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Discussion: This is a first...

Posted Discussion
Sept. 23, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
997 posts
This is a first...
In a game today, I was on second and there bases were loaded... there was a pause in the game as they threw in HR balls.. so anyway the game resumes and a three bouncer is hit to the shortstop... He drops a ball out of his glove and then fields the hit ball.. I was like WTF how can he have a ball in his glove before the pitch... I was on second and he clearly didn't call time and make any notion that he was holding a ball. Umpire called it an out as he threw and forced a runner out for the third out.. Any opinions?
Sept. 24, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Not sure if any rule covers this, but to me it just seems right to call no-play and do the pitch over.

If anything that hurts the defensive team who committed the screw-up anyway. Doesn't sound like the SS had any malice, just might have messed up and got caught holding a ball he should have called time and thrown in.
Sept. 24, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
997 posts
Well G19 I feel the same way.. let's just say I'm in the outfield and I have a ball in my glove.. I dive and catch a ball err miss a ball but I show the umpire the ball that I had all along in my glove.. I say if there two balls on the field it should be dead ball do over..if there isn't a rule there should be!
Sept. 24, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
That just feels right to me. Sometimes common sense has to prevail.
Sept. 24, 2012
Mr. Nick
4 posts
Even though it was our team (Bad Seed) in the field, I'm in agreement that the right call would have been no-play. I do know there was no malice but our shortstop should have called time out (if he had time before the pitch). I'm glad the call did not affect the outcome of a very close game.
Sept. 24, 2012
Tim Millette
481 posts
I thought the first was Swing making it to second base? :)
Sept. 24, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
997 posts
your right tim, I only had walk offs and singles. ;)

Nick, you are right about it was a good game and it didn't change anything! I just never even seen or heard of this happening... I am the left center fielder for the Barons.. It was pretty amusing though!
Sept. 24, 2012
HJ
Men's 70
437 posts
Disagree. As you described it, the ball in the glove had no effect on the play. SS caught hit ball and threw out the batter. End of story.
If the extra ball had affected the play in anyway, then either penalize the fielding team in some equitable way or do over. Innocent batting team shouldn't be penalized in any way if applicable but in case at issue the extra ball simply had no effect so batter is out.
Sept. 25, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
I see what you are saying, but I still think you have to call no-pitch.

Still interesting that (a) the SS didn't say anything about it and (b) the pitcher did not notice what was happening when he should have been checking his defense.
Sept. 25, 2012
HJ
Men's 70
437 posts
Why does the batting team get a 2nd chance when bonehead SS senior moment did not affect the play
in question?
Sept. 25, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Because the defensive team messed up, and perhaps the sight of the second ball affected the baserunner(s). We don't know, but the possibility of that occuring was all due to the defense.

And because the defensive team broke protocol by having a second ball on the field. ALL of the mistakes (SS holding a ball, pitcher not noticing) were made by the defense. NONE by the team batting.

It's not really a second chance, but more getting the first chance correct.

Sept. 25, 2012
HJ
Men's 70
437 posts
If the baserunners were affected in any way by the dropped ball, I agree. However, there were 2 outs and runners should have been moving as soon as ball crossed plate and not looking around. A 3
hopper probably gave the SS an easy force at 2nd or third.
Sept. 25, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
997 posts
okay h J how about if an outfielder has the ball in his glove lBall is hit over the fence outfield er goes up like he's going to a catch a ball umpire doesn't see that the outfielder still has a ball in his glove outfielders shows the ball in this glove like he caught it, the bottom line is that is affecting the call of the umpire I think it should be dad ball
Sept. 25, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
997 posts
dead ballnot dad ball errrrrrrrrrrrrr phone auto correct!
Sept. 25, 2012
HJ
Men's 70
437 posts
Cheating and dishonesty speak for themselves.
Swing, nothing you stated in your story indicated in any way that what happened affected the play.
If it affected it in any way, different story.
Who did the SS force out- at second or third?
Was the runner affected? If any scintilla of evidence that he slowed down, then a do over.
Sept. 25, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
997 posts
Number one, I don't care about if the play was effected at all.. I just know if there were a ball in my glove, I would of made an attempt to call time.. nothing was called and I was on second, Ball was hit and I saw the SS drop the ball to field the hit ball.. it just seams to me to be a bit odd situation! If I'm making the rules, I would call it either a dead ball do over, or an awarded base to the batter like Catchers interference. A fielder with another ball in his glove should have to make an attempt to call time or let everyone know he has another ball in his glove. No attempt is just not a good enough reason to play-on and let's just see what happens.. IMO
Sept. 26, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
swing, you are on a roll......:) Correct again!
Sept. 26, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4344 posts
I see the old hidden ball trick still works w\ 'dishonest' players.
Sept. 26, 2012
boston
297 posts
Has anyone bothered to look up the official rule on such a play? Why didn't the umpire realize all balls thrown in were not returned to the proper team? Timeout is usually called in those situations until all balls have cleared the field.
HJ: The fact that it didn't affect the play is mute. There is a protocal when another ball or object are on the field. It is no different when a ball is hit onto a field from another field and the umpire calls timeout, no pitch in mid swing. Let's look at it this way. What would have happened if the SS didn't drop the other ball? What if the batter hit a linedrive and the SS couldn't get the other ball out of his glove in time? The other ball affected his chance to make the play runners safe and inning continues. Should it be a deadball no pitch or just say oh well "You should have called timeout".
Sept. 26, 2012
HJ
Men's 70
437 posts
Ok, what if batter hit an out of the park HR and the SS drops the ball? Do over? No. Then the SS benefits by his screw up. Yes the ump should have been aware, but you can't change the facts. What if the ball were hit to someone else who made the
play and the SS dropped the ball. The SS still screwed up, but it didn't affect anything. Catcher's interference is because something was affected. Really don't feel that strongly about it as long as the hitting team isn't adversely affected if they otherwise would have had a good at bat, i. e., no do over if not an out.
Sept. 26, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
What if the Queen had nads?

