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Discussion: AAA Home Run Outs

Posted Discussion
Dec. 8, 2012
ChiPrimeMarty
Men's 55
65 posts
AAA Home Run Outs
I'm a 55AAA player, and I don't like any of the rule changes.

The one rule I really wanted is the 1-1 pitch count, which all my park district leagues have used for decades. This is slowpitch softball, tilted heavily towards hitting (especially with senior bats). The 0-0 count gives the hitter more cushion to avoid the 2-strike pitch and wait on that fat one over the middle. Standing around waiting for the batter to swing is the least intersting part of action on the field, and is a factor in games shortened to fewer innings.

70 foot bases ... don't we run far enough playing 5+ games in a weekend? This rule doesn't particularly bother me; I'm OK with 70' bases if it's the standard at fields for all age groups, but what's driving this change for seniors ... has the ratio of foot speed to arm strength changed, or are longer bases intended to put infielders a little further out of harm's way from senior bats?

Excess AAA home runs as outs is the rule change that prompted me to start this thread (the other thread had gotten very long). Senior bats enable me to hit an occasional home run, but I've always been opposed -- partly because of increased risk of injury to players with slower reflexes; partly because it's very costly replacing these very breakable bats; and because I think these juiced bats are detrimental to our sport, tilting the balance even more to the offense.

But that's a different debate. I accept that U2's, Reebok Legends, et al are here to stay in the senior game (for the forseeable future). For the majority of players, the pleasure of hitting lasers and monster shots outweighs the other concerns.

Which brings me to the point. Why penalize hitters for usng the approved equipment as intended? AAA teams are hitting more than 3 homers per game because this capability is very common for softball players in their 50's. A typical AAA lineup of 12 hitters will have 4 who can put it out with regularity and 4 more with enough power to do it occasionally. Those 8 players combined will have about 30 at-bats per game, but they can't cut loose 9 out of 10 times. Yeah, I know, you can swing as hard as you want as long as you don't elevate that line drive, but something's wrong when you have to focus on not hitting the ball too far.

Supposedly, what's wrong is that AAA teams hitting in excess of 3 per game really should be in the Major division. But if so many AAA teams hit dingers for walks in 2012, maybe that's a measure of power with juiced bats at the AAA level rather than a measure of how many teams in AAA should really be Major. A normally strong healthy softball player in his 50's can hit the ball 300+ with a U2 but that doesn't necessarily make him a major player, and half a dozen of these players don't automatically make a team competitive at the major level. Defense and pitching still are major factors in winning games, and a team with a high on base percentage & good defense will often beat a team with a handful of sluggers. The biggest difference between AAA & Major is usually consistency throughout the lineup, with fewer marginal players.

The number of home runs per game should not be the primary guideline for assessing the competetive level of a team. SSUSA already has other more telling criteria for moving a team up to the next level -- the average margin of victory in runs per game (a measure of both offense & defense) and winning national tournaments in a highly competitive field.

Home run outs are apparently intended to frustrate strong hitters to the extent they'll want their team to move up to Major, but being consistently overmatched at tournaments is even less fun. By all means let's find the right competitive balance, but home run outs in my opinion is not the way to do it. If a team consistently wins games by hitting home run walks there is already a system for moving them up -- average margin of victory and winning national tournaments.
Dec. 8, 2012
Jawood
Men's 50
794 posts
They wanted to make the top AAA teams move up to Major. The only trouble is they didn't do anything to make the top Major teams move up to Major+. Because of that, most AAA teams will stay where they are if not forced up.

The 3 HR's and outs is too restricted for AAA. Something like 6 HR's and outs would have been more reasonable.
Dec. 9, 2012
leftyfalcon
Men's 65
158 posts
Looks like I'll be a tired puppy running the bases next year.
I don't think they would go with the 6 hr's and it would be great if they would go to 3hrs and a walk after 3.
Dec. 9, 2012
chico senior
Men's 60
26 posts
I do not agree with what ChiprimeMarty on one point. If a AAA team is made up of 4 guys who regularly hit home runs and 4 others who hit them occasionally, in my mind this is a Major team. The biggest difference between all 4 divisions is power numbers. I feel there is not a major difference between the top 3 divisions concerning defensive ability. If a team is constanly hitting more home runs then the limit allowed in their division and they are winning the majority of their games at that level then they ought to move up. To me at the AAA level, a home run should be a big deal - not something that 2/3 of your roster can do.
Dec. 9, 2012
wagon487
Men's 50
522 posts
Jarwood, really, you want 6 HR's for AAA? If you hit six you need to play major, at least. ChiPrimeMarty, if you have 4 who can put it out with regularity and 4 more with enough power to do it occasionally, you should be playing major, at least. Learn to hit the other way, hit the gaps, learn to aim, that's what bp is for!
Dec. 9, 2012
Duke
Men's 60
709 posts
The following is just my opinions, so no need to jump all over me. To briefly comment, I agree with wagon and chico, that this type of AAA team is a Major team. What I really want to talk about is in the next several paragraphs.

Runs per inning and home run limits are made for each division caused by several poisons, one of which is the Mike Ultra II. I like the current bat/ball combo. The current bat/ball combo is not going to change, and the fences are not going to be moved back. Mostly do to costs, and we seniors do not want to play in larger outfields at our age with lazers being hit off of super bats. The only solution on the fences, would be to add 15 feet to the height, but will probably not happen either. This method would limit many of the home runs, and avoid homeruns over the limit being outs.

