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Discussion: Hypocrisy

Posted Discussion
Sept. 7, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Hypocrisy
Can we please stop the babble that safety is the number one concern, and that rules are put into place with the intent to make/keep the game safe?

Watch an MLB game. There will be more charging of the mound over being hit by a pitch than being taken out cleanly at second base. Yet senior softball seems to believe that banning takeout slides makes the game safer than banning the special bats that have been banned for everyone under 50. So I guess what is being said is it is safer to be hit by the ball than by a sliding baserunner. Again, hardball guys don't seem to agree but that is the infinite wisdom of senior softball.

Simple point is guys won't stop paying entry fees if the game has two first bases, or two home plates, or if this kind of slide is banned. But they will stop paying and coming if the special bats are taken away. Hence we all see what rules are in the books, and which one isn't.

It is all just economics, NOT safety first!

Sept. 7, 2012
frampton
Men's 55
55 posts
Look, I don't agree with the rule banning takeout slides; there is at all levels a rule that an umpire can call a double play if a takeout slide goes "over the line" (i.e., outside the baseline, or with apparent intent to injure). Beyond that (and speaking as someone who has played plenty of second and short over the years), there are lots of techniques middle infielders can use to avoid getting hurt on an ordinary slide into second -- use the base as protection (that is, set up on the left field side of second), come across the bag into the infield, or leave your feet as you throw. And, as someone else said, it just doesn't come up that much -- typically, if the runner is on the pivot man, there's no play at first either and you just get the force.

That said, it is a reasonably open process to adopt or change rules. And yes, there is a money element to it; players are voting with their dollars that they want composite bats. Making one aspect of the game (basepath collisions) safer does NOT mean that every other safety rule (banning composite bats) needs to be implemented. It's really up to those of us who play; there are certainly examples of the SSUSA changing rules based on player input. Maybe I'm in the minority regarding takeout slides; the rule won't keep me from playing. Clearly I'm in the majority regarding composite bats, which is why they're still legal. At bottom, it's up to every individual to decide if the right balance has been struck, and either play or don't. Without worrying about the "secret motivations" of the organizations.

Harrumph.
Sept. 7, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
I know what the association's motivation is, and it is certainly within their rights. I just find it unfortunate that they hide behind safety when implementing many rules, but blatantly ignore a clearly hazardous situation to pitchers and corner infielders when there is profit to be made.

Just be honest about it, and all is well.
Sept. 7, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4344 posts
We do not have to go out to the mound to pitch, this we choose to do, wear gear (I do) if your afraid of getting hit, which has happened to me. But I live with the thought and my choice. You are not ordered out there, take up cheerleading or some other sport Gary.
We all know I don't agree on much of the stuff that happens on here or said, but I still play because it offers the best events. They just need to enforce their own rules, not doing so is that word you used, H something to start the thread...lol.
Have a good weekend.
Sept. 7, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Scott, very true. But by that thinking we do not have to play middle infield and try to turn double plays, we choose to. So why protect those guys who are also making a choice?

Your stupid sarcasm aside, I have NEVER complained about playing against the senior bats. Only about the insecure egos who won't play without them, and the associations who allows them while claiming they care about safety. Again, I have NEVER (is that clear?) complained about balls being hit at me off of the bats.

And I do wear gear, a 12 3/4" Rawlings. When I need more, I will go do something else.
Sept. 7, 2012
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
If all I had to do when I came on this site was to PISS and Moan about SSUSA I would stop coming on and save myself the aggrevation. Gary your shit is and has become very old. Same shit with ALMOST every thread that is started.
You seem to have a need to trash nearly everyone and or evrything that is posted, or hijack them to your own selfish need.
Get over your simple ass self and leave those of us who actually support SSUSA play under their rules and with their approved equipment.
Again, I for one am sick and tired of your constant bad mouth shit!
Sept. 7, 2012
CAPT D5
124 posts
Most hitters want the best bats available, its competition, its human nature, its fun to see the ball fly over the fence. There is no need to insult people. Its understandable that pitchers would not like the senior bats, especially if they can't hit homeruns with them. The average player has never hit a homerun but still benefits, thats why they use the bats. It takes guts to pitch against some hard hitters. I admire those pitchers who accept the challenge. Most pitchers seem proud of meeting the challenge. Personally, I would rather see the senior bat removed from major level play so to make a homerun mean more. If most players want the bat and its allowed in the rules I accept it and will use and enjoy hitting with them. Out of respect to other player and to contribute to a positive atmosphere I will just play ball and leave the complaining and politics to their proper place. I really have not seen that many players injured because of the senior bats, and they do seem to add excitement.
Sept. 7, 2012
JGogo
Men's 65
16 posts
I have got to chime in on this discussion. I am fortunate to be one of a few who plays MSBL, NABA and Roy Hobbs baseball. I play baseball for the Washington Nationals and Chicago Skyliners and Chicago Windy City. I also play Senior Softball for Pace 60's. I enjoy both games but I say a prayer before each softball game because of the senior bats. I play shortstop and the softballs that are hit to me do not compare to any baseballs that I have caught in the last 15 years.

