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Discussion: one out bases loaded

Posted Discussion
Dec. 10, 2012
Wes
Men's 65
306 posts
one out bases loaded
Bases loaded one out ball hit to third base,third baseman catchs ball tags the runner standing on third base then tags runner coming from second base--double play--NO unpire said you must throw to home and then back to third--Ok

Same tournament new umpire base loaded one out, ball hit to third, third baseman catchs it (WOW two times in a row)throws it to home plate, catcher throws it back to third baseman and
he tags the runner coming from second. double play--NO umpire
said that the runner on third does not have to run as long as
he stays on the base you can not put him out.

STAFF I would like to get a ruling on this that I can put in my bag to show the next umpire what the rull is---I do not
know which right

If runner does not have to run then if all runner stay on thier
bag who is out the batter---also if batter hit's to second base
and runner does not run to second but stays on first who is out
the batter---this would stop all double plays
Dec. 10, 2012
Mario
Men's 50
345 posts
If it was a line drive, runner on 3rd is safe. The runner running from 2nd would be out. If it was a broung ball the runners that are tagged before they get to the next bag are out.
Dec. 10, 2012
Mario
Men's 50
345 posts
Oops it should read ground ball, not bround ball.
Dec. 10, 2012
SSUSA Staff
1006 posts
Wes - It was a bad day at the office for those umpires! ...

SCENARIO 1 You don't mention in either instance whether or not the ball hit to the 3rd baseman was a grounder or a line drive. If it was a line drive, the runner on 3rd is safe if he stays on the base. If it was a grounder, the runner must vacate 3rd base and advance toward Home. He is no longer entitled to the base, does not gain a safe haven by stalling his departure and is OUT when the tag is applied. The runner from 2nd being tagged out advancing to 3rd base completes the double play.

SCENARIO 2 At the risk of being redundant from above, the runner must vacate 3rd base and advance toward Home. He is no longer entitled to the base, does not gain a safe haven by stalling his departure and is OUT when the throw is caught by the defensive player (presumably the catcher) at Home. The runner from 2nd being tagged out advancing to 3rd base completes the double play, again.

We're sorry that you were victimized twice in the same tournament by those calls.
Dec. 10, 2012
canIjack
Men's 60
319 posts
IT's call a Force PLAY!!!! In what country were you playing? Your third baseman just completed 2 double plays in a row and in 1 inning. Your third baseman did everything correct. Actully he never did have to tag the man running to third. All he needed to do was to touch third base bag. That umpire was A hole backwards. Where were you at again?
Dec. 10, 2012
stick8
1238 posts
Mario is correct.
Those umpirtes need to attend a clinic!!
Dec. 10, 2012
Sisavic
134 posts
SSUSA: What happens if the runner on 3rd base takes one or two steps off the base towards home and retreats to 3rd base when the 3rd baseman steps on 3rd base and throws home. The force at home is off, and it seems to me to be one out only.
Dec. 10, 2012
Wes
Men's 65
306 posts
Ground balls
Thanks Staff the umpires were very clear that the
runners did not have to move.

Sisavic that's why you must throw home first
unless you can tag him before he get's back to
third
Dec. 10, 2012
cal50
Men's 50
256 posts
Wes, If the runner stayed on the base and you tagged the base first, then the runner going to third would be out and the runner who stayed on third would be safe. But if you tagged the runner while he was on the base first then tagged the base it would be a double play, both would be out.
Dec. 11, 2012
steve65
Men's 65
175 posts
as long as the runner stayed on third he could not be tagged out--and when bag is tagged or the runner coming from second is tagged then the need for runner on third to advance is nullified--therefore as long as the runner on third stays on the bag as stated by Wes then he is safe --one out period
Dec. 11, 2012
stick8
1238 posts
Steve65 in the situation described, cal50 is correct. If bases are loaded and a one-hopper is hit to third all runners are forced to move up. If the runner on third chooses to stay on third he can be tagged out with his foot on the bag as long as the fielder doesn't touch third base before applying the tag.
Dec. 11, 2012
SSUSA Staff
1006 posts
That's incorrect Steve65 - As long as the force play is intact (as presented in the facts), the runner on 3rd must vacate the base, and stalling to do so does not provide a safe haven. He's out when tagged in the 1st scenario and out when the throw to home was completed in the 2nd scenario. If the defender had stepped on third prior to the tag (or the throw home), that's an entirely different proposition, but not what was stated in the factual circumstances ... stick8 (and others) were correct on this one: Double Play
Dec. 11, 2012
Sisavic
134 posts
SSUSA. I'm confused, which is easy for me to become. I thought I understood until SSUSA brought up the concept of the requirement to "vacate" the base. Two questions:

1. Does the requirement to "vacate" end when the 3rd baseman first steps on 3rd base, making the force at home null and void?