Here is where I may get shot down by the Major Plus players/teams. AA and AAA divisions seem to have plenty of teams to play and happy with things as they are. Major Plus teams would love to have more teams to play too, especially in the smaller tournaments. This has been discussed for the past 12 years of playing senior softball with absolutely not many results or changes. Major Plus teams in smaller tournaments are still playing against Major teams giving them 5 runs or an extra fielder. Only a crazy Major team would take an extra fielder over the 5 runs. You cannot defend a ball hit over the fence. Obviously, many Major teams can hit many home runs, but not at the rate of the stocked Major Plus teams. Let me get to my humble solution here. Major teams do not have that many Major teams to play in the smaller tournaments either, but more than the Major Plus teams. I want to play softball, not home run derby. Home runs are part of the game, but not at the rate they are happening at our old age now. My humble opinion for a solution to possibly combining Major and Major Plus teams would be unlimited runs per inning and play with a 2 up home run rule and an out not a walk. In combining Major/Major Plus divisions, I would not bargain or budge from these suggested home run rules that I have mentioned.

What do I believe will happen now. Well, a lot of critcism, opinions, and other solutions and that I am nuts. Therefore, 10 years from now, Major Plus teams will be in the same situation that they are in now, and have been for several decades, not many teams to play, and playing the same teams day in and day out. BTW, I play on a Major team. I truly believe that most Major teams would be able to compete on an even playing field with Major Plus teams with these rules implemented. I think the poison of the modern bats has poisoned our thinking of the game of softball. I do enjoy watching guys hit those 400 foot shots on occasion, but not 12 times in one game. Rather than pitching BP to a team that can hit more than a dozen home runs per game, I would be happy to let the other team pitch to themselves, so I could sit in the dugout and eat lunch. LOL! Not to make light of this ongoing issue guys, but that is how it feels from many of the Major teams having to play against this situation.

Lastly, consider the unlimited arc rule for pitchers, and maybe just in the Major Plus/Major divisions. Now gentlemen, give it your best shot. LOL! Again, just my humble opinions.

Have a Merry Christmas and a safe and Happy New Year gentlemen!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Andy Smith,
60 Major
Dec. 9, 2012
ChiPrimeMarty
Men's 55
65 posts
"Learn to hit the other way, hit the gaps, learn to aim"

And that's exactly what AAA teams with power do when home runs are outs. They hit fewer over-the-fence shots in 2011 than 2012 when excess homers were walks -- but they still had just as many players with the power to do it.

So even though a AAA team has the capability to hit 6+ homers per game, they stay at AAA because they're not hitting the ball over the fence due to a restrictive rule. Seems to me the rule is hiding power-hitting AAA teams rather than exposing them and forcing them up to major.

Unless, of course, they're not regularly winning games by large margins and they're not winning big tournaments attended by top AAA competition. Shouldn't those criteria be the real measure of a team's competitive level?

If a AAA team has several power hitters but several marginal players as well and they're not all that good defensively, they're not going to dominate other AAA teams regardless of the home run rule. But I'm hearing arguments that they should be a Major team solely on the basis of number of homers per game.

I'm not describing my team; Im talking about 50 & 55 AAA in general. Rarely in 2012 did my team hit a home run walk. Personally I rarely hit a ball over the fence, so it's no fun whatsoever for a player with average power when that rare dinger is an out. I don't like home runs being outs, period. (kinda obvious, eh?)

Get rid of the juiced bats, or let the players swing away and let their team's win/loss record sort out AAA from Major. If home run power and home run walks win games & national tournaments, those teams will move up.

If there are too few teams in the M & M+ divisions, then figure out a way to achieve optimal competitve balance by moving the top M teams to M+ and the top AAA teams to M. Restructure if necessary.

But the proliferation of AAA home run walks in 2012 didn't expose AAA teams that should be Major under the current structure as much as it exposed how ridiculous these bats are.
Dec. 9, 2012
crusher
Men's 70
389 posts
jmo - agree that 3 hr then out for AAA is a good rule.

If my team had 4 hr hitters and 4 that can hit 1 most games then my team is definitely a major ball club. jmo....

Now on the lighter side a solution to M+ having no one to play you could combine the M and M+ and make them use wood bats. Then you could have unlimited HR's and a 7 run per inning limit. This is about the only way I can see to actually combine the 2 groups.

I have played against legit M and M+ and always got beat by the legit guys because every player could hit, field, throw and run very good.

merry christmas to all

C
Dec. 9, 2012
LP
282 posts
SSUSA changed the home run rule by gauging vegas, SSUSA changed the ball used in vegas from the trump stote that has been used for a long time,to the evil rock ball which is a hotter ball. plus the fences at the field of dreams complex is under 300 feet,add this together it give a false reading on how teams hit home runs from the year before
Dec. 9, 2012
JBTexas
Men's 60
261 posts
LP, hate to disagree but if you check the Eastern and western nationals and Rock N reno results you would see
plenty of games over the 3 home run rule in all three.
Dec. 9, 2012
chico senior
Men's 60
26 posts
I agree that after the HR limit has been reached that hitters will have to hit line drives that might go up the middle. However, that still doesn't address if a team is AAA or Major. The way it be presented in the original post you feel that hitting 6, 7, or more home runs in a AAA game is acceptable. I don' feel the majority of the AAA teams agree with you. Teams that are generating the majority of their offense via the long ball have no place in AAA. I totally agree with SSUSA that any home run after 3 in the AAA division should be an out.
Dec. 9, 2012
GI
Men's 60
164 posts
I will have to check with coach on this one but I do not remember a tournament played this year where our team CJS express in 55 AAA hit over 3 homeruns in a game. Most of the time we might get one home run. Maybe that is why we did not win a Senior softball event this pastyear. I agree big time 3 homeruns than all after that should be an out. Cut down on home runs and maybe figure out 1-1 count will speed up games and than maybe we can all enjoy the game at this ripe old age. Kind of like wood bats with decent balls and bats would be alot cheaper. A guy can dream right? HA. Bless all of you for your thoughts. To be honest I just enjoy still being able to play and see you guys on the field. Merry Christmas and God bless senior softball.
Dec. 10, 2012
Webbie25
Men's 60
1974 posts
After playing AAA from 2006-2011 when the HR limit was 3 and then an out, I know how many times I had to hit down to preserve the HR's for when we needed them. That first inning HR was almost always an accident. It took me several tournaments last year at M+ to quit apologizing for hitting a solo in the first inning and the team got a good chuckle over that. Three and an out is, to me, the only way to go. If you can't keep it in the park, maybe you shouldn't be playing AAA.
Merry Christmas, Gary, and all players!
Dec. 10, 2012
southernson
259 posts
Yesterday lost to a good AAA team 34-24, and they hit 11 out. They had a Major type day, but they are like us, a consistent AAA team that blows up once in a while.

