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Men's 60

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April 7, 2008
Topic: Associations
Discussion: SPA HR rules

We competed in the recent Mustang Classic Qualifier Mar 29-30 in 50/AAA and the rule was 2 HRs and then a "single"---but the runners had to be forced in order to advance. This amounted to making the extra HR s the equivalent of a base on balls. There was no limit on the number of balls each team could hit out of the park...except that the first two only counted as homeruns...and then singles for the rest of that game.
By the way, we had an excellent time there despite the gloomy weather. SPA treated us hospitably and made all the teams feel as though their presence at the event was appreciated and valued.
April 1, 2008
Topic: General and miscellaneous
Discussion: Team Coaches Get No Respect

The remarks posted by Enviro-Vac are absolutely priceless. I don't think anyone could have encapsulated the unique challenges faced by senior coach/managers any better. Many thanks for saving it all this time..and for sharing it again now, Jim. It could not have come at a better time for me and is the most encouraging thing I could have read as I strugglw with the aftermath of dealing with several team "cancers."

The team I manage has had a brutal time of it in the past 6-8 months. I have been insulted, defamed, and personally attacked on this website by men whom I have never met and who have never played for me, yet have been given incomplete or grossly inaccurate information from angry, immature, and disingenuous former players. They chose to publish that inflammatory misinformation and add their own bilious opinions for the entire world to read---without so much as a phone call to verify its authenticity.

Over what?

Over playing time in a senior softball tournament if you can believe that. These men know what they have done to former teammates they called "friends," and continue to do everything they can to promote their perceived "injustices" even as they try to live with the visceral awareness of their own malignant cowardice.

Players who insist to the point of physical threats on playing every inning of every game and then whose performance suffers from the fatigue they cannot hide on Sunday; players who criticize every lineup selection and every strategic decision, but do not have the manly ingredients needed to do the job themselves; players who ridicule their teammates for not having enough ability; players who boast about Hall of Fame nominations for themselves and then play like chumps when the chips are down; players who walk off in the middle of tournaments because the game times were rescheduled and they were inconvenienced...leaving their mates to contend with no bench; players who tell you at the start of the year to count on them for every tournament and then show up barely half the time; players who want to quit you 6 weeks before the World Championships for a "better offer"...all of these petulant, childish behaviors are neatly condensed in a few (former) players of ours who went very public with venomous half-truths, distortions, and outright lies about our team.

Where were they when it was time to organize the tournaments? To run the practices (which they rarely attended)? To make out the lineup? To deal with all the petty jealousies of likeminded ego-maniacs who need more stroking than a kitten just weaned from its mother.

Most players will tell you they would not do what coaches do---no wonder when there is so little appreciation of the incomprehensible pettiness and self-centeredness most (if not all) coaches endure "...for the love of the game..."

Why do we continue to do it? Probably because, as Full Count just learned, if we didn't the team would fold.

I know I'm speaking for a lot of coaches who have dealt with very similar situations---some years don't turn out like you had hoped, right???---and I share these thoughts and my experience with all of us who must keep silent most of the time in the hope of convincing you to stay the course because you love the game so much and you are not alone in your frustration---or your exhilaration when things are going well.

This is a wonderfully cathartic experience....thanks for the thread!!
Feb. 10, 2008
Topic: Rules of the game
Discussion: new team

To Diehard:

You should check with the appropriate organization to be sure, but at the start of a new year, players are free to move just about wherever they want to...the only exceptions, as I understand it, are the Major Plus "impact" players.

The rule states Major Plus players may only play one level below (Major)...but I interpret that rule to mean if they wish to play for another team in another age division in the same year they have already qualified with a Major Plus team.

As Sacramento has said, "We do NOT rate players, we rate Teams." (Again, the exception being the "impact" guys.)

If the old AAA team adds 4-5 Major Plus players... it will be up to Sacramento (SSUSA/SSWC) and other associations to determine if the new team must elevate. If the bulk of the team is heldover from the previous year's AAA roster, I surmise they will likely allow that team to play in the AAA division for a few tournaments until they establish themselves through game results as a Major team. That decision to elevate the team will be a result of the number of victories they achieve, the average margin of victory, the number of balls hit out of the park, the evaluation of a representative of the National Rating Committee, and possibly some other measurements.

The process will be I understand it, the initial team ratings will be determined in May/June and will allow teams to appeal their rating up til August---sometime around Aug 15, 2008, ratings will be frozen and no appeals will be considered after that date. The team's rating by the end of August will determine the level that team competes at for the October Worlds.

