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Discussion: Patooning

Posted Discussion
Aug. 15, 2006
red from Wylie tx.
Men's 60
48 posts
Patooning
I just got around to reading the post on this subject, you guys must have a lot more player than we do. In the round robin we have about 13 players and we bat them all and rotate in the field. They go with the best in the DE. If you are like us most weekends some of our standout D players don't hit a lick and the eh guys hit lights out. It would be great to have great D players and eh guys who can pinch run but we have the normal I think, eh are the slow guys who can't play much D. But we are AA and I'm sure other divisions have differant issues.
Aug. 15, 2006
TexasTransplant
Men's 70
418 posts
I agree with you, Red. Unless you are a highly sponsored team where everyone's travel expenses are paid, you're going to have a very hard time fielding 20 players for complete platooning.

A couple of Designated Hitter positions (as opposed to Extra Hitter), would allow some flexibility to use a couple of defensive specialists. I don't know a lot of guys that want to just play the field, though.

You can already use pretty much as many EH's as you want.
Aug. 15, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Yo Tex,
I don't think platooning needs to go to all 10 to be importantly effective.
Any player any time, to any defensive position
provides the flexibility and ease for any team with any number on their roster to get more, fresher and even better
players into games without fear of disturbance or disruption from regular substitutions.

Red,
you don't need to have 20 players to have platooning.
It works just fine with 12 or 13 or 14, too.
Aug. 17, 2006
red from Wylie tx.
Men's 60
48 posts
I understand you don't need 20 but if you have only 14 players why not bat all of them. The normal problem in AA is that the guys who can't hit also can't field. I guess this is differant as you get to the upper divisions. But I think most thing are good that allows more players to play or players to play for a longer perior of time.
Aug. 18, 2006
armiho211
Men's 70
409 posts
guys, i will apologize ahead of time in case anybody takes it personal. in my view anybody can get better at hitting or running by working at it as much as possible. i realize a lot of players dont have the time or willing to make time to try to improve themselves. i see a lot of players in the lower classifications that are not in shape physically,and get winded quickly when they need to run the base paths. i for one like to hit the weight room, do jogging or running to keep my legs in shape. i am considerd a pretty fast runner for a 65 yr old guy, i dont have the power of a big slugger, but i will hit the ball 270- 280' pretty often. a team doesnt need 20 players, just get 13 or 14 players that are willing to do and keep doing the things that will keep them shape to be able to run consistantly and strong enough to get the ball out of the infield. my .02C. thanks
Aug. 19, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Guys,
I just met Fran and Stephanie from SSUSA and they're wonderful, gracious, bright and helpful people.
Fran and I were discussing Platooning and it seems there's a lot of people who think it has to be 2 complete teams,
one for offense and one for defense.
This ain't true.
It means up to 2 complete teams.
And you don't have to platoon if you don't want to.
Simply it means that you can play anyone, anytime from your roster on defense but adhere to the normal, usual rules about the line up on offense.
Think of it a limited offense and free defense.
Anyone, anytime can play defense.
That's the essence of platooning and it's not mandatory.
If you don't want to give way to someone else playing your spot, you don't have to.
Effortless implementation with a terrific and myriad upside.
Less exhaustion, more and better participation,
better team chemistry, longer playing careers,
less injury, more fan and player enjoyment.
Now who can argue with Einstein?
Aug. 19, 2006
Dbax
Men's 60
1264 posts
Fran, I hope SSUSA never considers this nonsense! I may be old school but his is not softball.
Aug. 20, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
DBax,
I have this feeling that you are stuck in your thinking
and chosing to come after me rather than try to figure out what in fact we're talking about.
Listen.
I'm make is easy for you.
Platooning is an idea and can only be fought with other ideas as in thinking, not just reacting
to what is said.
But, if you chose to want to try to come after me
for whatever reasoning or lack of reasonnig you may be experiencing don't use this site for it.
It's a place for positive and thoughtful communication.
Be a man and
Contact me directly at joerinaldi56@yahoo.com
and I will be MORE THAN HAPPY to accommodate
any of your wants and not so hiddent meanings.
What do you think, I mean, say?
Aug. 20, 2006
Dbax
Men's 60
1264 posts
Einstein (obvioulsy you gave this name to yourself or someone gave it to you poking fun)
How you can come to the conclusion that I was attacking you in my above post is beyond me! I was attacking the idea of platooning. I and many others have already argued our positions. You can already pretty much bat your entire lineup for those players that cannot play defense.
In addition, you would be removing part of the strategy of the game by platooning. If a team has a great defender or hitter, they must both play offense and defense. It is an advantage to a team that can field "all around" players.
This is the second time you have personally threatened me on this post.