Not a Major team that consistently hits with power, then has an off AAA day.

There's a big difference IMO. 3 and out is nuts....

Solve the problem in the division where there was a problem....and it wasn't AAA.
Dec. 10, 2012
Robo2
222 posts
I do not play AAA but my opinion is this and is very simple. Allow unlimited HRs in every class. It will make games quicker by allowing 5 runs to be scored quicker and show separation of the power teams easier. One would not have to wait until the end of the year to bump a team up to the next level. By having limits if allows the better teams in each division to be hidden.

It seems that many complaints on the board are that certain teams should be at the next level. Just my opinion.
Dec. 10, 2012
chico senior
Men's 60
26 posts
Southernson - I hope you're kidding! A team hits 11 home runs against you and you think it was a fluke and they are still a AAA team! Give me a break. The team you are describing is a perfect example of a team that should be playing at the Major level. These are the types of teams that should be moved up to balance out numbers in the different divisions.
Dec. 10, 2012
Enviro-Vac
Men's 60
394 posts
SSUSA got it right. Teams that hit 3+ should be outs. If you can't keep it in the yard switch to a 9 iron. Also, there is never an excuse to hit it up the middle as there are lots of gaps to aim for. Middle shots happen by accident.
Dec. 10, 2012
softball4b
Men's 60
738 posts
Allan55 - Use the Trump ball instead of the Rock. I played with the ball in Reno in 95+ degree heat and it was still leaving the park. Response: It was Reno, any ball will fly. I agree the Trump is better than it was 3 years ago, but the "rock" stays consistent throughout the game and tourney.

General - Divisions are designed to try and create levels of like, kind and quality of play. For the lack of a better term, the HR and run differential is the measuring stick for each level. If a team consistently exceeds the expectations of play within that group then they should participate at a level different than their current level, until they reach the highest plateau.
I mostly agree with Webbie, but it is not the errant or occasional HR than creates issues at AAA. It is the team that consistently exceeds the acceptable norm that creates controversy. You can argue what that level should be, but until someone provides a better or different statistical analysis, I tend to side with the governing body, whichever that governing body may be.
HRs at the AA and AAA level has more of an impact on a game than at the Major and Major+ level. The compromise would be to play three and one up or one up from the start.

I have played on Major+ teams that played AAA teams and lost. We lost because the AAA out hit us and as a year we could not adjust. Therefore, if a super strong (should be major) AAA team played one up, they would not have a significant advantage from a run production capability, utilizing the Earl Weaver strategy of a 3 run homer. Same when Major plays Major+, once you hit the Max then one up. Giving up runs, when you are limited to the number of runs you can score is a double whammy.

Kind of like when my Ex asked for a divorce and then informed me she was getting a breast enhancement. At least I did not have to pay for it. Oh wait, I paid for it for years afterward. You get my point.
Dec. 10, 2012
leftyodoul
Men's 60
99 posts
Jimmy (Enviro Vac) is right. AAA should be 3 Home Runs with DBO's after that. There is no need to intentionally hit middle. For those of you who play AAA and are worried about hitting unintentional Home Runs, go find yourself an ASA bat that has the same swing feel as your Senior bat and use it when you need to keep the ball in the park. That way, you can keep your same swing and not have to back off.
Dec. 10, 2012
big cat7
Men's 50
95 posts
Doesnt anyone remember softball when it was in its best years, that was unlimited homers and play in whatever class you chose to play in, if you were to good for that class you got bumped up. i played in many tournaments where major and aa teams played class b and c teams and the b and c teams never cried about it.Then came the home run rules and in my opinion thats when things stared going down hill the bats getting juiced up and so forth.And i know bats were juiced back in the good old days to but who cared you hit em or you didnt.Now senior ball is going the same way everyone is crying about home runs,why do players want to penalize people that work hard on their game and can still hit them out.Maybe there are no major teams in their area or they dont want to travel all the time just to play.Home runs should never be outs after the limit is reached.Noone should be penalized for still being able to hit
Dec. 10, 2012
southernson
259 posts
Chico,
Not kidding here at all, we're not in BFE Nowhere USA, we're in Florida. They usually average 3-4 HRs....AND YOU CAN'T COMPETE day in and day out at a Major level with 3-4 HRs. We've taken the root problem which is the Major/Major Plus arena and tried to push it with a solution that has the wrong target of AAA. Getting AAA teams to move to Major will not have the Domino effect of having enough Major teams move to Major Plus to help that divisions problems. The problem isn't in AAA, and it's impractical to try and create a solution there.

I was at a tournament this weekend, and it was all the buzz in the AAA teams that were playing. It may have the unintended effect of shifting some tournament options to be SPA instead.

Again, just my opinion.
Dec. 10, 2012
softball4b
Men's 60
738 posts
SPA rule.

AAA - Five (5) run limit per team per inning,
Unlimited in last declared inning, and all extra innings) Three (3) homeruns, One-up rule NOT in effect
Additional home run is an out, Base runner(s) do not advance.