One new wrinkle this year, according to the Senior Softball News (Winter-Spring 2007-08 edition) the job of rating teams has been given back to each individual association. What that says to me is while SSUSA may rate a team AAA (for example), SPA may determine that team is Major, and ISSA may see it as Major Plus...or some variation thereof.

This was evidently done to address the reality that many associations have different standards for rosters---some allowing regional exemptions, snowbirds, and some even open rosters. Furthermore, some associations are often unable (or unwilling) to prevent "stacking" of rosters with sandbaggers.

If parity in competition is important to your team when considering whether to spend money to travel...better make sure you know if the association you're participating in has the resources to adequately check rosters. Otherwise, you could be in for a big surprise when you take the field.

Clearly, it isn't a perfect system. For the most part, though, we have found remarkable parity in the 50/AAA Arizona, California, and just about wherever we hev played. Any system that attempts to monitor competitve balance will rely ultimately on the integrity and honesty of the managers and players themselves.

Most of us believe it isn't that much fun to be on either side of a "whuppin."
Feb. 8, 2008
Topic: Rules of the game
Discussion: new team

Page 55 of the 2007 SSWC rule book covers this subject. A player can only be on one roster in the same age division, but he can play on two (or more) different teams if the teams are in different age divisions. Here's the rule that covers it from p. 55:

Sec 9.2 (6) B. "A player can only play on a team in the same skill level, or one skill level higher or lower. Example: A player in a 55 Major division cannot play on a 50 AA division team."

Whenever a new team is formed, SSWC has told me quite often that team enters as a AAA team and then its results over the next few tournaments will dictate its eventual rating. Sacramento (SSUSA/SSWC) has also told me quite often that they do NOT rate players, they rate teams...except for some Major Plus players they deem "impact" players. We added 5 major players to our AA team at the end of 2006 when we requested elevation to AAA and it was approved. A team is our area is doing essentially the same thing, having been a AA team for 2007 and is now competing in AAA with 4-5 former major players.

A team's results over the next few months will determine their eventual rating and where they will compete in October.

The important thing to remember when adding your new player is to be certain he does not QUALIFY--or has not already QUALIFIED--with another team because he is then frozen on that qualifying roster and will need to be legally released before he can play for you. If he does not obtain a release from his manager, your team risks losing all games in which he participated and he risks losing a year or more of eligibility. See page 20, section 5.1 (5) Double Registration under the DISQUALIFICATION section for the rules on this.

If you do not have a copy of the rule book you can download on this website.

Hope this helps
Jan. 30, 2008
Topic: Associations
Discussion: 2008 National Senior Softball Summit

Mr. Tait,

ISSA sent an email memorandum on Jan 23 that contained a brief summary of the Jan 19-20 Summit in Phoenix. Quoting from it...though not in its entirety...

"...The major topic of discussion this year was the National Rating System. The team rating...system...currently in place is only as good as the control on team rosters to insure they are in sync with one another...Simply put, if the tournament roster does not match the one the team had when rated, their National Rating is no longer valid unless the sanctioning body has appropriately addressed all player additions..."

"...there was a feeing that some member organizations fail to provide...assurance that teams do not have a stacked roster...[consequently] some changes will be forthcoming for 2008 in the rating reporting system..."

"...Team ratings also become difficult to manage...when...organizations utilize different rules or policies...Two examples are the use of high performance bats and the out-of-region player exception. One of the most diffcult skill levels to administer is the Major Plus..."

"...If parity is the root basis for the National Rating System...these issues cannot be ignored..."

" One of the objectives of the Senior Summit in the future will be to promote safety...Accordingly, we hope this will manifest itself into some reasonable concern for player safety when high performance bats are allowed..."


"...If we do not address this safety issue, field owners will or run the risk of gross negligence."

ISSA is one of several (nine, I believe?) member organizations that offer senior softball events. It sets its own rules and policies, as do most if not all the other members.

The Senior Summit that recently convened in Phoenix is NOT a rule-making body; rather it is a forum for delegates from different organizations to share information and suggestions and learn from one another.

As you can see from the ISSA memo, two of the main issues on the table for 2008 are National Ratings and safety.

Hope this will be interesting to see how the other organizations summarize the Summit...if they do at all.
Jan. 25, 2008
Topic: General and miscellaneous
Discussion: Rule changes - where are all the Major Plus players opinions?