2. Alternatively, see my question above about taking 1 or 2 steps off 3rd base and then returning to 3rd base after the 3rd baseman steps on 3rd base and then throws home?


Dec. 12, 2012
the wood
1071 posts
Sisavic:
It's called a 'force play' for a reason. When the force is in play each forced runner must advance until he reaches the next base, is put out or the force is removed. If a runner dances off a base and goes back to it the base is not a safe haven unless the force has been removed. It doesn't matter if he dances off base, proceeds to the commitment line or does handstands, he is liable to be put out until the force is removed.
Using the same scenario as Wes initially laid out... should the force have been removed due to a tag of 1st or 2nd base the runner at third could use the bag as a safe haven. The runner going from 2nd to 3rd is then in jeopardy... the same is true for the runner going from 1st to 2nd base (if 1st base was tagged).
This happens more often than you'd think. The umpires in Wes' game must have really been 'under prepared'.
The 'safe haven' part that may have confused you could be when a runner is struck by a batted ball and is touching the base at the time. In SSUSA this results in a dead ball and everyone advances one base... not an out. At least this is the way their rule read a few years ago. SPA just calls it a live ball, not an out and not a free base... unless SPA has changed it.
BW
Dec. 12, 2012
Wes
Men's 65
306 posts
Staff thanks again, is there a section in the rulls that say that the runner on 3rd must "vacate the bag"???
I started playing third 2 years ago and the first
time it came up was when I tag the runner standing on third then steped on the bag and then
threw to second. Ump called it a double play
telling me the only way to get the runner out at third was to tag him while he is off the bag or
throw home.
the wood is right it happens alot and there is
no clear ruling from SPA or SSUSA unpires--I
have also ask SPA for rulling in writing.
Dec. 12, 2012
SSUSA Staff
1006 posts
Wes - This is discussed in SECTION 8 ON BASE SITUATIONS of the SSUSA Rulebook, specifically at:

8.1 B (on page 54) When a base runner acquires the right to a base by touching it before being put out, he may hold the base until he has legally touched the next base in order or is forced to vacate it for a succeeding runner. - [emphasis added]

As long as the force play is in effect, the runner must advance toward the next base and has no safe haven by remaining on the former base occupied.
Dec. 13, 2012
Wes
Men's 65
306 posts
That's great thanks but the 64,000 ??? still is
if he is forced to vacate and does not by standing on the base--if I tag him is he out
or do I have to throw home???
Dec. 13, 2012
cal50
Men's 50
256 posts
If you tag the runner before you tag the base he is out regardless of whether he is standing on the base or not.

If you tag the base first and then tag the runner while he is standing on the base he is safe because you took away the force by tagging the base first.
Dec. 13, 2012
SSUSA Staff
1006 posts
He's OUT, exactly as cal50 stated. The base is NOT a safe haven so long as the force out opportunity at 3rd base is still in play. Where the runner is physically located, touching the base or not, is irrelevant and he is out upon the tag.

In scenario #1, you executed a nice unassisted double play. In scenario #2, it should have been scored a 5-2-5 double play.
Dec. 14, 2012
Webbie25
Men's 60
1931 posts
I'm amazed this thread has gone so long. I have played first base a lot and one of my favorite plays it to play even with the base with a runner on first and when I get a hard grounder, a simple tag, (and usually the guy is still on first base), and then touch first for the double play. Same thing as the scenario on third. As soon as the ground ball is hit, the base is no longer the runner's. But, Cal is right-if you tag the base first-then the force is off and the runner can remain on the bag.
Wes-that was what I term 'unfortunate umpiring'.
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