Aug. 20, 2006
Hit the gap
Men's 60
143 posts
WOW ! Einstein has suddenly turned into "Frankeinstein". A thin skinned one at that. I guess if you don't like someones ideas anymore, you are "attacking them". Sounds suspiciously like the government.
Aug. 20, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Gap,

You know.
You got me.
Guys who would trample on someone's ideas
insensitively, or who bate others into argument
or in general are reactionary rather than intelligently responsive to important issues
really do bring out the worst in me.
Bax is a bater.
Read some of his posts.
It's that he has nothing to say but name call me and my ideas as nonsense.
I stand with/for everything I say and love to argue the merits of anything I find important to activities I enjoy like Platooning is to Senior Softball and if you don't take me seriously or chose to ridicule me or my ideas than
I have little to no respect for you or your opinions no matter who you are or what they are.
Again you or anyone else can contact me anytime
regarding anything you think deserves or needs my attention at joerinaldi56@yahoo.com.
Aug. 20, 2006
KillAbrew
Men's 60
55 posts
red from Wylie, I am new in N.E. Texas. (Greenville) Where are there senior leagues? Day or night?
Just moved from Ca.
Aug. 21, 2006
mad dog
Men's 60
3929 posts
brew,they have a nite league in irving,tx (trinity view park).its off I-30 at loop 12 and irving blvd its 2 or 3 exits north of I-30,we play on tues and thurs starting at 6:30 pm.there is also a day league and a few of the guys there can also help you with that.
Aug. 21, 2006
mad dog
Men's 60
3929 posts
didn't mean to hijack thread,but my .02 is if you play the field you hit.don't think its fair just to ask someone to not be able to play the part of the game that can be the most fun part.besides where is the thinking part going.ya just put a guy out there for D and not have to worry how they will hit b/c you don't let him hit.no stratagy(sp) there.most all assoc let you hit enough players to make up for it anyhow.
Aug. 21, 2006
TexasTransplant
Men's 70
418 posts
KillAbrew,
There is also a senior leage at Breckenridge Park in Richardson (Brand Road and Renner Road) that plays on Tuesday and Thursday nights. Usually 4 games starting at 6:30. Some one usually needs a player. Just show up and you should be able to make some contacts.

The Irving league is probably a little stronger, but you may find Richardson to be a little closer to Greenville.
Aug. 21, 2006
Lecak
Men's 55
1006 posts
For all who don't think platooning would help see the above post from CMG asking for players to go to Seattle due to injuries. Free flow of players on your roster, if they're on the roster do what you want with them, and as aside I would put my durability up against anyone my age. I hate sitting as much as the next guy but I need to live another day I think this would help.
Aug. 21, 2006
4x4
Men's 65
595 posts
Hey guys I think this entire thread has outlived it's shelf life after about three posts but one or two people just will not let it die out. Some seem to enjoy beating the same old argument in to the point of boredom ad nauseam. This is not either a new or marvelous invention, thought, or wonderful idea. Our associations have already watered down the rules most of grew up playing by to allow us to play the game that we love with very loose guidelines that do allow for rotation of players in order to keep people fresh and safe at the managers discretion. Invariably the best skilled defensive players end up in the best positions suited and the older divisions are allowed an extra defensive player. What else would we have - teams carrying more players for defense cutting down the number of quality teams available for competition?

This argument is beginning to sound like useless chatter.

Let's put this thing to sleep already.

Aug. 21, 2006
Dbax
Men's 60
1264 posts
Pete D
Very well said.
Aug. 21, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Pete,

I couldn't disagree with you more
on the value of platooning.
I think you are looking at it narrowly and minimally
missing the overall value to senior softball it would bring
to so many people in so many ways.

I appreciate everyone who rhas esponded thoughtfully, respectfully and intelligently to the conversation
as opposed to those who've called it nonsense and show difficulty in handling or perceiving it's value and importance.

Pete, when folks stop thinking, commenting, asking and weighing in
then it will be over.

