a sore loser? Perhaps a better approach would be for your team to go out and recruit better players. My feeling is that senior softball resources (players) are limited and leagues/tournaments/organizations should do everything in their power to attract and keep players, especially good ones. Players should only be banned for gross misconduct. Perhaps the players who should be banned are those that suggest banning other players for simply being a little better skilled.
Sept. 6, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
Thank God the NCAA doesn't just ban the better football teams and players, or the SEC would cease to exist.

Why do guys seem to be in such a desperate need to win what winds up being very watered down leagues and tournaments? Is there some accomplishment in that?
Sept. 6, 2012
curveball
Men's 65
395 posts
Fred, has your league ever considered drafting players? It does create parity, and does away with "loaded up" teams. You'll keep all members and the games will become closer.

Sept. 6, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
And guys who want to play together, but now can't unless they happen to be drafted by the same team, will go elsewhere. What does that do for the league?
Sept. 6, 2012
Dukes
7 posts
Well said Gary19. The draft doesn't solve anything because senior player tend to come from a variety of backgrounds across georgaphical areas even within a state. They really want to play with their buddies who they live near and perhpas grew up with. You will end up losing players if there is an open draft.

Fred, if you are not concerned about winning and losing and the scores mean nothing, then why would you consider banning the best players? It doesn't make sense and actually sounds hypocritical to me. If you ban your major players and the same team adds several top AAA players and then wins your league again, what do you do then? Ban the triple A players? Where does it end? If you are so concerned about playing against better players, why not pass a rule that says only players that are of equal or lesser ability than you can play? What would you gain from that? Then when you do finally win, "though winning doesn;t matter to you", how will you feel when all of the lesser skilled player get together and ban you from your league?

Go out and compete, have fun, enjoy softball in your latter years, Go get better players, even practice a bit yourself so that you become a better player. Banning skilled players is not the American way. I suggest that think about what you are saying and doing before people decide to ban you.
Sept. 6, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
Dukes, I am not picking on Fred, but I hear tbis story often. It will end, in this case, when Fred's team wins. Then he will know he has the "right" mix of players in his league.

You know the old story. "They came for the Jews, and I said nothing. They came for the blacks, and I said nothing..........." These guys will keep coming for everyone who they can't beat, until they are the big fishes in what at that point will be a very small pond (by the way, how meaningless will that championship be?). Then someone will come for them, and there will be no one speaking on their behalf.
Sept. 7, 2012
curveball
Men's 65
395 posts
I have been in both senerios, being the sponsor/player of a league team in Portland OR that "bought" the best seniors in the area and prceeded to beat the hell out of outmanned teams, in the 30-5 range. They couldn't improve, there were NO top players left in the geographic area. We grabbed every new upcoming star that was turning 50. We basically played in a local league with a Major+ travel team. Thought it was fun at the time!
Moved to Palm Springs and played in what I would consider one of the top senior leagues in the country, web site, scorekeeper with all batting stats, summer and winter league, organized batting practices, and lots of teams in 2 different skills divisions. All players are rated by their peers, from best to worst; a board meets and drafts the players on teams according to their ratings. On the top, for example, you have 2 of the best 50+ players in the nation, multiple time world champs( Guy Haberman and Paul Salow), and the top is rounded out with 50 Major, 55 Major+, and 55 Major world champs. Very quality league indeed. The drafted teams create parity, and, give all teams in a small community a chance to be "the champs". To place the best 12 in the area on one team would create joke for the remaining teams; we do that occasionally in open tourneys and play against the kids.
In conclusion, after playing a decade both ways, there in no doubt in my mind that in league play, where the entire league is made up of buds and guys you know, parity by drafting creates the best league. Close games are more fun that blowouts in a local senerio.
Tournament play, just the opposite! Go with the best you can get.
Sept. 7, 2012
mad dog
Men's 60
3919 posts
and curveball ya get to play with others you might not get to play with otherwise....draft leagues for an all age/talent senior league is great....you spread out the talent and the lesser talented guys get to play with better players and maybe learn something from them....we also draft,but ours is a blind draft,we put the impact players for our league in a hat and then draft them to spread them out,then do the same of the age divisions....and yes rob it is fun to put together a tourney team to play against the kids.......

fred i would look into a draft league for ya's....
Sept. 7, 2012
stick8
1238 posts
Dukes that has to be one of the best written and well reasoned posts I've read on here. You ask some very good and pointed questions. Thank you for sharing.
Sept. 9, 2012
Dukes
7 posts
Thanks Stick8. This kind of discussion is one that aggravates me to no end. We lost, so let's change a rule or ban some players so that we can take the path of least resistance to win. It often comes under the phoney guise of "we really aren't competitive and we really don;t care about winning" but the truth is that these kind of people are the one that are obsessed with winning moreso that the better players. It's funny, I bet if the team with the major players had lost, they would have congratualkted the winners, shaken hands and moved on. There would be no posts on the message board complaining about better polayers on the other team.

