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Discussion: Would Plus ball participation improve if ......

Posted Discussion
Nov. 19, 2012
Tim Millette
465 posts
Would Plus ball participation improve if ......
It's obvious that the current plus systems are not working to grow the Plus Division so how about this one.

Since every SSUSA Champion is bumped except for the Plus Champion.

Why not bump the plus Champion the the Plus age group one level younger for a period of two years?

That way every Division World Champion (except for the 40s) is treated equal.
Nov. 19, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
976 posts
I never see any of the Plus division players complaining about their division so why should you??????..
Nov. 19, 2012
Malo37
52 posts
He's obsessed with the Plus division. It's funny too because Tim has a great team. MTC is loaded. They would fare well in the plus division......
Nov. 19, 2012
donll
55 posts
It's obvious why he is obsessed. And why he gives faulty logic arguments to justify his behavior. He is playing on a Plus team in the major division. So he gives all kinds of reasons why he is not playing where he belongs...its called rationalization. Rumor has it he cost his team the World with an error just to avoid playing with the Big Boys. Weather or not he did it on purpose or the incredible weight of having to play where he wouldn't be the Top Dog made him tremble and freeze up is subject to speculation.
Nov. 19, 2012
Tim Millette
465 posts
Actually I made the error because I put myself in a possition I had never been in before.

And no.... I don't think our record over the last teo years proves we are a plus team.

As for the issues with Plus ball.....I see senior ball being hampered because a few Dominant Plus teams are runining ruff shod over the Plus Divisions.

There would be potentially more Plus teams if the Dominant Plus Champions we're bumped after winning Plus Worlds.... I just say give the Plus Champions a choice similar to those given to every other Division in senior ball.... They can return to the plus Division they just dominated or stay to tether and move up.... In this cAse it would be to the Plus Division an age group younger... Step up or step out!!!!
Nov. 19, 2012
Tim Millette
465 posts
I meant to say they can return to the Us Division they just dominated with 6 returning players... Or stay together and move up to a new Plus Division an age group younger.
Nov. 19, 2012
Tim Millette
465 posts
Actually I made the error because I put myself in a possition I had never been in before.

And no.... I don't think our record over the last teo years proves we are a plus team.

As for the issues with Plus ball.....I see senior ball being hampered because a few Dominant Plus teams are runining ruff shod over the Plus Divisions.

There would be potentially more Plus teams if the Dominant Plus Champions we're bumped after winning Plus Worlds.... I just say give the Plus Champions a choice similar to those given to every other Division in senior ball.... They can return to the plus Division they just dominated or stay to tether and move up.... In this cAse it would be to the Plus Division an age group younger... Step up or step out!!!!
Nov. 20, 2012
LeeLee
86 posts
To Donll

Tim didn't cost us the game nor did he throw the game in anyway. We MTC lost that game, we as team didn't play good enought to win, plain and simple. Donll you sound like someone of players in NY Jets locker room. If you are going to start a rumor than put your name on it.
Nov. 20, 2012
Mario
Men's 50
346 posts
There have been 3 different Plus temas win the Worlds in the last year. So dynasty talk is all just that, all talk. Us Plus players would like to see more teams, but we are also realist, we know there are not that many teams that want to play in the top division. Its common knowledge that we like some changes, like going to 90 minute games or no time limits so we can get the full game in. But I don't hear Plus players complaining that much on this board, it usually coming from people who are afraid of moving up. Oh by the way, just so everyone knows I'm #10 on OKI and my name is Dale Mayo.
Nov. 20, 2012
Tim Millette
465 posts
Mario..glad to know who you are....

I am sorry...

I mistook you for a guy that was posting on here last year that he always played the TOP Division. Even when he was young and played "Major ball in ASA..."

That guy was a little pissed when I had to enlighten everyone/him that ASA Major was one level BELOW SUPER..

Now back to this subject.... I have heard many Plus teams lobbying for
Major teams to get bumped or merged with Plus...

I am sure if the Major, AAA and AA senior Champs were allowed to stay in their Champion Division they would all win again either, so I don't understand the Different winners thing, especially when one 50 team took a year off.

My views on Plus are based on how well removing the Champion from the Division they just won is working in every other Division of senior ball....

If your team dominated and Won a World Championshio would you guys be scared to take the challenge and move up and play the plus Division one age group younger for a couple years???

I mean after all, your competetive right?

I mean it's not like your some Riverside guy that won a few Major Worlds were scared to the Super are you? OK.... ;-)
Nov. 20, 2012
Mario
Men's 50
346 posts
Never played with Riverside, and I did play in the Super division with Starpath/LeAlco. I am never afraid of playing anybody,never have been never will be. I just don't know why you keep harping on changing a division that you don't play in? Is it perfect, no, but it is what it is and for the most part we Plus guys like it!!!!!!
Nov. 20, 2012
softball4b
Men's 60
706 posts
Tim,

This is Senior Softball and there is age banding for a reason. Any team can get hot and win for a few years. It depends on how the team was built. The super team you are referring to was the Mavericks, but even then the Mavericks had a run where they were equal to or less than a number of Major + teams. As evidenced by the trouncing we suffered from Kelly's Sports and Hendricks Sports Management.

