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Online now: 3 members: B94, Dick6, TABLE SETTER 11; 55 anonymousDiscussion: 1 and 1 pitch count
| Posted | Discussion |
| Oct. 4, 2014 Pitcher22 Men's 50 39 posts | 1 and 1 pitch count What are the majority of players opinions of starting with a 1 and 1 count . I would be for it as I think it speeds up the game . Your thoughts on this |
| Oct. 4, 2014 E6 in AZ Men's 50 91 posts | Depends on the time .... Tourneys, sure let's start 1 and 1. It makes the games quicker and really shows who the better hitters are. Instead of the hitter sitting and looking for one pitch to drive, it puts more pressure on them to possibly hit the ball where it's pitched. This count also keeps the defense in the game on every pitch, instead of waiting to get involved once a strike is thrown. Finally, this count keeps the games moving and (hopefully) on schedule. During spring training or league, I would rather see more pitches to work on where I am driving the ball. Just my 2 cents. |
| Oct. 5, 2014 Fred S Men's 85 297 posts | Hate it with passion both as a hitter and pitcher. More time is wasted in between innings than you would ever save with a one and one count. |
| Oct. 5, 2014 taits Men's 65 4548 posts | While this has been brought up more than a few times, both those issues mentioned are valid but there are others also. CR's for one, on deck batter not ready, arguments on bad calls or injuries which thank God, are rare, & probably a few I forgot. I'm against it. It's another item that cuts the game from where it originally was, They have taken away runs or all kinds, time to play a full game, players choice of wearing protection or not, and more. Given few safety rules some of which were changed more than once. Increased distances for base running and pitching. And fee cost, well it's up there. But over all it is still good and we continue to attend. |
| Oct. 5, 2014 Marv19 Men's 60 498 posts | As a tournament provider I will tell you when we started this policy of the one and one it did several things. Some of which are outlined by E6 in Az. But more importantly it keeps us on time. Since implementing it we now have been on time well over 90% of the time. But here are a couple of the pros: You as a hitter now will get more times at the plate. No longer will guys sit and wait for the pitcher to throw the first strike. Yes I know we have a time limit. But it shortens the open innings and that is where most of the time is wasted setting on the first fat one that no one swings at. Pros: We have a much higher rate of 7 inning games than any other senior organization bar none. Cons: I have to listen to grumpy old men tell me about how... "I have ruined the purity of the game" Then I have to remind them the purity of the game was ruined with the 12 mph fastballs we all see now :O) Scott, the 70 foot bases is a safety rule change. SCMAF went to it a couple of years ago too. You can thank carbon fiber for that. Speaking of safety, Id like to see SSUSA go to the safety rule of leading off perpendicular to the line on 3rd base when the ball leaves the pitchers hand. How many times have you been on 3rd when the team gorilla is at the plate and you have no where to go until he hits it?? yikes! We use it and everybody likes it. Its there for your protection. |
| Oct. 5, 2014 taits Men's 65 4548 posts | Marv, Am well aware of which changed did what and for the why. Huff Puff, I'm almost to first.... Help, I need a runner blue. Remember the moves in base lined over the years (decades) for them as well. By the time we retire, lol, they will likely be at 75. Possibly with the mound at the 60 limit as it is. Understand the 'time' (did all that) but players are paying through the 'nose* for it, and the takers of that are living on OPM. And that IS what it is all about, more of it. *gonna have to cut back on that crack stuff. my noise is going through withdrawals. lol I read good things about your events. But as far as the 12mph ball goes, I believe if it arcs at 6' level its legal as song as the delivery to the release point was legal. So how did that questionable ball play out you emailed me about for the other event? |
| Oct. 5, 2014 OlyPenSenior 21 posts | I'm not for it in league play, but accept its use in tourneys for time reasons so can get the most amount of innings in. Agreed that time between half innings can be managed better. |
| Oct. 5, 2014 JDub Men's 60 206 posts | I agree 100% with Marv's Changes to the 1 & 1 Count. I Pitch, Hit & Umpire! If you're a Pitcher Most Love it, Hitter you Don't really care, Walker you Dislike it. As an Umpire I would rather see Teams get all 7 innings in, as well as it really does help to keep Games & Tournaments on Schedule! Most City Leagues & Tournaments have adopted the 1 & 1 Count, therefore, there truly are No Cons (IMHO) . . . Have Fun, Be Safe, Jeff White #7 AZ Elite 50M+ |
| Oct. 5, 2014 crusher Men's 75 524 posts | No to liking 1-1 as a batter. Can get more innings played. My biggest problem is I am more likely to hit one up the middle by hitting a ball that is outside and close to the plate. I DO NOT LIKE HITTING PITCHER. And do not like getting 2 strikes on me by taking a close pitch. So, bombs away that has an unintended chance of going middle. |
| Oct. 5, 2014 Tim Millette 615 posts | 1-1 to start the AB would greatly help the seniors game. 0-0 is way to slow of a game..I heard the 55 plus guys averaged around five inning games. |
