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Discussion: CERTAIN FEES!!

Posted Discussion
Jan. 9, 2014
Duke
Men's 60
678 posts
CERTAIN FEES!!
The typical fee for a small 2 day SSUSA weekend tournament is $350. For a small 2 day weekend Top Gun run tournament, the typical fee can range from $375 to $395. My question to my softball friends is, why is it that we pay more for TOP GUN run tournaments?? Do they run any better than other SSUSA tournaments? I do not think so. What do we get for the extra fees? Here are some of the extras that you may get: 1) too many teams for the number of fields reserved, therefore, night games, 2) shortened game times, again because too many teams, 3) less games to be played(guaranteed), and 4) any combination of the above. SSUSA has always guaranteed 5 games and regular game times, unless there was weather issues, then the games and/or game times were altered, no problem. We are all geared to the usual guarantees offered by the SSUSA product, but not when Top Gun runs the tournament. For example: I have played in Top Gun tournaments, where our game was called on time after only 47 minutes?? Are you kidding me?? This is because they allowed too many teams to attend and not enough fields. I am going to Menifee this weekend, and we are again paying a higher fee than normal for a smaller weekend tournament, and only a 4 game guarantee. The fee should be lower for a 4 game guarantee, not higher. If you think that I am wrong about this, please let me know, thanks.

JMHO,

Andy Smith

Jan. 9, 2014
Duke
Men's 60
678 posts
Apparently, I hit the nail on the head. Over 150 players have read this, and not one player has disagreed with me yet. In fact, I have received many emails and all agreeing with me. I guess since everyone does not mind spending the extra bucks for getting a lesser product, we will continue to be sponsors for Top Gun teams.

JMHO,

Andy Smith
Jan. 10, 2014
curveball
Men's 65
395 posts
Duke, please share with us the breakdown of fee allocation. Is there an excess amount of profit left over because things are so much cheaper in CA?
If so, then I think you have an issue.

If your team is planning on traveling and is concerned with the $350 budget for entry fees, I'd avoid the following:
The Chili Pepper Classic
1st State Spring Classic
Milwaukie Classic
Heart of Texas
Cornbelt Classic
CT Masters Games
Quad Cities Classic
AZ Western States
Aggieland Classic
Badger classic
Labor Day Classic
and the Last Chance qualifier.
(all these are over $350, with 5 @ $400 and higher)

You have the same choice as everyone else, if you don't like or enjoy the tournament, don't support it. If enough of you in SoCal do not support them, I'm confident the tourneys would fold. Thank you for letting us know your thoughts on how Top Gun runs their tournaments. I'd assume you'll give us an update after you play there this weekend on how it was run this year.


Jan. 10, 2014
Omar Khayyam
958 posts
Duke, I've never played in a Top Gun tournament so I can't comment on quality comparisons or overscheduling fields. And curveball's comments about higher prices in California is probably accurate.

What I can tell you is that Northern California Senior Softball Association scheduled 56 tournaments in 2013 (although some were cancelled for lack of signups) and the fees ranged from $285 to $310, with the average fee being $300. These tournaments use the same umpires as SSUSA, play on the same fields, and are typically well-run and competitive, due to NCSSA's decision to bracket teams by ability, not age.

These are mostly played in California (with California prices) and a few played in Nevada or southern Oregon. And NCSSA is not a for-profit organization as SSUSA is, so it is run by volunteers and costs are lower thereby. TDs do try to break even (in some tournaments) and most try to make a profit, either for themselves, their team, or their Club.
Jan. 10, 2014
swing for the fences
Men's 50
976 posts
I second what Omar said... NCSSA is well ran and here in CA it is surprising that they can get it done for those cost and they usually have nice winning prizes... The entry fee for a team of 12 to play ball over the weekend seems to me, to be the drop in the bucket as far as cost.. However, if I were not getting in full 1hr plus mins per game I would feels cheated no matter what the fee was... Anyhow, I would just boycott not playing Tourneys where I felt I was getting cheated.. IMO
Jan. 10, 2014
Duke
Men's 60
678 posts
Curveball,

For arguments sake and time, I will take your word for the tournament prices of the tournaments that you have checked. With that said, it has always been assumed that all SSUSA tournaments are a 5 game guarantee. This Menifee tournament has always been that in 13 years attending Menifee or any other tournament. We have all spent money for traveling and expect to get our games. Lately,it just seems that every time that Top Gun runs the tournament, that the same thing happens, too many teams for the number of fields available. They have either cut the game times down or as has happened in this tournament, only a 4 game guarantee. I think a $50 rebate towards their next SSUSA tournament would be in order here for all teams, or at the very least, the teams that do not play 5 games. Some teams will play 5 games, and that is all that I expect. Talking to teams that have played Thursday and Friday, they were disappointed, because they want their games as has always been in the past. Although I could figure out the profit made, I am not concerned about their profit, just want the product that has always been promoted. They deserve to make a profit, and we deserve to have our usual 5 game guarantee with the usual game times.

Omar,

I am not going to boycott SSUSA, although, it is their responsibility to make sure that whoever runs their tournaments, do what they always promote. I do not run the team that I am on now, but I will recommend to boycott Top Gun tournaments in the future, especially if, we do not get a rebate for the Menifee tournament. If they decide to go anyway and take it in the shorts, then I will attend as to the majority of our team votes. We now have over 6 California organizations running tournaments, but prefer to play in SSUSA, as they do know how to run a great tournament with competitive teams.