People can "what if" all day. Fact is an object was on the field that did not belong. Dead ball, period! Just not that difficult, guys.
Sept. 26, 2012
Tim Millette
481 posts
You guys gotta understand, Swings Barons team has a few guys that cry about everything, during almost every ncssa game, and many times before the ncssa tourneys event start...

The Balls not hard enough,

we shouldn't give them runs,

they are to good to be ranked there,

that guy shouldn't get to play,

we shouldn't give them an extra fielder...

What do you mean they are awarded home team...

That guy shouldn't be playing senior ball/ he hits singles up the middle

That team shouldn't be able to win the event, they should be exhibition only

They are stalling up

Cry cry cry cry cry cry cry cry cry cry cry cry cry

I guess now there is a new thing to cry about.....

He had a ball in his glove before the play was hit to him. Sure he flipped it out of the way and it didn't confuse our player one bit but...... Surely there has to be a way for us to cry about it......

What's next.... Wa, ump, be had sunflower seeds in his hand and threw them to the ground before he caught my pop up..... We need a do over.

Swing is learning well from his softball masters..... Maybe his team could get a Kleenex sponsorship

Anyway... Swing asked for opinions I his opening post so there it is
Sept. 26, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Tim, the SS f'd up. His pitcher f'd up. Actually probably so did the umpire. The only ones who didn't are the team batting.

What is difficult about this? Though clearly you have your own agenda in all of this.
Sept. 26, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
997 posts
Timmothy, why don't you leave my team out of it and come up with something credible for a change.. It's hard to understand What Tom Eakin See's in you as a MTC manager... No body is talking about crying here, but you. We won the game and are not crying about this play.. just would like to have a black and white clarification of what should happen if this happens again. Anyway Timmothy, Good luck in Vegas to your MTC team!
Sept. 26, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
997 posts
BTW Timmothy, another Classless post by you! Grow The F up!
FYI I'm my own master.. don't need anyone to sway me on a turd when I can see it standing right in front of me! FYI
Sept. 26, 2012
Tim Millette
481 posts
Sorry swing, I just saw your view that this issue should have been a dead ball/do over or a awarded base when it happened to your Barons team as a new version of the Baron's crying....

Considering how much some in your Barons group cried all season I have to admit I am probably all Baron whined out.

Anyway...... Good luck to you guys in Vegas also......I'd hate to see us lose a good NorCal team because they crapped the bed at Worlds....

We need as many good teams in NorCal as possible.

As far as classless and f-d up goes.....the truth is what it is....sorry if it hurts your feelings but....your Barons team wins NCSSA whiners of the year award.
Sept. 26, 2012
HJ
Men's 70
437 posts
So G19, if I understand you correctly, the ball is pitched the batter hits a HR, the SS drops a ball and we have a do over???
To be charitable, I think you are saying the SS messed up so the batter should get a second chance. I still think if the mess up did not affect the play, so what. Time to move on, and what if's are used all the time in logical discussions to test the reasoning.
Sept. 26, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
HJ yes you can use hypotheticals, which is all "what ifs....." are, but at some point you have to stop being a slave to them and letting them paralyze the discussion or any hope of logic.