Thanks, Joe, for your thoughtful response. On the issue of danger to the fielders and the pitcher, much has been said. I do find it interesting to note that sentiment on this message board among M+ players seems to be running decidedly against the new rule that intends to protect the pitcher. Correct me if I'm wrong on that.
As others have pointed out, the "intent" to cause injury to another player is difficult to ascertain, but I can tell you I have played with M+ players (and those from other divisions) who have not been shy in the dugout (quietly) about their intent to do harm to a pitcher...and then backed it up with a rocket that hit a shin, or a knee, or a chest.
I've even read threats of physical harm to others on this very website, although we don't take seriously the rantings of the deranged, do we?

My purpose is not to criticize your division...I intend to play there when I grow up, but a 65-major Plus team will probably be more to my liking. I'm still having too much fun trying to beat 50 year olds in AAA/Major. Those guys can play. It's the best softball I've seen in the 4 years I've been around senior ball---dead serious.

I do feel, though, that many of your numbers are a bit out of touch with the economic reality of senior softball. How could an organization survive with the numbers of M+ players. You guys are a great bunch of veteran players, but by yourselves you would not have one tournament to play in...unless you organized a pick-up gathering in your own region.

Please consider that the preponderance of Homeruns, while offering a certain aphrodisiac to some, is a grave threat to your entire division. There just are not enough players who a) hit that many; and b) find anything enjoyable about standing around watching the ball sail out of the park.

Most players at all levels still want to run, throw, play defense, hit behind the runner, turn doubleplays, pitch as effectively as a slow-pitcher can, and generally excel at all aspects of this fabulous game.

While many M+ games feature a wonderful blend of all that, far too many are one-dimensional slugfests that leave everyone involved somewhat empty.

You guys need a way to attract more players to your division...I'm betting if you offer a more complete experience you'll have some takers instaed of playing the same old teams and the same old players who've switched to the newest "paid" team.

Apprecite the dialogue and look forward to hearing your thoughts.
Jan. 25, 2008
Topic: General and miscellaneous
Discussion: Rule changes - where are all the Major Plus players opinions?

Patty Mac-

You want M+ games to last 90 minutes? Wouldn't that extend games an inordinate length of time? Imagine a 6th inning starting at the 86th minute...finish the inning AND THEN you get the open? That game might last 3 hours.

How can you justify that in a tournament with, for example, 25 other teams expecting to use the same fields and limited to 60 minute games?

You should take note of the fact that AA, AAA, and Major teams comprise 94% of the players in senior softball. That means 94 cents of every dollar paid comes from these lower divisions. That means without us, you don't have a place to play. Without us you'd be lining up trash cans on a vacant lot somewhere and playing "Home Run Derby" for a case of beer.

I think it's time many of the M+ players awoke to the fact that your wishes do not in any significant way reflect what is best for senior softball. You appear to have hijacked this message board to a great extent, but your numbers represent a mere 4-6% of the player pool---many of you jump from team to team upsetting the parity tournament organizers are trying to assure others who pay to come and compete; the dizzying barrage of longballs in your division makes a travesty of an otherwise great game; your declining (or completely absent) skills in defense, baserunning, and throwing make a mockery of the oft-stated (and self-proclaimed) mantra that you are the "best-of-the-best" in senior softball.

It's time you all realized only a fraction of the thousands of seniors still playing want anything to do with a game that features 40-50 balls or more hit out of the park. That is a dreadfully silly waste of everyone's time and is undoubtedly why one M+ sponsor told me last year he was giving it up because he thought Major Plus was ---and I quote---"...a DYING division."

Get real...start playing the full game on your skills...RUN THE BALL OUT for crying out loud. Many of you he-men can't even get to first base without calling for a "courtesy runner."

It's the only future you have once the Ultra 2s and other lethal bats are outlawed...and if you don't think that is coming you haven't been paying attention. Note the most recent ISSA Newsletter that summarizes the Summit Meeting last weekend in Phoenix. It was emailed to managers just last Wednesday.

It's great you can hit a lot of homeruns...but too much of a good thing tends to ruin alcohol or recreational drugs...the game is so much more than the dinger, or have you forgotten all that.

I suggest you approach any and all discussions about what is best for senior softball from the point of view that what improves the experience for the greatest number. is the way to go..not just what is best for your division. After all, why would any organization try to satisfy its smallest number of paying customers (its "light" users) at the expense of its heavy users? Talk about the tail wagging the dog...