Senior baseball players have decided years ago to go to wood bats because of safety reasons. I have never seen a ball hit over the fences with wood bats in any Senior Baseball Tourney that I have played in. I am fortunate to play in the National Division in baseball which is the Super Major equivalent in senior softball. We play MLB rules and there are no runners and 90 foot bases with stealing. The major league diamonds that we play on in Arizona and Florida are huge and the wood bats with slower pitching really shrinks the field. We are seeing fastballs in the 60/65 division that top out at 70mph. The hitters can hit but the balls don't travel as far and as hard because of the slower pitching.

I just can't figure out why senior softball players with slower reflexes like the senior bats. Most balls that are hit come out like rockets. My baseball buddies watch the game and they are amazed at the speed of the balls coming off the senior bats. They ask me why I play softball and I tell them that in Rochester,NY there is really no alternative other than golf because our Senior baseball teams start at age 25 and the young guys don't want old timers with slower reflexes and slower foot speed.

Senior Softball is about money and the organizations don't care about safety. I was a Safety Engineer for 35 years and I can tell you that these senior softball bats are dangerous and should be outlawed. It is going to take several deaths before something is done.

Again, I am not trying to trash anyone or anything. I chose to take the risk and play softball with senior bats and i am just trying to share my opinion from a Senior Baseball player perspective.
Sept. 7, 2012
CAPT D5
124 posts
JGogo, No problem with your opinion, but the majority of players have voiced their preference to use senior bats. I disagree with them but respect their wishes. Many exciting sports have an element of danger. Men should be free to choose their sport and their choice respected, even if not completely understood or agreed with. We get enough second guessing from our wives. When the vote comes up I will vote against the senior bats being used by higher level players., but my vote is just one and I will respect the majority.
Sept. 7, 2012
bkb555
87 posts
if everybody used a U-trip bat, it could be just as dangerous....but this is what the players want...fast bats, fast balls....sure there is money involved but if we had a choice of wood or composite, i think the majority would use the composites....i am sure there are wood bat leagues around but I wouldnt play in it....safety is a concern no matter what association bat you use...they ALL come at you quickly
Sept. 8, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
"I just can't figure out why senior softball players with slower reflexes like the senior bats."

Good post. Here is why. They like to be able to hit balls in their 50s and 60s where many could not hit them in their 20s and 30s without the assistance of the technology of others. I have seen it first-hand with a number of guys. The other aspects of the game mean little to many of them, which is why there are runs per inning limits and "courtesy" runners. They just want to tell the grandkids "pappy hit a home run today!" My kids comment all the time about the "specialness" of our bats. Others must not have the same reality checks in their families.

"Senior Softball is about money and the organizations don't care about safety."

You are preaching to the choir with that one, sir!

Sept. 8, 2012
miken44
78 posts
we all play senior ball because that is were we are in life when you go to a tourny what bat is in your bag and what do you swing you have a choice either swing the senior bats or dont play we know what we swing are hotter than a asa 98 mph bat but we all have played long enough to also know how to hit a ball
Sept. 8, 2012
ChiPrimeMarty
Men's 55
65 posts
Good post, JGogo. With the slower reflexes & speed of senior players these bats are dangerous, and if anything they detract from the game. I see more shots over the fence in Senior ball than I ever did in 30 years of park district leagues. The balance between offense & defense has been tipped a long way towards offense.

But SSUSA wouldn't allow senior bats if the majority of players didn't want them. Hitting the ball harder & farther than when you were in your 20's & 30's has a big appeal to a lot of players even though (or perhaps because) it takes less skill to get a hit.

Money definitely plays a part in this. SSUSA and other organizations are businesses that make business decisions. We shouldn't be looking to them, we should be looking to oursleves on this issue. We should also look to our teammates who have a hard time affording all the expenses of traveling to tournaments -- PLUS shelling out cash every year for bats that break.