Again your scenario, as far-fetched as it is though I suppose by some loooooong stretch of the imagination feasible, should not over-rule what common sense should dictate. Just my opinion.
Sept. 26, 2012
Mulewhipper
61 posts
When it first happened...I thought, this should be an automatic dead ball and do a re-pitch...extra balls shouldn't be on the field of play for god's sake...but the umpire didn't see it happen until after the ball was hit.
After thinking about it for a moment, I agreed with the umpires call, the extra ball didn't affect the play at all so the umpire made the correct call.
Kind of like if after the ball was hit, the umpired noticed a ball lying on the outfield grass after someone tossed in a homerun ball.

I don't think anybody whined too much about it...our Manager, who was just doing his job...he asked for better clarification from the umpire regarding his decision and the umpire explained it and we moved on...no harm no foul.

It sure does sound like someone is crying for sure...but it's not the Baron's.

Sept. 26, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
997 posts
Well, Mule! It was an interesting topic until my thread was Hijacked by MTCs Tim Millete. Anyway, this was a first for me, I never had this happen at any time in baseball or softball. I haven't seen anyone come out with a black and white etched in stone rule regarding this subject. Would be nice to have someone like SSUSA or some umpires on this site chime in.
Sept. 26, 2012
Mulewhipper
61 posts
That's because there is no rule for it...and it goes directly to rule 9.01c...a judgement call.
Sept. 26, 2012
HJ
Men's 70
437 posts
Why is it "common sense" to take away a HR from an innocent batter and team, when the other team did something wrong?? An automatic do over would be entirely unjust and might encourage more such outrageous behavior. This is not being a slave to anything- it is pointing out that an automatic do
over might have unintended consequences that most would agree are wrong. The ad hominum attack was uncalled for but not unanticipated.
Sept. 26, 2012
Smokey20
Men's 55
102 posts
9.01c an umpires best friend. Anything not covered in the rule book is the judgement of the umpire.

As an umpire I would generally penalize the team committing the infractions. Having an effect on the play is irrelevant. The SS not yelling for a timeout prior to the pitch does leave some question.

In this case I would have called dead ball and resumed the at bat. If the batted ball resulted in a positive result for the offense I would let it stand.

Sept. 26, 2012
Smokey20
Men's 55
102 posts
Oh, Swing,

Pls put it on ignore. We've been thru this before.
Sept. 27, 2012
5ToolsinOhio
Men's 50
160 posts
Not sure which topic/thread is worse...this one or the sliding one, i can see a few responses and such, but these two threads have gone to long wow!lol.
Sept. 27, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
What "attack"? What possible attack?????

What size are your panties so I can get you a Christmas present?
Sept. 27, 2012
Mulewhipper
61 posts
Listen to Smokey swing....
Sept. 27, 2012
Nancy Allen
Men's 55
606 posts
I have not had exactly this happen before, I sure have had a ball come on the field in the middle of play. Many times there is someone calling for time. Once the pitcher starts their pitching motion, it is game on, and only after play has ended legitimately can time be called. Anything else is not fair to the situation. So the SS had a senior moment with no ill intent. The outcome of the play is what it is except in the sand lot.
Sept. 27, 2012
Tim Millette
481 posts
Swing, I am with Ron on this one..... Listen to Brian. Except the part about his umpire call.

We have been through this before....

It's not worth crying over meaningless things on the softball field.

Especially when the SS having the ball in his glove as your player hit that three hopper had no effect on how he hit the ball.

I think it's great you Baron guys are seeing that whining about every little thing is weak..... And you should just ignore all the crying that's been done by others associated with you.

Lord knows everyone associated with NCSSA will be happy to hear the whining is over.
Sept. 27, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
"Once the pitcher starts their pitching motion, it is game on, and only after play has ended legitimately can time be called. Anything else is not fair to the situation"

So, if tenths of a second after the pitcher starts his motion the SS get hit by lightning, it is "game on"? Really? Wow!

Sure that is an exaggerated situation, but Nancy your comment has to be tempered with some common sense.
Sept. 27, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Oh, and there was that silly "senior moment" comment again....:(

Thank God the guy is not running a nation, like many of his contemporaries. Hate to see a senior moment result in a nuclear attack. Or failing to attempt to defend against one.