| Oct. 5, 2014 DoubleL10 Men's 70 907 posts | This topic has been beaten to death year after year. It seems to me the younger seniors prefer the 1-1 count while the older (65+) by-and-large prefer the traditional count. I play in a senior league here in OKC that uses the 1-1 and I am not a fan. As someone said above, one bad call or pitch on the back corner and the hitter is at a big disadvantage. I have hit many more pitchers in our league than I have in tournaments (none) due to having to protect the plate much earlier in the count. Just my personal experience. |
| Oct. 5, 2014 Pitcher22 Men's 50 39 posts | I find some of these comments funny ... If you think getting 5 pitches to look at before you pull the trigger to swing is comical and then you say that with a 1-1 count your more likely to go back through the box .. I say go take some BP and learn some bat control ...... With this logic after you get a full count pull out a T and take your last swing that way...... Then we get that it takes away from the purity of the game ..... It's a GIRLS game that we play its slo pitch not fast don't get me wrong I LOVE THIS GAME and will play by whatever rules they govern us by would just like to see it changed to 1-1 again just my opinion |
| Oct. 5, 2014 michael697 22 posts | I hate the 1-1 count game go's by fast enough. |
| Oct. 5, 2014 SSUSA Staff 3482 posts | The "1-1 Count" issue has been the subject of discussion and debate periodically for many years ... There have been two formal surveys of the SSUSA membership on the issue, initially in 2006 and more recently in December, 2012 ... Here are the results of those surveys ... • 2006 • Retain "0-0" = 55.0% • Change to "1-1" = 45.0% • 2012 • Retain "0-0" = 54.9% • Change to "1-1" = 45.1% While it is mathematically accurate to conclude that support for changing to "1-1" is trending in that direction, an increase of support for such a change of 0.1% over a six year period does not constitute a mandate ... Change in the forseeable future is highly unlikely ... |
| Oct. 6, 2014 Jawood Men's 50 943 posts | The "staff" beat me to it. While the 1 and 1 count is gaining some ground, I don't see it changing anytime soon because of the figures presented (not gaining ground fast enough). The 1 and 1 count would give us about 10 more minutes of game action instead of standing watching batters take pitches until they get a strike. As younger players who have never played softball with a 0-0 count enter senior ball, it will change, but not for a while. An alternative could be to make the mat wider, (not longer) and make the batters have to swing at more pitches, which would speed up the action and give us that extra inning of play that we are losing. |
| Oct. 6, 2014 the wood Men's 65 1123 posts | The 'extra inning that we are losing' has more to do with shorter time limits. Complicating factors are fumbling around with courtesy runners and guys strolling into the dugouts between innings. When we only play 65-75 minutes there will be fewer innings played. Rather than change the game, why not go back to longer time limits? Double L is exactly right... the older players prefer to play the game as we always have... or as close to it as possible. Even though a few-pea brains consider us 'less than manly' for our posture, we stand fairly united. It's got nothing to do with being gutless... zero. Bob Woodroof |
| Oct. 6, 2014 Tim Millette 615 posts | I think a flaw in ssusa is trying to throw all age levels into the same rules. I think since there are huge talent differences because of the wide spread of ages playing, ssusa needs to start looking at separating some ages/levels from all having the same rules.. As an example...I would not be surprised if the 1-1 count went to a vote in the 20 years age brackets from 40-60 years old that it would have a lot of support.. In that 20 year span the game usually ends in less then 7 innings and I know 1-1 would get more innings in the younger (under 60) age group... Maybe as an experiment ssusa could allow teams to play 1-1 if both teams agree at the coin toss...that way...staff could monitor how 1-1 goes without forcing the under 60s into it right away. |
| Oct. 6, 2014 STL0 Men's 60 230 posts | If I recall information in the newsletter a while back, the younger players wanted 1-1 count and older 0-0. How about 40, 50 and 55 play 1-1 and 60 and over play 0-0. I think your numbers supported that but I'd have to go back and check where the break actually was. If the age where the majority wants to use 1-1 count is actually different, then we just use whatever that age is. My personal opinion is that 0-0 is extremely slow and boring to play. The 1-1 count makes the batter be more aggressive. I play 50s so my opinion is in line with the metrics. Is it possible to have different rules for different age groups? if so, that looks like a potential solution. |
| Oct. 6, 2014 SSUSA Staff 3482 posts | The 2012 "1-1 Count" survey results are available from the following link ... Support/opposition for either side of the proposition varied both by age and by geographic area of the country ... • 2012 Survey: 1-1-Count Results Analysis |