I use senior bats because the opposing team uses them, but I would definitely vote to ban them from our game.
Sept. 8, 2012
CAPT D5
124 posts
Perhaps the biggest danger in senior softball is the amount of games played in tournaments, especially in hot weather. I have heard of a number of older players dying during and after tournaments. Why not much concern for a better, less stressful, thus less dangerous games scheduling. This concern for bats has merit but safety my not be the real issue to some. If it is, look at injuries and deaths due to being struck by batted balls compared to those caused by exhaustion related issues. Perhaps more one day local tournaments, played like local baseball clubs once did. I know of travel leagues which play each other in double hitters with barbeques following. Maybe it's time to stop complaining and do something to improve the game. Maybe spend more effort in identifying possible, realistic solutions and contributing to making improvements.
Sept. 8, 2012
HJ
Men's 70
437 posts
Thank you Capt. It is time someone said to be realistic rather than be Don Quixote with windmills.

Being realistic, I think that not enough attention is paid to age. I read many comments from those still in their 50's which may be true for them, but not for those 60 and up. There are some freaks of nature (in the good sense) who seem never to age or lose ability, but in the 4 years I have played, I see major downgrades in
ability in my fellow players. Exit speed off a senior bat by those in their 50's is entirely different from the speed generated by those over
60 as a generalization. Each year I see pitchers who move to our league (which allows any bat) and
say they did so because the younger guys just hit the ball too fast. Even G19 has started to recognize age differences.
Sept. 8, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4344 posts
Capt,
I can remember about 3 actual leagues doing the comp against each other events in the 70\80's but honestly think now those would no longer be actual rosters but they become ringers placed onto teams for that competition.
I know of none that do it now other than some go into prisons to play inmates.
Where is it you know of them currently? What you describe sounds like a good time other than any bat allowed.
Sept. 8, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
HJ, I do acknowledge age difference, which puzzles me why 50s are playing with the same rules as 75s instead of closer to how guys in their 40s are still playing. I have said there are a fair number of guys around here, myself included, who still play with the kids. There are no age exceptions for us, including not using the special bats, and from what I have seen we all do fine.
Sept. 8, 2012
HJ
Men's 70
437 posts
Thank you Capt. It is time someone said to be realistic rather than be Don Quixote with windmills.

Being realistic, I think that not enough attention is paid to age. I read many comments from those still in their 50's which may be true for them, but not for those 60 and up. There are some freaks of nature (in the good sense) who seem never to age or lose ability, but in the 4 years I have played, I see major downgrades in
ability in my fellow players. Exit speed off a senior bat by those in their 50's is entirely different from the speed generated by those over
60 as a generalization. Each year I see pitchers who move to our league (which allows any bat) and
say they did so because the younger guys just hit the ball too fast. Even G19 has started to recognize age differences.
Sept. 8, 2012
CAPT D5
124 posts
Taits, I believe Penn Valley, near Grass Valley, Ca., had what they call a travel league playing double headers at different home fields, followed by a BBQ. Different senior leagues can pick teams to play each other at different levels. There are many possibilities. Senior softball has a tournament format but it's not the only way. Old baseball leagues in northern Ca., once had this type travel league. Age and ability levels need consideration, along with field lay outs, schedules and bats. Senior Softball has done a lot, but improvements are still needed. I no longer live near Penn Valley but know they have a web site and good contacts listed in the links. I know people in my new area are looking into different possibilities. Good luck in your area. Senior Softball is allowing senior bats perhaps appropriate for aging batters, but questionable for hitters still near prime. My first senior tournament with a senior bat resulted in 7 home runs in 2 games, that wasn't right. I often play short stop and want the game to be more than home runs.
Sept. 8, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4344 posts
Capt,
I know the place\area. Played there twice some years ago. I'm about 275 miles from there, PV. GV. Don't travel as much as I used to. But do miss it. There are literally dozens of leagues in the valley and even the smaller cities have them. Given what bats are out there and legal for what ever assn or league allows to be used, I doubt many will be using CU31 bats when they can use a composite. Personal preferences usually dictate along with cost\durability issues.
Given your last few sentences & past posts I figure your in the younger brackets and perhaps the assn should consider restricting bats to the ASA standard for them to prevent the safety risk some fear.
I doubt it would be considered, but you might think about going to the SSUSA summit convention this year in Mesquite, NV and voice your thoughts on that issue.
I have a slew of older 10-20+- yr old bats if ya need one, used and new.
Sept. 10, 2012
boston
299 posts
I am one that never understood why the Major/Major plus guys use senior bats. Most of these guys could hit Hr's using good USSSA bats. I believe it is the "WOW" moment. You hit a ball 350-400 ft rather than 310-340 ft. Still a HR just not as memorable as the "WOW" moment. I have a senior bat but only really use it against what I consider a competitive team. These are usually the teams w/ AAA/Major/Major+ players on them. Otherwise, I use my USSSA OG Freak or Duo 2.
For example: this weekend playing in the NM Senior Olympics. We played 2 teams that were 55/60 yr old AA or lower players, playing in the 55 division. I used my USSSA bats. Against the 55 team that had AAA/Major/Major+ broke out the Combat Snake. This is just my way of playing with a clear conscience knowing my ego didn't get in the way of me hurting someone less skilled or slower over a game. I don't know if this makes sense to anyone else but it works for me. I would vote to ban senior bats in a minute.
As for sliding to take someone out. When I first entered senior ball, I would have taken out my own brother. I was still extremely competitive and would do what was needed to win. I am 58 now and have a different outlook after 6 surgeries and loosing site of why I played senior ball. Now, I will slide but not to take anyone out. Although, I will with the kids. lol
One more thing in the Senior Olympics they used a pitching screen (by pitcher choice). The pitchers that used it would pitch from the side of the screen rather than behind it. When the umpire would tell them they could not pitch in that manner they had to be somewhat behind the screen. The pitcher would pitch and then step out to play defense. So here is an example of safety being implemented if wanted and players abusing it to suit their need.
Just play, have fun, pray to God nobody gets hurt and drink beer after. Good luck at Worlds everyone.
Sept. 10, 2012
southernson
257 posts
Guys,
This discussion about Senior Bats is not even applicable anymore. People who compete are going to find the best technology within the rules and utilize it. It's that way in softball, it's that way in life.