I do not see SPA rules to be an advantage.
Dec. 10, 2012
chico senior
Men's 60
26 posts
It is SSUSA's policy to protect the lower division. Again, in my mind if a AAA team usually hits 3-4 HR's per game but can hit double digit homers, they should be in the higher division. The AAA division for the most part is built around teams that get a lot of base hits, score near 20 runs per game, and play good defense. Again, SSUSA is trying to figure out how to move more teams up to the Major and Major Plus levels and it is my opinion the power numbers are the determining factor. I have played since 2000 and have plaed both AAA and Major. I have no problem with a team beating our team with 40 hits and 2 home runs but it bothers me when we get beat by team that get 15 hits of which 10 were home runs and try to claim they are a AAA team. I'm also not from BFE, rather from Northern California and play both NCSSA and SSUSA. We don't get to see the Florida teams very often so the feelings between the 2 coasts might vary greatly.
Dec. 10, 2012
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
The ball & bat made me do it! Does anyone else see the direction this is going in? If the equipment is the deciding factor in how far or quickly ball travel or approach players, why is it so hard to find an answer to all of this? If your one of those players who wants to feel empowered because of todayís equipment, so be it. But you can't have it both ways. I think outs after the limits have been reached is the only way to go. Thatís why they are called limits. Big cat7 is dead on with his comments. The limits have allowed someone to sit on their behind and look at game stats (Homeruns, run diff, etc) and decide what division we should be in. Back year ago, the directors were the ones running tourneys and could witness the games and decide where teams belonged. Our team is built with friendship, and the AAA level in mind.
Dec. 10, 2012
big cat7
Men's 50
95 posts
what is the difference if a team scores thirty runs with forty hits or scores thirty by hitting fifteen homers? the name of the game is to score more runs than the other team who cares how its done.if i build my team around power and you build yours with ten guys that base hit the heck out of the ball dont you think that on some days conditions will help either team. some days the wind could be blowing in and the base hitting team will win some days blowing out for the power team.thats the idea of sports you take your chances and just play your game .i loved the old days and the pitching idea of here it is im serving it up to you get yours because we are going to get ours
Dec. 10, 2012
mad dog
Men's 60
3932 posts
ok,guys hr limits have been in place since the mid 80's,so where are/were these unlimited hrs being hit....also how do you defense a ball hit over the fence..oh you can't,that is the difference BC7.....


AAA = 3 hrs is great,with outs for extra's....i consider myself a marginal power hitter,and haven't hit a dead ball out in many years,i also haven't lit up any pitchers b/c of running out of hrs,maybe a 3rd baseman,as i try to pull it(as long as the pitch allows)....

so as i see it ssusa has got this right,now we just need the 1-1 count to come to us....ASA,USSSA both have it in kids ball,why not us........
Dec. 10, 2012
big cat7
Men's 50
95 posts
I played on a class a team in the mid 80's and there were no limits we played major teams class b teams c teams and it was all you could hit and no one ever cried about it when they went to limits it first was a limit on hitters you could have so many home run hitters and then they were outs if anyone else hit them.3 homers are fine but it should be walks after not outs.in 1986 and 87 i played on a class a church team we played in every usssa tournament that we could , we played against steeles , howards, maroadi tranfer,smythe and got beat but it was fun one of the highlites of my career that i will always remember was playing bruce meades team ken michaels and i had hit three outand the fourth time they walked me intentionally. that doesnt sound like much but for a major team to walk a little church player was a big deal to me, that was when softball was fun you knew going in who was there and you either chose to play with them or you didnt
Dec. 10, 2012
southernson
259 posts
Chico,
You are in a hot area as well, California, I agree. You had some good points in your last email, duly noted.

It's not an easy problem for SSUSA, and I respect that. I just think the 3 HRs is way to low.

But the solution is not having a AAA team move to major, get their a$$ handed to them for 3 years until the pick up enough Major Players to compete. That's an expensive solution...

I'm done on this one, swimming against the tide...thanks.

Dec. 10, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
998 posts
you start dumming down the balls and you will have an epidemic of shaved senior bats... Keep the balls where they are at!
Dec. 10, 2012
mad dog
Men's 60
3932 posts
and there ya go bc7 ....you played in open tourney's not class specific....for usssa it was...0 for D;1 hr hitter for C;3 hr hitters for B;A was 5 or 7 hr hitters(to old to remember them)....now if senior ball would do that,i would be ok with ....AA get 1 hr hitter;AAA get 2 hr hitter;M get 5 hr hitters;M+ get 7 hr hitters.....

now ASA was the same numbers,but it was total hrs,not hitters.. higher up in the divisions(A-AA,SUPER'S)they allowed quite few out....
Dec. 10, 2012
Jawood
Men's 50
794 posts
I think everyone could have lived with the new HR rule at AAA if they would have just made it 3 and ONE UP. That way, if teams want to go HR for HR at the AAA level, they could, but if a AAA team was no power was up against another AAA team that could hit well above the limit, they could keep it close. One-up is fair for everybody!
Dec. 11, 2012
southernson
259 posts
Jawood, thanks for some common sense, this is an improved approach>> "One-up is fair for everybody!".

It just seems to me there is a mathematical framework for measuring teams that could be applied, as using HR's for that measurement is not valid. As someone alluded previously, 30 runs is 30 runs no matter how many HRs.

It's easier to use the HRs versus recording data for historical reference. And therein lies the rub...





Dec. 11, 2012
titanhd
Men's 50
329 posts
Homeruns distance ,limits and the number of homeruns seems to be what everyones uses as the criteria for where a team should be rated.
What if divisions were eliminiated throw all the teams together by age group and have 4 and 1 up homeruns for every age group . Then what becomes the criteria?
Dec. 11, 2012
crusher
Men's 70
389 posts
I am on the 3 hr then out for AAA side.

30 runs is 30 runs. It makes a difference how you get them.
If you get 10 or 15 or whatever via the HomeRun you have a M+ team. If a team is AAA the 3 and out gives the defense a chance to get outs verses a M or M+ team beating the crap out of a AAA team using HR's not giving the defense a chance to get an out.

That gentlemen is the reason for 3 and OUT.