And how do you know he had "no ill intent"? He might very well not have, but he is the ONLY one who knows for sure.
Sept. 27, 2012
Nancy Allen
Men's 55
606 posts
Swing, I once had a toddler stroll onto the field in the middle of an infield hit with bases loaded. Fortunately I saw him and was close. I got him against my legs and said something to try and not scare him. I figured if the ball came our way that I could turn and take the hit instead. After I called time, I asked if the little guy belonged to anyone. No one had seen him but me. They sure watched out for him after that though.
Sept. 27, 2012
HJ
Men's 70
437 posts
It is interesting that he who calls one a slave to what if's comes up with a way out what if-lightning. My what if was right on point- the batter gets a clean hit. You never bothered to answer it. What if the SS bobbled the ball and all were safe and the winning run scored. Do over?? I think not. Nancy and I are in total agreement. Your panties comment is not worth dignifying with a response. It is interesting when logic fails you you resort to invectives. Some of us are able to say I agree with you and your opinion makes sense and is better than my original thought. It is called being a grownup and intellectually honest. Well you are only in your 50's. Hopefully you will grow up before senior moments take over your thought processes if they haven't already. I am leaving for a few weeks and hope relevant threads are here when I return w/o being hijacked by personal attacks.
Sept. 27, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Logic didn't fail me at all, I just realized you were having difficulty with it and thought I would try something different. Now where was the "attack"?

I can say I agree too, if I did. In the situation described, dead ball plain and simple. NO reason for the SS to have been holding the ball, NO reason for the pitcher not to have noticed it. NO reason to take any chance it had an adverse effect on the innocent batting team.

And NO senior moments for anyone. Just an excuse for making a mistake, and not a very good one.
Sept. 27, 2012
Nancy Allen
Men's 55
606 posts
HJ, I believe that applying the rules fairly is a very important quality in umpiring and hope that I always am fair when these situations arise. It always surprises me when anyone thinks the offense is more important than the defense or the other way around. Safety was not part of the original scenario; so I did not address it. In my original reply, the ones asking for time in the middle of the play can get emotional, but the ball is in play. I cannot take that away as part of applying rules fairly.
Sept. 27, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Nancy, you must then be completely surprised by senior softball since the use of the special bats by the oldest, slowest group still playing the game certainly implies that offense if more important.

Nancy, can you concede your earlier blanket statement about waiting for the play to "legitimately" end was a bit strong? Here is a "what if" for you HJ, but with seniors entirely possible, a player has a heart attack in the middle of a live ball. Or at least an episode resembling one. Do you wait for the ball to be retrieved, thrown into the infield, the runners to stop running, and time requested before you grant it?
Sept. 27, 2012
Nancy Allen
Men's 55
606 posts
HJ, I believe that applying the rules fairly is a very important quality in umpiring and hope that I always am fair when these situations arise. It always surprises me when anyone thinks the offense is more important than the defense or the other way around. Safety was not part of the original scenario; so I did not address it. In my original reply, the ones asking for time in the middle of the play can get emotional, but the ball is in play. I cannot take that away as part of applying rules fairly.
Sept. 27, 2012
Tim Millette
481 posts
Does anyone know how loooooong the Barons cried about the no do over call.

I wasn't there but my over and under would be four minutes...

Maybe swing can let us know.

I can't wait to read the next one.......

Let's see....pitcher throws a strike against our team and blows a bubble with his gum at the same time...is this fair? I think it should be a do over or at the least an automatic ball.
Sept. 27, 2012
Mulewhipper
61 posts
Tim.. seriously... what are you like 12 years old?
You post the most immature crap on here... grow up and get a freakin clue.
Sept. 27, 2012
Nancy Allen
Men's 55
606 posts
Bingo, that is why there are rules. I may not always agree with them, but the job is to apply and to enforce them. While I might feel bad someone got a bad hit that is not a good reason to make up a do over rule. The Barons are more than welcome to fuss at me because given that everything Swing says was as it happened, the ump did the right thing.

Maybe you should ump before you tell someone else how to.
Sept. 27, 2012
Nancy Allen
Men's 55
606 posts
Bingo, that is why there are rules. I may not always agree with them, but the job is to apply and to enforce them. While I might feel bad someone got a bad hit that is not a good reason to make up a do over rule. The Barons are more than welcome to fuss at me because given that everything Swing says was as it happened, the ump did the right thing.

Maybe you should ump before you tell someone else how to.
Sept. 27, 2012
Smokey20
Men's 55
102 posts
Ms. Allen,

Some have extensive experience umpiring. In my case over 32 years of youth, highschool, junior college, college baseball, and all levels if slow pitch softball.

The case in which Swing is talking about was a dead all situation prior to the at bat in question. A homeruns was hit for a single to load the bases. Several homerun balls were thrown back in at this time. Ump turned his back to store balls, returned to the plate and said play.

At no time did the SS ask for time to let the ump know he had a ball.

I have no idea way the SS did this, nor do I know his intentions but as an umpire when something foreign or unusual (child) happens on my field my natural action is to call time, stop the action and access what happen.