Anyone send a telegraph recently?

Use a non-motored lawnmower?

Trim the hedges with hand clippers?

Shave with a straight razor?

Use Brylcream?

Put the food scraps outside in a compost?

Use an outside facility for shall we say "relief"?

Go to the pub to listen to the footbal games on the radio?

Put the empty bottles outside for the milkman?

Have ice delivered to the house?

Go to the post office to get your mail?

Wear a leather helmet playing football?

Prefer to hit a Maxfli over a ProV1?

Use a persimmon driver?

Still play pro basketball in Converse tennis shoes?

Use wooden rackets playing tennis?

All of those would be ridiculous as we have better performing and more convenient options available that technology has brought us.

Senior bats are no exception, so deal with it and don't expect people to choose inferior options if better ones are available.

If you wanna go play in a wooden bat league, great, start one, put on National Tournaments, I'm sure it will be a great success.
Until then, if you are complaining about Senior bats, saddle up the horse and ride him to work....or let it go once and for all.







Sept. 10, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
How many of those have been banned for all but one small, select group of society? Then you would have analogies.

I couldn't care less what bats are used, but for anyone to approve the special bats while professing to care about safety in the senior game is hypocritical to say the least.
Sept. 10, 2012
southernson
257 posts
Yeah, there is some hypocrisy there.

But the truth is it's never been safe playing 3rd, bullets, nothing but bullets come that way.

It's never been safe pitching, the mound is way to close for anyone to expect any level of safety.

Playing the game comes with risk, it always has, it always will.
Sept. 10, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Perhaps, but not all bullets are created equal. That is like saying accidents will happen on highways no matter the speed limit so let's get rid of speed limits. Or people will murder anyway, so get rid of all laws prohibiting it.

You still draw a line to minmize rish as much as you can, and those lines do achieve minimizing.
Sept. 10, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Oops, how about we make "rish" risk...:)
Sept. 10, 2012
CAPT D5
124 posts
Players should use whatever bat they want that is legal, but the discussion and debate is still valid, even if some don't like hearing it. Some respect for differences might help. If there was not an issue the senior bats wouldn't be banned for younger players. Perhaps as competition improves with younger seniors the issue will need to be reexamined. Nothing wrong with debate. It's the disrespect that is intolerable to some. All games evolve, and senior softball is still at a developing stage it would seem. We can improve and adapt. Complaining about complaining, what's that.
Sept. 11, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
997 posts
Gary our limits are in place 44 375 balls and 121 bats... it's a far safer situation than what was being used at the beginning of SSUSA!
Now those of us that still play like the combination... dumbing it down anymore would be Horsecrap and not anything close to the game we played in the 80 and 90 with single walls and good balls!
Sept. 11, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
swing, a couple of things.

One, while it might be "safer" now doesn't mean it might still not have a little ways to go.