JMO (but it is a fair opinion lol)

C
Dec. 11, 2012
mad dog
Men's 60
3932 posts
crusher,just like i said above,there is no defense when the ball goes over the fence,also that team hitting them out,puts out way less effort on the base paths not having to run as much.....keep AAA hrs over the limit OUTS......
Dec. 11, 2012
chico senior
Men's 60
26 posts
Crusher - I agree with you. If most of your runs are being generated via the HR you should be playing Major or Major Plus. I also agrre that the 3 HR and then an out rule gives you a chance aginst the higher rated teams. Way to go SSUSA!
Dec. 11, 2012
big cat7
Men's 50
95 posts
SO BASICALLY PENALIZE A GUY THAT MAY WORK ON IS GAME YEAR ROUND AND CAN STILL HIT BUT CANT TRAVEL OR THERE ARE NO MAJOR TEAMS IN HIS AREA SO HE PLAYS ON A LOCAL AAA TEAM.SORRY EVERYONE HAS THEIR OPINION ON THIS AND EVERYONE HAS A VALID POINT.MY OPINION IS THAT NO PLAYER SHOULD BE PENALIZED FOR WORKING ON HIS GAME AND BEING ABLE TO HIT.I WOULD RATHER SEE A BIG GUY CRANKING IT THEN WATCHING HIM FALL ON HIS BUTT TRYING TO HIT BACKSIDE JUST BECAUSE HIS TEAM HIT A WHOPPING THREE HOME RUNS.
Dec. 11, 2012
Fabe
Men's 50
218 posts
Good opinions and ideas...yet HRs did not play a big role in my team winning the 50s AAA. The 70' bases had a bigger effect, for the good. We enjoyed playing by the current Senior rules. Vegas Worlds was a good measuring stick, I think we should keep those rules that was used. Aloha, Fabe
Dec. 11, 2012
o.g.
7 posts
if you work all year on yor gameyou should be able to hit a base hit when home run are gone make your home run count quit hitting solos
Dec. 11, 2012
the wood
1079 posts
Big Cat:
I gotta call BS on your last post. SSUSA isn't punishing anyone... they're just changing the HR rules in AAA.
I know of guy that is in the USSSA HOF and, a few years ago, he played a lot of 40/45 ASA/USSSA events that had 3 HRs and then DBOs.
In BP he ALWAYS hit an entire bucket of balls 'back side' in case he batted when it wasn't a good time to hit a HR. He became so profiicent at it that he used his back side swing in clutch situations, too.
He plays today in the 50 M+ division and uses that swing whenever he feels that he needs to do it. He happens to be one of the best senior player out there, if not the best.
It isn't like the sky is falling. We played with DBOs in M+ for several years and we (my team) didn't whine about it. We just adapted to it.
Bob Woodroof
Dec. 11, 2012
crusher
Men's 70
389 posts
Hey BigCat Seven -
You are shouting.....

I workout year around... WHy I like it... Helps golf and especially Sometimes Hitting A ball out of the park.

I see and know guys on other teams that hit a ball out quite often and they also hit line drives depending on the situtation. Could they be M or M+ players. Well May Be...

Nothing wrong with one guy getting to play on a local team and hitting a ball out now and then. Now, if your team has 4 or 5 guys that hit the ball out, then you are M or M+.

What happens to this local guy, hey (and I) gets walked quite a few times. That is life and Senior Softball.

There is a M+ 70 team in Texas that has no one to play, so for 2013 (dam that sounds strange 2013) I hear they have disbanded. Hopefully those guys can find a place to play.

See you down the road.

C
Dec. 12, 2012
mad dog
Men's 60
3932 posts
wood,that is perfect....most of these guys think bp is nothing but a hr derby and forget about real hitting.....learn to hit right and hr limits will not be a problem.......
Dec. 12, 2012
the wood
1079 posts
Bob, we learned to do this years ago regardless of whether we had HR limits or not. I could list all of the reasons why but you already know them. The HR limit merely adds more reason...
Basketball players balked at the 3 second rule 50+ years ago but there is still a place for big men.
BW
Dec. 12, 2012
softball4b
Men's 60
738 posts
IMO...1up is the ultimate equalizer. Power teams can't use their power at will and base hit clubs will continue to score effectively.

Big Cat7, I don't think anyone wants to penalize you personally, but I do think the governing body wants to limit the number of your type of player, playing on a specific team.

I believe you have players that can hit for power and then you have players that have occasional power. From an offensive stand point, if a AAA team builds a team with 2 maybe 3 guys with legit power plus bat control and if placed effectively throughout the line up, you have a good chance of maximizing your run potential every inning. Conversely I believe 3HR and outs gives the advantage to the club with players who only have occasional power.

Therefore
2-3 Big Cats AAA
3-4 Big Cats Major
5+ Big Cats Major+
Dec. 12, 2012
big cat7
Men's 50
95 posts
I like that softball4b having hitters instead of homers would definately be a better way to go.Guys that could hit them could still do so and base hitters could still do their thing.And they wouldnt be penalizing my kind of player im a base hitter with little power but i dont agree with home run rules.I think tournaments should be a two way format one side unlimited homers and the other no homers and unlimited arc ,i wonder which would have the most teams week in and week out
Dec. 12, 2012
softball4b
Men's 60
738 posts
I was not suggesting designating HR hitters as USSSA did in the 90's, but was rather pointing out types of players that would best serve a team's chances within a specific division. If you designated HR hitters it would make it easier to defense. The point I was trying to make is, based under the current rules, it does not make sense to have power hitters beyond the levels I suggested.

Again, IMO, legit HR hitters always have the capability to hit a dinger in most every environment, but not always capable of doing it.

Legit HR hitter ratios - not scientific just my opinion

50 - 1 every 3.00 ab
55 - 1 every 4.25 ab
60 - 1 every 5.25 ab
Dec. 13, 2012
Webbie25
Men's 60
1974 posts
BigCat-I remember those days of designating HR hitters. You end up getting walked a lot because they learn to pitch around you.
I am constantly amazed that a lot of guys think it is just easy to step up and hit it out any time you want to. If it was, a person would never make an out because I don't think anybody walks up to bat and thinks "Well, I think will make an out this time up just to make them feel good". It took a tremendous amount of practice all of my life to learn how to hit consistently and how to hit with power. A lot of guys can do one or the other, but not both.
Mike-I like your stats there.
Dec. 13, 2012
Jawood
Men's 50
794 posts
Looks like the brass should re-consider the AAA HR rule and add 1-up to the 3 HR's. In fact, just add 1-up to all the levels, except probably AA.