That is all that I have to say about this matter. Thanks for your responses guys.

See you at the fields,

Andy Smith


Jan. 12, 2014
Duke
Men's 60
678 posts
Guess I lied, two more comments. Winners in this tournament received a $3 hat that did not even say Champions on it. How wonderful. I vote to have Donnie run the tournaments in Southern California. He has always done a terrific job in the tournaments that he has run.

JMHO,

Andy Smith
Jan. 12, 2014
Jano23
Men's 50
95 posts
Hey Andy,
How did you find out what the winners received? :-)
Jan. 13, 2014
Marv19
Men's 60
424 posts
Andy, I must comment on the 4 game minimum. Its really a matter of math. If a team enters a tournament with a 2 game seed and double elimination format 99% of the time there will be some teams that will only get 4 games. There is no other way around it. Unless the T.D. gets creative and has a special bracket for consolation games to give the "4 Game" guys their 5th game. I did not see anywhere where that Top Gun guaranteed 5 Games. Unlike us where we specifically state we guarantee 5 games for all our two day tournaments. So to their defense how can they be held accountable for something they didn't advertise? In your reply to this try to refrain from using the word assume :O) As for the actual schedule. Top Gun didn't even do the schedule. SSUSA did. So how can you slam Top Gun for scheduling issues when they turned over that job to SSUSA? When Vince ran this all teams were in the group were eliminated in the group. You then can do a 3 game seed. This way it becomes more likely to get 5 games in. As for overselling: 29 teams on 7 fields for the weekend is not overkill. It gets complicated by formatting. Personally I donít understand why you would go to a two game seed, Double Elimination tournament then break out M from AAA for a $3 hat anyway. Itís a qualifier... The only reason to be there is to qualify a roster... Right? You don't plan a two day trip spend $375, plus, plus for a $3 hat right? I won't comment on the $3 dollar hat deal but there is an association in Southern California that gave out over $10,000 in cash and prizes in 2013. Not to mention the charity fund raisers we have planned for this year. This weekend alone we had 13 women's teams and gave out $500 in cash to the finalists. Both First and Second places. BUT if you're really distraught about your $3 hat... tell you what Iíll do. I'll give anyone with that hat $1 at the February Tournament. Just see me and turn in your hat and get a buck. Cash... Green... One buck. Iíll then pass them on to a homeless shelter in town. This is no joke just enter your team and bring me your hat! Have a fun week everybody.
Jan. 13, 2014
taits
Men's 65
4251 posts
Come up to one of the NCSSA events and play. I cannot recall one where you didn't get 5 games for the 300 or so unless it was due to a forfeit somewhere by someone. Sched is posted on site and make a couple. Some are really popular and sell out fast.
P-town Mar, Turlock Apr, Elk Grove May, Tuolomne June, BLD Manteca in Aug, these are always sold out. and imo the better ones. Many others are good as well.
Jan. 13, 2014
StevenL.Imlay
Men's 60
53 posts
Just played in the Menifee tournament (SSUSA sponsored event which normally guarantees 5 games)last week and we only played 4 games not the normal 5 game guarantee. We played 65's Thursday and Friday.
It cost individuals and team sponsors money to travel to these tournaments and it seems unjust to get only 4 games. We did have the best 2 out of 3 games for the championship but only needed 2 games not sure if that figured into the equation.
We did receive the $3 hat. Well run tournament no complaints in that department...

SLi
Jan. 13, 2014
hitts
Men's 50
14 posts
Played this weekend in Menefee, played 55 majors. We were informed of the 4 games saturday night. It was our third game on Saturday. Myself i drove 6 hrs to play. I wasn' t upset about this because if you win youkeep. playing. We ended the tourney playing 5 games. It was a well run tourney, had fun time first time playing in Menefee. One coment Wheatfield outfied needs work . Ashley was a very nice 2 field park.
Jan. 13, 2014
the wood
1071 posts
Steve is 100% correct. We were expecting a 5 game guarantee and only received 4 games. As the mgr, I have to take responsibility for the assumption as it wasn't advertised as such as a 5 game guarantee.
However, when I communicated with the Top Gun and SSUSA personnel (via emails, prior to the draw being posted) I asked about the format. No one ever responded to my Qs regarding the number of seeding games.
Steve is also correct that we liked everything else about the tourney. The draw made good sense (the structure of it, not the # of seeding games), the fact that we had the 'early shift' on the 1st day and 'late shift' on the 2nd, 90 minute game time slots... all those things were great.
When you do the math... $375 for 4 games you'll see that you're getting close to the cost/game ratio of the World Masters Chamionships.
But we appreciated the fact that we played in Menifee and not shipped out to the Hemet fields as we were last year.
BW

Jan. 13, 2014
neck10
476 posts
steve you could have threw one game in the finals then you would have got if game!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!come on over to indianappolis in may you can play in the rain.rains every time for this tourney dont know why cant be moved to second week in may!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jan. 13, 2014
0
48 posts

Does anybody have the Menefee results?


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