Two, the game you were playing in the 80s and 90s did not include 50-70 year old men with 50-70 year old speed, arm strength, vision, and reflexes. To keep the offense the exact same while the defense is undergoing a natural decline just throws the total game way out of balance. Which helps to cause things like run limits, HR limits, time limits, and every other silly limit instituted.

And all so many guys can do in their 50s and 60s what they couldn't in their 20s and 30s.
Sept. 11, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
swing, plus you say "Now those of us that still play like the combination". This is probably true, but keep in mind going by the very tiny level of tournament participation compared to those who are still active in senior ball at the local level, many, many must not.
Sept. 11, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
997 posts
Gary, I am not aware of who played in their 50s -70s twenty years ago, but I do know that each generation of our elderly seem to be taking better care of themselves... and the deal is this, we are not to far off in our 50 and 60s from pure power swing, but if you are saying 70 year olds are hitting them out like they were 30 I would say there is something wrong.. We all know that the cliff is steep the older we get.. Just don't think all 50 and 60 years are built equally! Some amazing talent out there and these guys can compete at any age group! I know I could!

BTW, we don't have any local things in the SF area where we could swing our Senior gear except for Tourneys... no leagues let us use them unless you travel 30 miles or so that I know of.

Gary, at the end of the Day, I feel it's a good ball bat combo and you don't... Can't imagine how you would of felt during the start of SSUSA when they were hitting Bluedots or better. I was hearing of them hitting the ball 450 ft to 500 ft.
Sept. 11, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
swing, I pitch and don't care what balls and bats are used, as long as the rest of the game is not made "whacky" to accommodate them. That really is, and has been, my only beef.

Let's just not bastardize the game just to accommodate the equipment and then claim it is being done in the name of safety. That is really what I don't like.
Sept. 11, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
997 posts
Well Gary, I see some of what you call Bastardizing the game as rules of the evolution of us aged ones. Courtesy runners/pinch runners are a nice caveat for other seniors/roll players to stay in the game IMO.. I play the crap out of the outfield and battled Plantar fasciitis all last year! I loved the rule.. Helped me get through the season!

Another rule I like is not having to cross home plate... just the line.. Saves any chance of collision or catcher blocking without the ball!

Then we have the 5 run rule and open inning and HR rules... I know the rules before I choose to play and find them to be right on target as to keeping the games competitive and within time limits... We don't need seniors playing 2hr games! FYI

Nothing is perfect in life Gary, and I feel blessed at my age that I can still play this game at a high level and have Zero problem with the rules of this game...

I would only impose one more rule but this is only my opinion and we have discussed before.. It has nothing to do with the ball and bat combo but more to do with any ball and bat combo in any league or tourney with Slow Pitch... I think there should be a pitcher safety rule if umpire deems a hitter is endangering the pitcher he is automatic out... if he does it again in same game he's ejected..

Other than that it's a great game Gary!


Sept. 11, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
If we are aging to the extent that these funky rules are needed, then why is the oldest, slowest group still playing using bats banned for all under 50. It is just grossly inconsistent.

As far as the courstesy runner, I have no problem with that. But you know it is abused. Let's make the runner the last out eligible to run. It would serve your purpose of not having to run so much without making it such a blatant abuse by using hand-picked rabbits. You can't possibly object to that if your real objective is just not having to run so much.

As far as the second home plate, it is okay I guess, but why are collisions at home the only concern. So collisions at second or third are somehow safer? How?

The players are supposed to keep the games competitive, NOT contrived rules. Again, a very Socialistic approach to the game, and not at all what real competitors want. If I need madeup rules to keep me competitive, I will find a new hobby.

I am glad you like the rules, but by the very low turnout at tournaments it seems like many are not willing to spend hundreds of dollars a weekend for that product in its current state. Participation, or in this case a lack of, speaks volumes.

Define "endangering". Are you talking about blatant attempts to injure, or just hitting a ball in the same zip code as the pitcher? If it is the former, I agree with that. If it is the latter, not so much. So we want a mat because we cannot trust umps to call balls and strikes, but will trust them to decide if the pitcher is in danger? Wow!

The day I cannot play the position, I will find another position or another hobby. I won't hide behind rules that make the game worse for others.
Sept. 11, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
997 posts
number one statement of yours is wrong 40s hit senior bats too.. FYI

homeplate is smaller than the bags and catchers tend to leave to little room however I don't see the bags as issues as much as home plate.. usually catchers are less athletic as your infielders defending bags..


pitcher rule is my opinion. not a rule yet or maybe never..!