Major+ - 9, 1-up, walks
Major - 6, 1-up, walks
AAA - 3, 1-up, outs
AA - 1, outs
Dec. 13, 2012
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
No one ups for anyone. Why continue to try and circumvent or create rules to make a small group happy? It's simple, play by the rules set forth or move up to the division you belong in. If you want one up, move up! It's about the capability to hit 3 in the AAA division, not limit teams to 3. Change your bat or ball if your having issues keep it in the yard.
Dec. 13, 2012
chico senior
Men's 60
26 posts
Pricer - Great comments! i agree 100 percent.
Dec. 13, 2012
big cat7
Men's 50
95 posts
so okay have limits but make them more believable like AAA 6 homers or at least a walk after three.most guys at 50 to 55 can still hit them out and even if you are a great hitter like so many of you seem to be and can go backside and hit it down when you want three homers isnt anything.the rules that youre making dont go with the balls and bats we are using.alot of guys can hit 3oo ft line drives and they are trying to hit it down. you say change the bats and balls so if they do that would you go for unlimited homers then because i assure you that the guys that can hit them will still hit them and then what will you do to try to even the playing field
Dec. 13, 2012
crusher
Men's 70
389 posts
By limiting AAA to 3 HR's then outs can be a big savings for the bruts that can hit 10 or 11 HR's per game... Now they can use a thickwalled bat after hitting the 3 HR's in the 1st inning and not have to put out big dollars buying 4 or 5 composit bats each year.

Simple solutions, inc.

C
Dec. 13, 2012
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
Big cat, take no offense. If you want to hit that many homeruns per game, then move up. I personally get tired of hearing about 50-55 year olds capable of hitting the ball 300 ft. They are not making it go that distance the bat is. Use a metal bat if you need to keep it in the park. There are so many excuses on why we should do this or change that. Anything after a limit should be an out, for that matter maybe an inning ending out. That would start getting someones attention. Let's face it, if we were still using the equipment we grew up playing with we would not be having this discussion. JMO
Dec. 13, 2012
jsheeran
Men's 50
41 posts
For a small fee, Pricer and I will let you in on how to design a AAA team with 3 homerun limit and then outs.
Dec. 13, 2012
birdie
Men's 60
680 posts
Here is my take on the 3 homers then outs if you are a AAA team and are hitting 4 or more homers then you should be playing Major. We are a 60 major team and very seldom do we hit over 3 a game if ever. it is the same for most of the 60 Major teams that we have played against. So for AAA 3 homers then outs is good. If we were a AAA team I would still feel the same. Thank Harry
Dec. 13, 2012
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
Sheriff, I'm not paying any freakin fee. But enlighten the rest of the flock!
Dec. 13, 2012
big cat7
Men's 50
95 posts
i agree that maybe 6o and overs dont hit more than 3 a game but 50s and 55s do.maybe every tournament should be open at first and then you get classified like in the old days.that way you do build your team around what you think you will be playing.the only problem is that there just arent that many major or major plus team in every area so therefor there arent that many major players to choose from.so an AAA team from a area that only has a few teams might have one or two guys that could play major but cant so because these two or three guys can hit it the whole team should be major. oh i know what everyone is going to say if they can hit then they can hit it down when the limits are up.man that sure takes the fun out of the game just like the crybabies did back in the 90s when the limits started. softball isnt baseball the game is and always has been about hitting
Dec. 13, 2012
birdie
Men's 60
680 posts
big cat that is why they under hand it. You get yours and we will get ours. I think that every team has different situations that apply to them, 3 homers then outs is good for one team but not for another. It is a shame that a home run has to be an out. Seen enough homers for walks at times that something needed to be done. Thank Harry

Dec. 13, 2012
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
This is not a game of homeruns. If you want homeruns, have a contest! It gets to be so ridiculous to here grown men whining about the limits. Let's go back to open fields, then you can hit the ball as far as you want.
Dec. 13, 2012
the wood
1079 posts
BigCat:
You use the phrase 'like the crybabies did back in the 90s'. That's certainly one way to look at it. Another way would be that the assns had to do something to discourage the 'psuedo HR hitters' from playing down (psuedo = guys who were unwilling to do it against the upper division guys).
We found lots of guys back then that were the 'scourge of B or C ball' and couldn't hit the ball out of the infield in A or Open ball. So they'd go back down to B/C and be 'zip code heroes'.

Which argument is correct? I don't know and I don't care. I'm more interested in living in the 'what is' as opposed to the 'what was'.

Those of you that are dissatisfied with the new rules... how many of you actually took the time to be at the rules committee meeting last month? Or how many of you took the time to send in your feelings via a letter or an email (prior to the meeting)?
If you did neither is it reasonable to blame the assn for making the decisions that the clear majority wanted? If your views weren't represented whose fault is this?