9.01C since the defense introduced the object I would at minimum replay the pitch or a worst award first base to the batter. One the same hand if it was the offense say tossing a ball in the field of play from the dougout and there guy gets a hit or homerun we again replay the pitch at mininuim or at worst call the batter out.
Sept. 27, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
997 posts
first thing, I think this is a great subject because not to many know what the rule is.. Umpires discretion is the best answer so far... My feeling is that if there is no attempt to call time by the player with a ball in his glove then it should be a dead ball award to the hitting team. But that is my opinion. As for the Very Few that think this is not a good discussion, move on to another thread. At 50 plus years of age I have never seen this happen and wondered what the rule would be. Ditto Mulewhipper! Smoke, nicely said excluding the typo's! ;-)
Sept. 27, 2012
Nancy Allen
Men's 55
606 posts
Smokey, thank you for the further clarification of the situation and your thoughts.

I get a little cranky when people who have never umped talk about feelings, common sense, and do overs.

I only have 18 years including national tournaments from Alabama to California for several associations and a few hundred games of fast pitch bases. I know that at the levels that you have done that you have had even more training than I have.

Human safety is always first, but being fair and getting it right are my goals. You have my respect, and I am not saying either one of us is right or what we might have actually done in the situation. I also do not have the advantage of being there or talking with the ump that was there.

On the toddler, I still think that I did the right thing by shielding him with my body, and I am sure that I could have done nothing fair. Taking away the defense's double play just because it was their child does not seem fair to me, and I am glad that the child was not hurt.

I still believe that I would treat the original situation as a live ball, and you would treat it as you described. Maybe we are right, and maybe we are not, but at least we have backgrounds behind our thoughts. Those that have not umped do not have a basis. Maybe we can talk more about it another day. Thanks.
Sept. 27, 2012
Tim Millette
481 posts
So how about this one...

Batter is up...

Bases loaded...

Hitter hits a three hope grounder to SS.

SS picks it up and forces runner at third base....

Man on second sees right fielder has a ball in his glove because a fan threw a homerun ball in....

Out of play ball being held by defensive player when the ball was hit had no impact on inning ending play.....

Now three questions...

1)did the Out of play ball have any impact on the play?

2)Should the umpire listen the the Barons about how the play should be a take over, or a automatic single....

3) will the complaining go on for more then five minutes


Sept. 27, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
997 posts
I think the MTC should break up for winning the state championship North cal thread jerker!
Sept. 28, 2012
Smokey20
Men's 55
102 posts
Ms. Allen,

That's why 9.01C is an umpires best friend. There is no wrong answer.

Take care.
Sept. 28, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
"I get a little cranky when people who have never umped talk about feelings, common sense, and do overs."

On what basis did you make that asinine statement? I hope your calls on the field are more correct than that comment was. Wow, what a HORRIBLE assumption.....:(
Sept. 28, 2012
Tim Millette
481 posts
So how about this one...

Batter is up...

Bases loaded...

Hitter hits a three hope grounder to SS.

SS picks it up and forces runner at third base....

Man on second sees right fielder has a ball in his glove because a fan threw a homerun ball in....

Out of play ball being held by defensive player when the ball was hit had no impact on inning ending play.....

Now three questions...

1)did the Out of play ball have any impact on the play?

2)Should the umpire listen the team cry about how the play should be a take over, or a automatic single....

3) will the complaining go on for more then five minutes


Sept. 28, 2012
Nancy Allen
Men's 55
606 posts
Smokey, you are the best; maybe someday I will get to work with you. Umpires do not talk about situations as much as they used to, and we need to.

Tim, is this more about calls or the Barons? Their name keeps coming up in these posts, not just from you. I only wish that the umpire was here to give his take. Try to assume good intent from people unless they have proven that they do not deserve it. Remember there is between the lines, and then there is real life.
Sept. 30, 2012
stick8
1272 posts
If I'm umping I have an immediate dead ball and a do over.
Sept. 30, 2012
Mango
Men's 50
89 posts
Swing, not sure of your situation but maybe some of you have heard the true story of the “potato Pick-off”. In a minor league baseball game in the 80’s a catcher snuck a potato, peeled to look like a baseball, onto the field. With a runner on third base he pulled the potato out of his pocket and fired it wildly over the head of his third baseman. The runner on third came trotting home only to be tagged out by the catcher who was waiting for him with the real ball. After the umpires realized what had happened, they ruled the runner safe and the catcher was pulled from the game - by his manager (and I believe, released from the team the next day). Obviously, the catcher’s intention to deceive was taken into consideration. A little bit different than your situation but a pretty amusing story.
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