Sept. 11, 2012
CAPT D5
124 posts
Info: Home plate collisions are more dangerous because runner is not concerned with over running and getting taged out after crossing the plate. Thus the runner goes in faster and thus is more prone to cause a more dangerous collishion. Also, no catchers gear in slow pitch.
Sept. 11, 2012
stick8
1274 posts
CaptD5 I'm a bit miffed at your last post. Wouldn't runners be going into second and third just as fast as they would home plate? I can understand the concern for oversliding at second and third but how would that necessitate going into those bases slower than you would to home?
Sept. 11, 2012
CAPT D5
124 posts
If the runner goes past the other bases, except running thru 1st base initially, the runner will be subject to being tagged out if off the base. This involves the close plays, where there is not a special run thru rule. To avoid going past the base the runner slows.The runner might when trying to bust up a double play slide thru because he is already out when the the baseman touches the base. At home plate when the runner touches the plate and crosses it, he is not subject to being tagged out, play already over. Also because home plate plays involve a run scoring, the plays can be more vigorously contested. If this isn't clear I will just accept the difference in views.
Sept. 11, 2012
CAPT D5
124 posts
Stick, Think of why the runner runs thru first base to beat out a ground ball. The runner would be slower getting to first base if he couldn't over run it. Of course, seeing how some seniors run, I can see how it might appear to not matter for some.
Sept. 11, 2012
missouridave
Men's 55
71 posts
Collisions at bases other than home are also covered. That is why there is a double bag at first base and why rule 8.6 prohibits runners from coliding with the fielders during a double play at second base.
Sept. 12, 2012
stick8
1274 posts
Capt D5 I can understand your point going into second or third if you don't slide--you want to be able to stop on the bag so slowing down would make that easier. Perhaps I'm different than some senior players but if I'm trying to advance to second or third and I see it's going to be a close play I'm usually sliding. While I acknowledge oversliding is a possibility that doesn't mean I slow down any before I execute the slide.
Sept. 12, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Once again correct, stick. That is the reason you do slide in that situation, so you don't have to slow down and don't overrun the base.
Sept. 12, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
997 posts
G19 no matter what the issue is with why they imposed a line at home to cross, I think it's a good rule just like the orange bag at first.. if you don't agree, that's your opinion!
Sept. 12, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
swing, never said I don't like it. Makes no difference to me. I am fine with one plate, I can live with two.

That is probably one of the least whacky of the whacky senior rules.
Sept. 12, 2012
CAPT D5
124 posts
No problem Stick and Swing, of course, believe or do what you think works. On the field is where it counts. Good luck.
Sept. 12, 2012
HJ
Men's 70
437 posts
I am curious about sliding. Although personally at 68 I still slide (but rarely and judiciously).
I would like to know % of sliders but please answer giving the age range. For example I play in a league of about 100 guy w/ 60 the minimum age. Maybe 1 or 2 guys slide a lot and 5 to 10 will do it if a critical play. My position is that in a league where most don't slide you should allow overrunning of 2nd and third and ban
all contact, with the only exception that a slider get the right of way.
Sept. 12, 2012
CAPT D5
124 posts
Stick, out of respect I read your post again. I agree, you may not slow down much before the slide, but once you contact the ground you will slow when going into the base. Unless your contact doesn't start until you reach the base. If you can do that type slide, more power to you. Like suggested before, try running to first and stopping without passing it whenever trying to beat out a single and see what your teammates say, if you are on a competitive team they may say a lot. Again, if it works great, words prove nothing.
Sept. 13, 2012
stick8
1274 posts
Capt D5 I believe you might be referring to a pop-up slide which isn't the easiest slide to execute. You are correct when you point out that while sliding you will slow down. Keep in mind that's caused by the ground, not necessarily telling yourself to slow down. It's commonly believed you can run thru a base faster than you slide--aka that's the argument against sliding into first base. When you slide it's usually to get under, weer left or veer right of a potential tag.
Sept. 13, 2012
stick8
1274 posts
HJ finding out how many senior players utilize sliding would be an interesting survey to take amongst the posters on here. I'll start a thread on that. Good call!!
Sept. 13, 2012
CAPT D5
124 posts
So Stick, you can run to the base and stop without overrunning it, faster than you can by running thru. OK!
Sept. 13, 2012
stick8
1274 posts
Capt D5 I don't believe I stated nor implied such a thing. I don't wish to split hairs here but the impression I originally got from you was baserunners run to home or first faster than they do to second or third. Being miffed at that perhaps I was mistaken in what you meant by your post, if so my error. Not speaking for anyone else but in all the years I've played I can honestly say I've never deliberately slowed down trying to take second or third where I sense or can see it's going to be a close play. I've seen many players, seniors included, who opt not to slide be able to stop on dime and stay on the base without noticably slowing down. I'll concede their speed may slow a little as they get close to the bag but to the naked eye I don't beleive it's really that noticeable. jmho
Sept. 13, 2012
CAPT D5
124 posts
Stick, Maybe there is confusion here. I originally said you will go into the base slower, (that would include the slide, if sliding), if you are having to worry about over running on close nonforce plays. If you don't slide or slow down, somehow, you will usually overrun. If you don't agree fine. Just answer, do you run thru first base or do you stop without running to first on close plays. I believe runners run thru first base because its faster. So collisions at home on close nonforce plays are more dangerous, the runner is usually going in faster, because of not worrying about being tagged out after passing the plate after scoring, thus the need for special rules. Think of Buster Posey.
Sept. 13, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Why not just go back to real softball, at least for the younger age groups, many of whom still play with the kids who do play something much closer to real softball.