The 'what is' for AAA is 3 HRs and an out thereafter. If that really bothered me I'd find an upper division team to play with. Whining about it on the message board would not be part of my M.O.
BW
Dec. 13, 2012
big cat7
Men's 50
95 posts
home runs have always been part of softball,put teams on two fields one having unlimited homers and the other no homers and charge admission to watch and lets see which game most go watch.but hey if you guys ruin senior ball like you did regular ball with all these rules and limits theres always golf. oh is there a limit on how far you can hit one of those?
Dec. 13, 2012
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
Got news for you, if your waiting fo someone to watch you play. You'll get old waiting. Oops, you & I both are old already. Those days are over, let it go!
Dec. 13, 2012
the wood
1079 posts
Well, go play on a M or M+ team and when I pay to watch a game maybe I'll be watching you.
We have 3 Nor Cal guys on our team that each drive at least 350 miles (each way) to play on our team. If we play in NV or AZ their total miles goes up. They pay their own travel expenses. Two of them hit HRs and one doesn't... and they're all 65+. We play once per month.
Are there M or M+ teams in their area? Yes, several of them.
I don't know how far you are from a M or M+ team, Big Cat, but it's done all of the time.
BW
Dec. 13, 2012
big cat7
Men's 50
95 posts
oh not me im not good enough for people to pay to watch or play on a major team. as pricer said im old already and a punch and judie hitter so i couldnt help anyone that good.i just have me opinions on home run limits just like you do and actually i think the limits should start at age 60 the 50s and 55s should be able to hit more they are younger and stronger but thats my opinion so ill let it go.
Dec. 13, 2012
big cat7
Men's 50
95 posts
and if you went to bigger fields or open fields wouldnt that be worse than having home run limits.how many gap home runs would be hit and how many over the outfielders heads homers would be hit so actually wouldnt there be more homers hit that way than by having a fence.
Dec. 13, 2012
the wood
1079 posts
While I believe that this was initially mentioned in a less than a serious mode, I hope that we NEVER see open fields again. I'd like our outfielders to know that they only have to cover 'x' amount of real estate. 300" is perfect now as it was 35 years ago.
Open fields would totally distort the game. But we do occasionally play with them in local senior leagues that use lesser equipment.
Open fields and the current bat/ball combo would be nasty.
We also play in an open field tourney each summer with younger players. Even though we use single wall bats the outfielders have to play 280' + from home plate and the grass seems putting green short. So there are lots of doubles (deep outfielders w/ tired arms) and lots of gappers... very few HRs that are hit over their heads.
We do it each year for fun but wouldn't want that to be the norm, IMO.
BW
Dec. 13, 2012
crump22
Men's 50
42 posts
JSheeran, if you keep adding players from your old Ice team , you will be playing Major Plus, real soon. lol
Dec. 14, 2012
jsheeran
Men's 50
41 posts
Crump, don't give me any ideas.....lol.....
Dec. 14, 2012
neck10
493 posts
they cant do that then jeff might have to agree with the screen when big arm redus vern mayo & a few of thos fellows bussed the tower??????????
Dec. 14, 2012
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
The only screen I'll ever agree to stand behind is the one on my front door. If you need a screen to play softball, you might want to consider darts or ping pong. Our game was not meant to have or need one. Maybe those converted catchers or DH might need them or the players that have their gloves repaired by the local welder! LOL
Dec. 15, 2012
jsheeran
Men's 50
41 posts
Maybe we just eliminate the human pitcher and use a pitching machine with a screen. Jeff you can feed the ball into the machine and then field your position left or right of the machine. But we might need an onsite welder and mechanic to fix the machine during games if it gets damaged by a wicked line drive. Maybe infielder robots too controlled by the human infielders from the dugout. Maybe we just play virtual senior softball online.
Dec. 15, 2012
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
Now your starting to get it! I believe with all the new equipment and technology we are acquiring, it won't be long before things like these are a suggestions or thoughts! Where do we stop and make it a sport where the deciding factor comes from the athlete playing the game and not the equipment being used? Was it really that bad with wood & metal bats?
Dec. 15, 2012
Fabe
Men's 50
218 posts
Too much money involved for us to go back to the "Old Days". Just enjoy the game n the health God gives us to play! We continue to voice our concerns a people who make decisions should listen. Aloha, Fabe
Dec. 15, 2012
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
Fabe, reading most of your post and I can tell you are good man. But, it would cost us less to go back, not more. I know it's not going to happen, but let's first be honest and forth right. It was safer, more strategy was used and it cost considerably less.
Dec. 15, 2012
Omar Khayyam
994 posts
Pricer, you might be right. Everyone worries about the thousands of guys who have bought expensive composite bats. The thinking is they wouldn't want to give them up because they have so much invested.

But I think it would be easy to phase in a return to single wall aluminum bats. First you ban composites and double walls for the major plus. They can hit them out with the older bats, anyhow (maybe not 400 feet, but surely 300). And the way they complain on this site about going through composite bats (3 or 4 or 5 a year), it would save them money within a couple of months.

Next come the majors, and many of them complain about durability of the current hot bats, so they too would quickly save money with a durable bat. Also at this level, pitchers would not have to invest in face masks, shin guards, etc. with a more normal bat. Also, any true home run hitter in the majors will still be able to jack them out; it just won't happen for guys like me who never hit one over the fence in decades of play until I owned my first Miken.