Your inference is that if you win at 50 Major+, you want to remove the team from the 50's and put them in the 45's just because there is not a division higher than Major+. There is a real difference between a 45 year old player and one that is 54. As you age the difference becomes even more pronounced.

With respects to 50 MTC, until your team wins a world it is a moot point. The MTC organization has been successful at the Major+ division for year. At one point I believe the MTC 55's won 5 worlds. There was no one in Senior Softball complaining about their accomplishments we were all just trying to get better to beat them.

I have played with you and we won a few championships together. So there is no doubt in my mind that every time you take the field, you are doing everything you can to win the game. We certainly did not hesitate to play against Ritch's Superior in 91 and 1991-93 their win/loss record was 241-22.One of the 22 losses was to us.

So take a chill pill and play ball. If you play majors do the best you can and if your team should win a world then you will cross that bridge at that point. If you don't win or you don't play then no harm no foul.

Sorry to be verbose, but geez this gets old, wait that's me that is old.
Nov. 20, 2012
Webbie25
Men's 60
1931 posts
Darn, Mario-you play on OKI too. You watched us play in that sun game on field three Friday and then faced it yourself. I was the guy on Joe Browns with the blue knee brace. Wish I had remembered who played for who.

In 60 M+ last year Turn Two won Dalton-GSF 2nd, and Hollis was 5th, Vegas-Hollis won, GSF 2nd, and Turn 2 third. 60 M+ was fine. But even if someone had won both, that is the TARGET. That is who you want to beat and you improve to beat them, not bring them back to you by hamstringing them. I played against Steele's, Ritches, Howard's, Campbells and some of the big guys and my only thought was to get better to beat them, not break them up. I don't understand the thinking to tear down the best to be the best.
Nov. 20, 2012
Mario
Men's 50
346 posts
Webbie25, I missed winter worlds due to injury, so I did not get to expierience the sun field as you all did. But I will try and remember who you play for and say hey next time we all cross paths.
Nov. 21, 2012
sliplayer
Men's 60
70 posts
Dale
I will make sure I introduce Webbie to you at our next tourney we are all together.
SLi
Steven Imlay
Nov. 21, 2012
Tim Millette
465 posts
Mario, glad your not the guy that was posting on here about his always playing the top level when his team actually almost always played Major not Super.

Did you play for Hank when he dropped his Super berth to pick up Nevitt?

I talk to Hank a few times a year.... Almost always around the holiday season....Maybe he'll share some old time stories???

Anyway.... Back to the issue....

I am sure almost everyone would agree Plus ball is unhealthy as its currently being implemented.....

Either through perception or experience, it's obvious Major teams are not making the jump on a regular basis....

I am just giving concepts that might change that.
Nov. 21, 2012
Tim Millette
465 posts
Mike, my statements on this issue about dealing with Plus ball evolved after numerious people pushing to "just merge Plus with Major"....

As I see it.... Until you figure a way to deal with turning over the top of every Division your not going to have senior softball at its optimum.

The age groups allows for plus Champions to stay together so long as the Champion is MOVED UP to the younger Plus Division for two seasons.

This gives Plus Champions the same opportunity to stay together as the other Champions in senior ball get.... Stay together and be middle of the road in the next Division.... Add a few more great players and compete.... Or break up to meet the matrix required to stay in the Division you just won.... As I have said.... I also think plus Champions should be able to have 6 Plus Champion players on their roster and stay in the same age group Plus....

I guess what it comes down to Mike is.... I don't buy much of the "I want to play with all my friends" stuff when it comes to keeping a plus Champion together....

If SSUSA actually gave the Plus Champions the options I am recommending we could see if these Dynasty type teams are staying together because they want to compete together or if they just want to dominate a Division they already have dominated.

You cannot argue that bumping Champion teams from every other senior softball Division (Major, AAA, AA) is not a healthy thing to do.... So why stop acting in a healthy manner at Plus ball? Especially when there is somewhere else (younger Plus Program) to bump them to.
Nov. 21, 2012
softball4b
Men's 60
706 posts
Tim, My thoughts on classification:

For the purpose of this discussion. All-Tourney refers to those selection made select tourneys, based on the number of participates. RocknReno and World Master. I like the way SPA handles the Major Plus issue. Create an “impact” player list based on the all-tournament team at the season ending world tournaments. Teams will be limited to having X number of impact players on their team without having a class change. Impact classification follow a player for three years. If you were all-tourney in 2009 and received no more “all-tourney” awards in subsequent years, you would no longer count toward a team’s “impact” player list. If you received an “all-tourney” at selected events your status would be changed the following year. No “Impact” player may drop more than 1 classification. If you were selected at Major+ you could play Major within the same age group. No automatic tag placed on all of the players on a team that wins at any level.