Good ideas never die.
And Platooning for softball,
is a good one.




Aug. 21, 2006
bashbro1
Men's 60
266 posts
How about this Pete D.!

DEFINITION: “ad nauseam”

To a ridiculous excess; to a sickening degree. For example, I wish he'd drop the subject; We've all heard enough about the pros and cons of platooning of senior softball players to the point of "ad nauseam". The term "ad nauseam" is Latin for "to [the point of] nausea," has been used in English since the early 1600s and now rearing it's ugly head in our Senior Softball msg board threads!

Sincerely,
bashbro1 playing out Kent, WA- Venue for the SSUSA/SSWC Worlds @Russell Road Sept. 7-17.

Aug. 21, 2006
4x4
Men's 65
595 posts
Thanks bashbro1...
I didn't think I went back to the 1600's but apparently they must have had similar converations beaten to death back then too.
If we just stop replying in this thread it will die all by itself. Everybody has said enough - or what has needed to be said.
Aug. 22, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey guys and gals,
I say gals too because I got a terrific response to Platooning
in my email from a lady who coaches softball
and wanted to know more about it.

Listen, guys.
This is still America.
If you don't want to read or respond to something, anything, even something as boring as Bush should be impeached, tried and convicted for crimes
against humanity and that might help to bring us back from the edge of world destruction,
then, you don't have to, do you?

As long as folks like you, keep making comments and,
like Lecak,
really THINK about the positive possibilities of the terrific idea that platooning is for senior softball
then our community is being well served
by keeping this conversation alive.
I don't need or appreciate thought police or tired, old
put downs to anything that signals "change" in the status quo like I'm hearing from some of you.

This is an open forum for "Ideas", thoughts and comments.
Aug. 22, 2006
Ken
Men's 55
462 posts
Einstein,

This may be an open forum for ideas, thoughts, and comments, but it should be reserved for softball, not for political rhetoric. JMHO
Aug. 22, 2006
4x4
Men's 65
595 posts
The guy simply does not get it and attacks anyone citing them as unintellegent or narrow minded if they do not submit to aquiescence. This is not the theory of relativity replacing the ether theory einstein this is softball and just about everyone on this thread has reponded to you with patience and kindness that you yourself have not profferred toward others. Everyone that accepts your ideas are extremely sharp while everyone else with a different opinion incurs your thinly veiled wrath. This forum really isn't designed to be a soap box. An intellectual exchange - fine. But to give out beatings because someone else is of a different opinion? There are other places on the internet that are far more suitable.
Aug. 22, 2006
bashbro1
Men's 60
266 posts
Pete D. Yes I agree that verbal admonishments, upbraids and chiding those who dare offer a contra opine should not be part of this forum. Maybe it’s now time for another BASHBRO1 Word DEFINITION: “filibuster”

Def: filibuster
A legislator, or senior softball player, who gives long endless speeches in an effort to delay or obstruct legislation coming before the house of representatives for vote!
So maybe it’s time to take a VOTE of the members Senior Softball Msg Center to count those who are in favor and those who disfavor the 2-team platooning scheme to see what the real sentiment is amongst us players of the game.
Bashbro1 Playing out of Kent, WA Site for the up coming SSUSA Worlds!
Aug. 22, 2006
4x4
Men's 65
595 posts
Good input bashbro1 - the word diatribe also comes to mind in this particular situation.
Aug. 22, 2006
DMac
Men's 60
185 posts
Wow, I haven't seen this many cool words since graduate school. Pete, isn't using "submit to acquiescence" being redundant? By the way, this is America. If you don't like what Einstein is saying, don't read his posts.
Aug. 22, 2006
Ken
Men's 55
462 posts
I’m waiting for Don King to put in his two cents worth. This is right up his alley.
Aug. 22, 2006
Mango
Men's 50
89 posts
Hey Einstein,
Comment on platooning- it changes the nature of the game, as mentioned before in many reader responses. Eliminates strategy during games and changes how you build teams etc. Thats part of the game that I hold dear to me - the strategy involved in baseball/softball. I believe many others feel the same way- they like it the way it is. Part of the beauty of the game is the second guessing(should I have gone with a 5 man? Witha 4 run lead do I use my bench and put in a defensive replacement? etc. )Also heres a question- how do you think platooning would effect the number of teams participating in Senior Softball? There are already so few teams at each division. Wouldn't platooning reduce the number as teams would have bigger squads?
Mango
Aug. 22, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Mango,

Immediately, it might cause some movement.
But overall, more players who aren't playing now
will want and be able to play because they'll be more opportunities
to get them in the games.
No one, Mango, likes the bench.
Platooning will get everyone into a game without taking away from he line up
or having to hit 15 guys.