Hoochie-mama, that oughtta get the fires raging!
Jan. 25, 2008
Topic: General and miscellaneous
Discussion: OK You Gym Rats Out There


Doughnuts and coffee in the morning and a hot fudge sundae with the evening workouts work for me.
Jan. 10, 2008
Topic: Rules of the game
Discussion: What Would You Change - Have More Teams at Tournaments to Fill the Divisions

It seems to me the way to get more teams to enter tournaments is to get more players into senior softball. Admittedly, this is a "long term" goal, but the demographics are on our side. Baby boomers are now between the ages of 44 and recruiting and playing age for SSUSA and other organizations...and they represent the largest number of people in any generation in the nation. There are millions of them out there who know NOTHING about senior softball...and they are turning 50 faster than you can imagine.

Each one of us is a marketing arm of senior softball, and with the amount of fun our team is having playing ball it isn't hard to sell fellow seniors we meet about this game.

Every player on every team should make it his personal goal to sign one new senior player in 2008---imagine the tournament slates with so many more players involved.

Here's what might happen. Look at the Ratings section of this website---there are over 2000 teams rated in all age divisions. With an average of just 12 players per team, that totals almost 25,000 players active in the senior game today. Even allowing for 30% duplication (a high estimate) there are almost 17,000 players competing. Double that by taking personal responsibility to find one new player this year and you have over 34,000 players suited up and on teams for 2009...maybe more.

This personal one-on-one "sales job" is the best way to do it, but the big senior organizations could help by doing a little more PR, advertising, and marketing of the product to help increase awareness.

Go get 'em!!
Oct. 30, 2007
Topic: Players looking to join a team
Discussion: Want to start playing again

There are quite a few teams in the area encompassing the full spectrum of ability and age...from 50/AA all the way up. Four local AAA teams competed in the recent World Championships held here annually in October and our team was one of them. Several other teams competed in other divisions. You'll have an excellent selection to pick from and should look them all over.
Our team is CJ&S Express and we've been together for the most part for 3+ years. But, we do add players each year while some others leave and that is the case for 2008. We'll have a couple of roster spots there for the taking. If you'd like more information or want to try out, give me your contact information at 510-418-4853.
Thanks...look forward to hearing from you.
Dennis Dalton
Oct. 20, 2007
Topic: Players looking to join a team
Discussion: 50+ player in AZ


CJ&S Express is a 50/AAA team based in Phoenix playing 24 tournaments in 2007. We expect some roster turnover for 2008 (which begins NEXT WEEK) and are looking for complete ballplayers. You can contact me by email at or phone 602-214-4292.
Dennis Dalton
Jan. 22, 2007
Topic: Players looking to join a team
Discussion: looking for 50,s team in the phoenix area

Reach me at for info on CJ&S Express.

Jan. 22, 2007
Topic: Players looking to join a team
Discussion: looking for 50,s team in the phoenix area


Jan. 21, 2007
Topic: Players looking to join a team
Discussion: looking for 50,s team in the phoenix area

CJ&S Express is a Phoenix team that plays 18-22 tournaments per year...many of them away from Phoenix. We're always looking for complete ballplayers willing to travel who can hit and play excellent defense.
We're playing in Phoenix this weekend. Email if you want more information and we'll talk. Look forward to hearing from you.

Jan. 1, 2007
Topic: General and miscellaneous
Discussion: Who's Going to TOC in Florida???

CJ&S EXPRESS (Phoenix, AZ) is going to the TOC in WinterHaven and competing in AAA/50's Division . We encourage everyone who qualified to attend this tournament because if all those winners show up, the TOC promises to be the best event of the year.
Oct. 16, 2006
Topic: Tournaments
Discussion: Vote on Changing SSWC Format!!!!!!!!

The World Championships offer the only 4-day tournament that I'm aware of, and thus is a very special event. My vote is to keep it a 4-day event and to explore ways to INCREASE the minimum number of games---giving teams a chance to play up to 8 games before facing the trip home. As a couple of others suggest, this is one of the few times we're given an opportunity to play teams from other parts of the country and I agree we should take advantage of that. When the expense of traveling is considered, doesn't it make sense to play MORE games rather than fewer?
Sept. 15, 2006
Topic: Players looking to join a team
Discussion: player 53 moving to phoenix, az looking for a team

Breeze53-- Please give me your contact information and when you get to town we'll set up a tryout. We're stepping up to 50s/AAA in 2007 and are looking for complete players that hit and play good defense.

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