I think we are saying the same thing. I do not advocate combining divisions as opposed to defining divisions.
Nov. 21, 2012
Mario
Men's 50
346 posts
Tim, what is your definition of a dynasty?
The 2 years that I have played Plus ball there has been 0 repeat winners in the Worlds with the exception of OKI winning the SPA Plus world 2 years in a row. But that was because there was none of the teams from out west at Dalton. I just don't get the dynasty talk when there have been no repeat winners in the Plus divisions for SSSUSA for the lst 2 years.


I was not with Hanks team when they picked up Nevitt. I played for his team for 2 years, 90 and 91.
Nov. 21, 2012
Mario
Men's 50
346 posts
Sliplayer, I will take you up on that. Looking forward to when we meet up again. Maybe at the TOC in February?
Nov. 21, 2012
Tim Millette
465 posts
Mario, In SSUSA the dynasty teams are the teams bumped up at the end of the season....

Unfortunately.... Those Dynasty move ups stop at the Plus level?

I don't understand why a concept that is helping every other SSUSA Division turn over the top in not being used in SSUSA Plus when there is such an easy answer to turning over the top and giving teams an incentive to give Plus ball a go....

All it will take is only six Plus Champions allowed on a Plus team...

If you want to have more then six Champion players on your roster your free to MOVE UP to the next youngest Plus level.

These are better options then the SSUSA Champions in every other Division are being given.

I am sure many of the bumped Champons from the lower levels would love to be able to return to the same Division they just were crowned Champions in with SIX players. Why does this scare the Plus teams so much? I don't understand? Your still being given a World Championship to compete in. It's just that you would have to reshape your team or move up to the younger guys!
Nov. 21, 2012
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Under this format, where would we move a 40's M+ team who wins a Worlds? Or would they get a pass?
Combining Major & M+ isnt much of an option, there are many Major teams that are just barily there. I dont care to hear about how they should work harder to get better, in most cases that just isnt going to happen no matter how hard they work. imo
However I do like tossing around ideas like this.
Nov. 21, 2012
Tim Millette
465 posts
Mike, I also like the player list approach.... The issue with such lists iOS it's difficult to make a valid list.

As an example of this.... Spa has a player from our team on the impact list that bats 7th or 8th for us....

He has never played on a Championship team, never played above D ball when we were young, never played a spa tourney.

He does play in an over 50 league (more like an over 60+ league)) with a guy that was associated with spa at one time.

That 50 league has one team that plays 50 ball... They have never won a game in a 50 major or plus tourney and are ranked below many 55 and 60 teams in our local NCSSA tourneys. I "assume" our player was added because he stands out in a very weak league night while playing with someone that asked for some names for their list.

Now..... If an association would also add 5-6 names from the team that wins their end of the season Worlds, a couple from the team that came in second and a few total from the remaining 3-5 finishers then maybe I could see a list being a little more balanced.
Nov. 21, 2012
Tim Millette
465 posts
Mario, In SSUSA the dynasty teams are the teams bumped up at the end of the season....

Unfortunately.... Those Dynasty move ups stop at the Plus level?

I don't understand why a concept that is helping every other SSUSA Division turn over the top in not being used in SSUSA Plus when there is such an easy answer to turning over the top and giving teams an incentive to give Plus ball a go....

All it will take is only six Plus Champions allowed on a Plus team...

If you want to have more then six Champion players on your roster your free to MOVE UP to the next youngest Plus level.

These are better options then the SSUSA Champions in every other Division are being given.

I am sure many of the bumped Champons from the lower levels would love to be able to return to the same Division they just were crowned Champions in with SIX players. Why does this scare the Plus teams so much? I don't understand? Your still being given a World Championship to compete in. It's just that you would have to reshape your team or move up to the younger guys!
Nov. 21, 2012
Tim Millette
465 posts
E4/E6..... I would suggest allowing to 40 Plus Division to be limited to 6 40 Plus Champoons on any 40 Plus roster...

Since the 40s Plus are at the top of the food chain they don't get to option to move up.... Unless they want to take their team to another association that's not age based.
Nov. 21, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4250 posts
You can only go up so far at any age, then you end up playing younger brackets.
I see it as not nearly enough are moved up fast enough.
You end up doing that or ratings difference anyway, in most events.
I know a teams that won* (*depending on how many teams were there) 3 this year and the year before. There are many like that but they hold them back because not enough teams were in their bracket. Given that I can see it but sometimes like thy do you adjust for the circumstance.
PHX, Vegas and Reno had some great numbers in brackets, also had a couple lacking.
Trouble there is, on occasion, too many of them, you end up playing teams you usually play anyway (at least in pool play) for what ever reason, who knows.
Cut the days and pool play out, therefore the cost to both sides by about a third....maybe more, given Fri & Sat are the most costly nights.
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