Yea collisions can happen, but really not all that many. And for those who don't want to chance it there is always checkers.

I played with my son all summer and did not see any I can even recall and certainly did not cause any damage. This would solve all this silly talk and "debate".
Sept. 13, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
997 posts
Mr46/36 , I'm in my early 50s and the silly safety rules that you want to get rid of are important to the vast majority of us.. no need to have one freak accident for any one of us 40 or older... Takes a long time to heal.. FYI Hey Mr36/46, Take a look at the record amount of teams in Vegas for the worlds! I think there are well over 400 teams playing and enjoying SS with all the little silly rules! So your Rants of all the silly rules killing the game are far from the truth! Fly in and come watch or better yet come play.. I'm sure there is a AAA team that could use a 46/36 size pitcher with Major or Major+ talent pitching capabilities such as yourself!:-)
Sept. 13, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Put that tourney in Dubuque, or Sioux Falls, or Topeka and see if 400 teams show up. Sure it is a good turnout, but let's be honest about that very important contributing factor. Why else do you think it is held in a place like Vegas? Give Muncie a try, and see how many attend.

It is probably why places like those above get 3-team brackets. Are those signs of a healthy senior game?

If a team can pick me up for this, then it is much more a pickup tourney than a "worlds".
Sept. 13, 2012
boston
299 posts
I am glad to see the large turnout for Worlds I played Worlds in Phoenix for the past several years and even a couple years before the Seattle fiasco. Love the city and the facilities. But, I have to agree with G19 on this one. Vegas is an attractive venue. When you take into consideration teams and players from the east coast and their spouses would use this for a vacation. It is possible many teams are combining business with pleasure. Hopefully for the teams more business than pleasure. Anyway good luck to all attending and stay safe and healthy
Sept. 13, 2012
CAPT D5
124 posts
Before the rules were changed to avoid homeplate collisions, I know of players crippled from knees taken out by runners going in hard at home. Some rules make sense. Most of us don't play to prove our manhood. Especially at this stage in life. A dose of good sense is appreciated.
Sept. 13, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4344 posts
Gary, You talk of putting 400 teams in those other towns, but I doubt there are 10 parks that could hold 400 teams for an event like this. PHX, RENO, Vegas, St G, Mesquite, Maybe inSo Ca if you spread teams all over you could, & FL, but I am not familiar with many other large events in other places than these. Most are well planned out but its true some fields are really bad and shouldn't be used again.
So, Gary19 you put one on, show all of us you can do it better. I doubt it. But I challenge you to do it on your own. Get the parks\fields needed, book the umps, get the insurance, get the teams, make the schedules, yea there is more too. You have no idea what it take to do even a small one of say 18-24 teams.
Sept. 13, 2012
CAPT D5
124 posts
Safety rules relying on umpire judgements are suspect. I have seen too many injuries that no umpire could or would prevent. Most of the field layout rules appear overall reasonabke, though subject to review and change as needed. A difference between baseballs and softballs, from what I have read, is the baseball does more deep serious trauma due to it's denser core. The softball supposedly does more surface, wider trauma, but not as deep and serious , though its of course capable of serious injury. Debate and discussions concerning safety are worthwhile even if occasionally becoming a little silly sounding. Sometimes we learn even by silly debate.
Sept. 14, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Once again making it personal, very sad on your part Scott....:(

You completely miss the point, a point that boston seemed to understand quite easily.