And as far as strategy goes
platooning just opens up a whole new set of dyamics regarding strategy.
Like who gets rested and when and making sure key players don't get too cold on the bench.

Mango, fundamentally I'm not trying to drive anything down anyone's throat.
I'm just not going to be shut up or intimidated by those who can't or won't see the forest for the trees.
Ideas, llike platooning are good for thought and exercise at the very least and should be encouraged not discouraged.

I'm for people with interesting, new and provocative ideas.
Why not try to make things better if we can?



Aug. 22, 2006
Tony C
2 posts
Mr Einstein;

I do agree with your positions on our (non) Gov...however,

I do not think platooning is a good thing for us senior softballers.

I have been playing senior for many years, and I am always against something that might keep me on the bench during a game..

Tony C
Aug. 23, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Tony,
Good email.
Honest and respectful.
If you have 14 or 15 players and you don't routinely get
the lower guys in games,
they start to become dead weight to vital team chemistry
that is "all for one and one for all."
They tend to become ego fodder for the starters to use
to prop themselves up when they don't do or feel well.
To me, this is bad news as it destroys true team chemistry
and helps lesser or struggling players stay unproductive
and under achieve.
Is it worth not fielding for a game or an inning or 2 to get one of your buddies in the line up and feeling good about himself and staying warm in case you need him late
in a tourrnament or game?
Aug. 24, 2006
bashbro1
Men's 60
266 posts
Since I would very much hate to see the ongoing platooning diatribe thread shrivel up and die on the vine; here is a short recap of the main points made for Platooning found from previous threads (not all inclusive).

Maybe others can build or add the cons for platooning and then we can place then in a Benjamin Franklin pros & cons T-Bar for making a decision on whether to move forward and implement platooning or just for-get-a-bout-it!

Editor's note: When Ben Franklin had a major decision to make on an important issue, he would examine the situation and then make a list of all the factors favoring and disfavoring the issue. Then based on all the information on his list, he would make his decision based on a weighted average for each item driving out a % say 80%pro and 20% con making his decision for him.

--------------------------------------------------------
Subject The Pros of: “The essence of platooning and remember...it's not mandatory”
• You can field whomever you want on Defense
• Bat whomever you want on Offense
• They could be the same # of guys plus potentially 10 or more additional guys
• Will increase revenue and participation for SSUSA
• Raises the caliber of play
• Prevents injuries
• Prolong player careers
• Creates more player fun and enjoyment
• Helps lesser or struggling players stay unproductive and under achievers
• Is it worth not fielding for a game or an inning or 2 to get one of your buddies in the line up
• Staying warm in case you need him late in a game
• More players who aren't playing can now play
• Platooning will get everyone into a game
• Doesn’t take away from he line up from having to hit 15 guys.
• Platooning just opens up a whole new set of dynamics regarding strategy
• Players get more rest
• Key players don't get too cold on the bench.
• Free defensive substitution s what platooning allows
• It means up to 2 complete teams.
• You don't have to platoon if you don't want to.
• You can play anyone, anytime from your roster on defense
• Think of it a limited offense and free defense
• Anyone, anytime can play defense.
• If you don't want to give way to someone else playing your spot, you don't have to
• Effortless seamless implementation with a terrific and myriad upside
• Less exhaustion, more and better participation
• Better team chemistry, longer playing careers
• Less injury, more fan and player enjoyment

bashbro1 Kent, WA
Aug. 24, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Thanks Bash,
You're a monster with a pen.
And you did a lot of good work.
Only a couple of the points are misstated to the point that they are false.
For example,
"Helps lesser or struggling players stay unproductive and under achievers"
It actually helps lesser players become productive and achieve in terms of positive expectations.
But don't think I'm not grateful.
You did a lot of work and thanks.
I'm up for a vote, up or down.
Why don't those who care
weigh in whether they favor platooning or
"free defensive substition" as some people seem to understand it better and then we can take up the merits of the argument with Ridge and Terry and Gary T et al.
What do you say?
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