Then the AAA, and finally the AA. Could be done in 3 or 4 years and players would save millions in fragile bats. Manufacturers would start promoting their bats like the old days, based on endorsements of known sluggers, balance, weight, grip, style, etc.
Dec. 15, 2012
Fabe
Men's 50
218 posts
I apologize for my unclear post...I meant the industry would not want to give up the money being made on Senior Softball. Thats why the ASA is making a bid to run some tourneys. I agree it was less expensive for us and I pride myself on playn good defense as well as good hittn. Aloha, Fabe
Dec. 16, 2012
Webbie25
Men's 60
1974 posts
Too much money for the bat companies to let it happen, Omar. But even if they did, the problem of pitcher safety will still exist. The fact is we are getting older and what passes for quickness for us, just isn't. The difference is very small in time a ball travels to the mound between a hit off a composite and an alloy. I don't think we will see that happen any time soon.
Dec. 16, 2012
DCPete
234 posts
Memory might be faulty here, but didn't aluminum bats also have durability issues especially with denting and/or cracking? Didn't the umps start using the ring to check if bats were out-of-round from denting?
Seem to remember the alloy bats denting easily in the cooler weather, especially the hi-performance ones that had thinner walls?
Dec. 16, 2012
Webbie25
Men's 60
1974 posts
You remember right, DCPete. I remember taking my Demarini's to a light pole and rounding them out to use again. And they actually got hotter the more you rounded them. My Steele's bat or old Louisville brown 38 oz bat sure never dented.
Dec. 16, 2012
neck10
493 posts
I didnt realise what a defencesive star you are I guess it doesnt matter who goes up middle on you if your that good!!!!!!!!!
Dec. 16, 2012
neck10
493 posts
pricer are you goin to use the good balls with the single wall bats if so no problem they will still go if you hit them when I took batting practice with schlette he had thos old balls & i have and old single wall demirini ball went just fine a little slower out of the box but it got out there
Dec. 17, 2012
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
Webbie, just a split second can be the deciding factor in being hurt or not. So for the sake of mentioning it, it's something to consider. As far as the cold weather, when or where do any of the senior tourneys being played need to worry about the cold weather? It just seems that we continue to come up with more personal reasons for defending these composite bats than logic. The manufactures not wanting to change should not be the reason for not making one. I'm not advocating a change, I'm just using the responses I'm reading and these reason don't make any sense. Neck, I'm not gonna use anything. If you want to prove your point with your natural power swing. Use a single wall bat and prove your point. Don't spit your game unless you have one!
Dec. 17, 2012
boston
299 posts
I am for removing senior bats, they are far too hot. But, I do feel using USSSA or ASA composites would be fine. These bats are very capable with plenty of pop for those that need it. They are also more durable and have 400 day warranties. You can also find many of them on sale for $149 to $220 instead of $300 to $340. Easton has several USSSA bats that come with 2 returns. These bats are also great in cold weather. I used my new Worth Resmondo WSE (Christmas present)this past weekend in 50 degree weather. It performed awesome 3-4 w/ 3 HR's. I'm a little guy at 175 lbs. Another player used my Worth 454 and hit 2 out. As you can see senior bats or USSSA bats composites are hot. As I have said in the past just a matter of hitting 340 to 400 feet or 305 to 330 ft. Still a home run.

As for going back to wood or aluminum no way. We should use the technology that is available today. Senior ball has changed alot of rules to accommodate for the age and skill of the players. Changing to wood and aluminum bats wold be ludicrous.


"Stay thirty my Friends"
Dec. 17, 2012
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
Boston, for the sake of asking, what's ludicrous about it? What would be your reason other than technology? What is the technology that makes these better? Is it is more forgiving and allows for players to miss the ball, but still get a better result or are they a much more durable product for the money we pay? Does the wood or metal bats concern folks more because their personal game at the plate would suffer or the overall integrity of the game would be changed? Just food for thought!
Dec. 17, 2012
jimjoes-gman
Men's 55
80 posts
BIG CAT ole buddy.....was talking w/your old friend Cobbie recently....we were recalling how the ASA Men's Major (young guys) , has a limit of 10 HR'S & that big exposition game with the USA & Canada ,on ESPN each year, has a limit of 10 HR'S. That game has some very strategic moments each year when those guys show their versatality w/the bat to keep it in the park late in the game. Take care pal........AAA-3 hr's , then outs.
Dec. 17, 2012
Webbie25
Men's 60
1974 posts
Pricer-I agree in some cases that the split second would make a difference, but I believe that with a high majority of line drives up the middle it will not make enough of a difference. Senior pitchers are just not going to react as well as they used to.

Dec. 17, 2012
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
Webbie, you might be right, but you might be wrong as well. Who's to say what split second made the difference between a great play or a tragedy?
Dec. 17, 2012
big cat7
Men's 50
95 posts
sorry i dont know who cobbie is so i think you have the wrong big cat, there seem to be alot of guys with that nickname. i got mine because im 6ft3 and 270 pounds and mostly pitch catch or just do what i do best and thats hit anyways i was catching one night and a bad throw got by our pitcher and i yelled at our shortstop see you didnt think i could move and im as quick as a cat, and he said a real big cat and the name stuck.As far as the border battle games every year they run out of homers it has nothing to do with strategy its because to those guys 300 ft fences are bunts.if you watch it they hit as many out for outs as they do ground balls.and noone (young guys ) especially major players play asa anymore.
Dec. 17, 2012
Webbie25
Men's 60
1974 posts
Pricer-you're right, it might or might not-never been a study. At 100 mph a ball travels 60 feet in .409 seconds and at 95 mph a ball travels 60 feet in .430 seconds. Does .021 (21 one thousandths)of a second make that large a difference? To senior softball players, ????? Maybe. Interesting question that brings in the variable of human reactions. I guess my point was it's not as big a difference as you might think timewise. I'll see if I can research human reaction times.
Dec. 17, 2012
softball4b
Men's 60
738 posts
I can tell you that there is not much time difference getting to the end, whether the buffett line is 100' or 75', the only problem is when they stick the dessert bar in the middle. That slows me down considerably.
Dec. 17, 2012
Webbie25
Men's 60
1974 posts
I got behind you once in line, Mike. I know it's true.
I was puzzled that you could not find the bell curve in the other thread. A quick look in the mirror might have done it.

Whew!
Dec. 17, 2012
boston
299 posts
The equipment has progressed and we must progress with it. I like the new equipment because it makes the game livelier. I personally like the composite bats not only for the way I hit, but also for the way they allow for tons of action in the OF. I keep myself in shape, so I can stay on top of my game with the equipment.

I have not played the game as long as many of the players on the board. So I cannot relate to softball in the 70' and 80's. I have never played baseball with anything but a wooden bat, even in the 90's. But, I probably would have enjoyed the metal bats.

Expense and durability are a key for me as well. My son played with metal in high school and leagues. They then went to wood and i would up paying more having to replace wood bats. Sort of like using senior bats over USSSA or ASA bats.

As I have stated earlier senior bats are unnecessary with the technology in all bats. That is one of the changes I would make. As for my game changing with wood or aluminum. i am still plenty fast enough so my game wouldn't be affected like the big guys that depend solely on power.
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