By the way, Columbus, Ohio could do it with fields to spare. Are 400 teams going to show up there that time of year?
Sept. 14, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
997 posts
Gary, a healthy Senior game is putting on events that people will show up.. Why didn't you throw in Mars or Pluto with your "Dubuque, or Sioux Falls, or Topeka" comments. 400 plus teams in Vegas is a healthy program IMO! You try to down play SSUSA with non destination spots. News flash, there was a nice turnout in Phoenix last year too. Your point about the special bats and silly rules ruining the game does not add up... But, good luck with your rants!
Sept. 14, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
swing, 400+ teams in Vegas is an anomoly.

Phoenix is very appealing to most of the country that time of year too. Again, try doing it any time of year in Buffalo and see how many attend. Then you will see who is coming for the softball.

Once again, boston had no problems understanding this simple concept.

Good luck with your shilling.
Sept. 14, 2012
RIK56
Men's 50
120 posts
well said swing,the tournment in buffalo would still have more teams then any other association.yes phoenix is appealing and so is vegas,gary attend some tournments then you might see who is coming for softball guess what all 400 plus teams are coming to compete and play softball and to win the tournment.
Sept. 14, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
I have attended events, though unfortunately the half-dozen I did had the usual 3 or 4 team brackets.

BUT the tournament in Buffalo would not have near 400. Just wouldn't.

Stil nice to see boston got it, though sad he is the only one.
Sept. 14, 2012
RIK56
Men's 50
120 posts
didnt say it would have 400 teams said it would have more teams then any other association.what events, you live in the midwest and i have not seen you yet.
Sept. 14, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Columbus, Louisville, Lansing, Shelbyville, Brook Park. Can't think of the other, it was a while back.

I can agree it might very well have more than the others, but probably nowhere near the 400+ that so many want to use to claim the thriving of senior softball. Not without the attraction of a city like Vegas, or even the weather in Phoenix.
Sept. 14, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4344 posts
The game is personal to me. All you do is knock it and always come up with BS for solutions. If you are so educated in the game, do it like I mention.
And you know the 400 is possible because ...? I doubt though the area is as scenic as Reno, Vegas or St G. I haven't been to PHX.
I know I wouldn't go to Ohio to play that's all.
All you are is a post counter like one other person. At least I post valid or helpful info the vast majority of time. You can't say that or even close.
Sept. 14, 2012
kid 32
20 posts
Have played softball in Vegas several times, great place to go, but only Arroyo Complex is really worthy of a Major softball tourney! Great place for fun though!

Taits dont knock Ohio, its a great part of the country! There is a single complex in Columbus, Ohio called Berliner with 16 fenced and lighted fields, 6 of them have a new type turf fields that can be played on during the rain or right after downpours! Its not the old type turf that is dangerous either, was very imppressed with it! There is also about 12 other diamonds without fences as well! All the diamonds are well maintained as well! Just saying!
Sept. 14, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
"I know I wouldn't go to Ohio to play that's all."

Again, a stupid personal comment.

NO way Columbus gets the same participation as Vegas, just common sense for those of us who have some.

"All you are is a post counter like one other person. At least I post valid or helpful info the vast majority of time. You can't say that or even close."

The fact that you cannot comprehend my posts let's me know I am writing above an 8th grade level. And who has said your posts are "valid or helpful"? Your family?

kid, you are absolutely correct about Berliner. Very nice facility, but no way 400+ teams will be in Columbus the same weekend if that is the number Vegas is drawing.
Sept. 15, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
997 posts
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm Ohio VS Vegas? LOL no brainer Mr 46/36!
Sept. 15, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Not my point at all, swing. For him to say he wouldn't go to Ohio to play, like some 6 year old, was just stupid.

You know, I have been here 54 years not counting my two years in Ann Arbor, and have not visited Vegas once. Just not my cup of tea.
Sept. 15, 2012
RIK56
Men's 50
120 posts
gary did you say again,a stupid personal comment,you are the king of stupid personal comments,and whats this 46/36 garbage give me a break i think its closer to 36/46.swing you going to be in vegas.
Sept. 15, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
RIK, I will hear about this one from my buddy swing but here goes anyway, anytime you want to take your shirt off and stand next to me I am game to reciprocate. And I will certainly spare you coming into the weight room with me.
Sept. 15, 2012
RIK56
Men's 50
120 posts
at 5"9 and 240 with a 40 waist most everybody looks better then me,but i will tell you what i will put my softball skills against you any day and twice on sunday,you get on here and brag about how smart you are and your 46/36 i"m sure many players on here are smart and have great sets of guns but you dont see them bragging about it,you are just a little man nothing more.and i play the same postion as you if you want to except my challenge.


Rich {Richie} Fischer
number 16
50 caliber softball st.louis mo
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