Senior softball should be about attracting and keeping players period, not about picking and choosing who can and cannot play so that the outcome is predetermined. Common sense has to prevail at some point.
Sept. 9, 2012
stick8
1238 posts
Well said Dukes, especially when you point out that these self-claimed "non competitive teams that don't care about winning" who advocate rule changes or banning certain players are the ones who are obsessed with winning. To me it's a dead giveaway. Why would they want to change rules or ban players if they didn't care about winning?
If that isn't convincing enough I would invite anyone to witness a game between 2 teams of that stripe. As an ump I've called a numerous amount of games featuring teams like that som I've seen it first hand. Many, if not all of those games are knock down, drag out type affairs. These teams want to win!! Now that's a good thing in and of itself but if those teams are still going to claim they don't care about winning then their demonstrating the heighth of hypocrisy.
Sept. 9, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
Hypocrisy, thy name is Senior Softball.
Sept. 9, 2012
HJ
Men's 70
414 posts
I agree with curveball- for a local league, a draft is the only way to go. games are competitive and the lesser players play up to the
better players and learn. Every player wants to win and you never know until well into the season which team will win. I don't understand leagues with 6 or 8 teams and the top 1 or 2 beat the others virtually all the time.
Feb. 1, 2013
Dukes
7 posts
I know this is an old post, but just to complete a story that I am familiar with. Fred and his team backed off on their attemp to ban the major players when they realized that they had 3 major players on their team as well. The team I play on has 4 major players and we were eliminated early on in the tournament. Fred's team lost in the finals but I can say that all games throughout the playoff tournament were competitive. There were no blowouts and that is whi it is fun and if the playoff bracket was replayed again it might very well have produced a different winner. Fred's team won the playoffs in 2011 and when he and his team did not repeat in 2012 - they looked to ban players to give them a better chance in 2013. The league has been balanced and competitive for the 6 years which I have played and the only thing that can ruin it is this kind of thing banning players and essentially rigging the games. Guys, please, let's just play ball and enjoy the latter years of life without worrying who wins an over 60 recreational softball league.
Feb. 1, 2013
TOMAR77
Men's 55
188 posts
Duke and 17 Black have it right! Let's all get out there and Play Ball, enjoy the game, adapt to the rules, and keep things in proper perspective. As they say, Life is to short to piss and moan on every little accommodation for ones age and abilities. A wise man once said, "one who continuously points out perceived short comings is himself often short sighted".
Tomar
Feb. 4, 2013
curty
Men's 60
99 posts
i play in this league and we have some unusal circumstances. we are in new england- which means a limited number of players. our league is spread out over a large area, with teams playing home and away series, often 50 to 75 miles apart. This leads to players wanting to play with their "home boys," mostly because of travel requirements- read car pooling. The other issue is that tournament players like to play together as much as possible, for obvious reasons. We have a short season, very small player pool, limited facilities and tight schedule so keeping teams interested is important to keep the league going. Most teams pick players from the closly surronding areas, and we have 2 divisions of play- one for older and less athletic players, so there are opportunities for any one interested. Drafting is not in the best interest of the league because players don't like to "travel" to their home field, especially if it's distant. I may have been one of the players that Fred complains about, but after 2 undefeated seasons I chose to go to another- hometown- team to play with guys I know. I don't have an answer to this but for sure it SHOULD be about playing.
Feb. 5, 2013
Coach
Men's 80
15 posts
I can't believe this turned out to be such a big thing.

Just to correct Dukes. It wasn't my team that requested this. It was a couple of other teams. The way i run this group is anyone that has a suggestion or comment I always put it out to all the managers to comment on.
We are made up of teams from 12 different cities/towns and each team forms their own roster. The only thing I do is coordinate the schedule. It is basically and organized pick-up games with a set schedule.
Feb. 7, 2013
Mario
Men's 50
346 posts
Some one needs to tell Tim that there has been a different winner in the 50+ Major+ division 4 years in a row now. I've only played plus 3 years and ther has a different winner at worlds every year. Where is all this domination he's talking about?
Feb. 7, 2013
Tim Millette
465 posts
Mario, I have not posted on this thread.

I am sorry if my view of th Plus champion oly returning with 6 or 7 players scares you.

On another issue...are you guys thinking about going to the usssa senior worlds in St Louis?
Feb. 8, 2013
Webbie25
Men's 60
1931 posts
Tim-this is just a personal viewpoint. I am very glad SSUSA does not break up 'dynasties' or Major Plus winners. Last year Hollis spanked us 6 times in a row. We got close once (34-33). I'm going to give you one guess whom I look forward the most to playing this year. Of course it is Hollis. They were the best last year along with being a classy team. If your view had been adopted, Hollis would not exist as the same team and I would have been disappointed. Why would you not want to play the best when you play at that level?
Feb. 8, 2013
Mario
Men's 50
346 posts
Thats funny Tim, since your the one crying about Plus ball. St.Louis, I have not got our schedule yet. If we go I'll be sure and look you up!
Feb. 8, 2013
Dukes
7 posts
So Coach - if this is just a pickup league where you organize a set schedule, then why would anyone even consider banning players? The constant theme behind all of these comments is that this is a rec and pickup league where winnign doesn't matter but we really need to ban players so that we can win. Can you explain that?
Feb. 8, 2013
Mario
Men's 50
346 posts
Ii just looked up that tourney in St.Louis and it is 9/6/2013 and 9/7/2013 in Bridgeton Missouri, which is right by the airport.
Feb. 9, 2013
JDub
Men's 50
131 posts
WOW, I just wish we had the Population to support a Senior League for 50's! Most Senior Leagues here in the Phoenix Metro area are in "Retirement Communities."

As for Tournament Ball, our Team has a Good Core of past Tournament Players. We have No Negative Ego's, and we All Enjoy our Time Playing Softball together . . .

We have Played, Beat, and Lost to Major & Major+ Teams without Whining! We have done very well in our short time together as a Major Team, yet have not Won a "Major" Senior World in any Sanction. SSUSA Bumped us to Major+ which we Look Forward to Playing, and again . . . without Whining ! ! !

Bottom Line as I stated above, "we all Enjoy our Time Playing Softball together." We are not even close to being a Dynasty Team, nor do we want or need to be Broken-up . . .


Regards,
Jeff White
AZ Elite #7
Feb. 12, 2013
Fred S
Men's 80
71 posts
Dukes: If I have to explain that to you then you don't understand the concept of our association . We would like to have all our teams be at least competitive with each other. My team is very competitive with that team and I would say our record with that team is about .500 over the years, but some of the other teams are not.
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