| Oct. 6, 2014 Navy Men's 60 20 posts | I'm a pitcher, who plays in the Midwest, Minnesota to be exact, and favor the 1-1 count. As a batter I hit the first good pitch that come across the plate. I'm not putting myself in the position to hit a bad pitch by having two strikes whether I'm playing with a pitch count that's 1-1 or 0-0. The real issue is hustling on and off the field, and getting your courtesy runners out quickly! We just finished the Vegas tournament and the courtesy runner issue and getting them in play was ridiculously slow against the teams we played. We've all been around and playing long enough to know how to hustle and should know ahead of time who should be running for who when that time comes. That's my two cents! |
| Oct. 6, 2014 Marv19 Men's 60 498 posts | With all due respect to SSUSA I must make the following observation. I think your survey is flawed. Let's take the recent worlds as an example. There were, and I believe there are, far more 40-55 men playing the senior game today. At the worlds using 15 for all teams there were 257 40-55 teams or 3855 men. Yet you have only 1483 of that age group represented in the survey. Conversely you had 214 60-85 teams or 3210 men participating. But the survey shows a whopping 3215 men in that age category answering the survey. Not what I would call proper representation. I'll explain: I don't know how the survey was done but obviously the older guys responded in bigger numbers. Was it done online? Could it be there are far more retirees that could or were willing to participate. 40-55 year old men tend to work and have other priorities. IMO if the survey were done over the last ten days in Las Vegas with most of the demographic represented your results would be far different. Survey 40-55 = 1483 men Survey 60+ = 3215 men or 68% response from the older category Last ten days at the Worlds using the same 15 multiplyer 40-55 = 3855 men 60+ = 3210 men or 54% representation in the 40-55 category Conclusion: Only having 29% of any demographic vote on a rule or policy to change a rule is not realistic. Its the tail wagging the dog. I know its not a priority but having the majority of the demographic in the same location for 10 days would be the most logical place for a survey. Sorry for all the numbers and my apologies to the ladies as I only used the men to make my points. |
| Oct. 6, 2014 Jawood Men's 50 943 posts | Tim, To your point of the flaw of making all the age groups play by the same rules ... I was told by a high ranking SSUSA official that they want to keep the rules the same so the umpires have less to think about. Rather than teams agreeing at the coin toss, how about playing 1 and 1 during pool play next year as a trial? They already gave us 5 extra minutes of play, I don't think they will keep adding on. |
| Oct. 6, 2014 Pitcher22 Men's 50 39 posts | Marv19.... I love the fact that the numbers are flawed ...... The point here is the old guys who make the rules are not going to make a change because they don't think its proper again just my opinion but I know I didn't get a vote in this survey..... Just wish they would do a true poll and if it comes up the majority want 0-0 then that's what it will be but at least give us a fair shake |
| Oct. 6, 2014 Tim Millette 615 posts | We didn't get an extra five minutes at worlds. Our games were actually shortened to five innings. As I see it....the only guys crying about not going to 1-1!are the insecure guys scared they might lose a few points in their batting average at the expense of trying to get more innings in a game. |
| Oct. 6, 2014 Pitcher22 Men's 50 39 posts | Great point Tim as I previously stated I see NO REASON to to have to look at 5 pitches before you are put on notice you have 1 pitch left to hit , walk or make an out . It just seems guys forget the defense is trying to get you out that's why there are more people on the field other than just a pitcher |
| Oct. 6, 2014 SSUSA Staff 3482 posts | Just a couple of quick items to place some facts out there for clarification ... • Pitcher22 - The 2012 survey was sent electronically to all of the 17,592 people in the SSUSA Player Database who had provided us with an email address ... If you didn't vote, you either had not provided us with a valid email address, ignored the invitation to participate in the survey or aren't (or weren't) a registered player in late 2012 ... • Tim ... Fewer innings played in the Major+ are the result of that division's desire to play 7 runs per ˝-inning at bat than all other factors combined ... The five-inning games you are referring to at this year's World Masters resulted from the implementation of SSUSA Rulebook §11.1(1) on page 56 to recover from the loss of 40 games due to inclement weather on Friday night, an approach that worked exactly as designed ... We are probably due for another look at this issue on the 6-year cycle sometime in 2018 ... |
| Oct. 6, 2014 SS13 40 posts | Just my opinion, but I see no reason what so ever for there to be a 0-0 count. Make it a 1-1 count with a foul and please speed up the games. We rarely ever play 7 innings. ALOT of money is paid for shortened games at every tournament. |
| Oct. 6, 2014 Omar Khayyam 1357 posts | SSUSA is correct that the survey did not contrast older players versus younger players. It was a survey of ALL registered players; it just happened to break out that older players preferred the 0-0 count (and not for the bizarre concept that Tim Millette offered that they are trying to protect batting averages!). As an older team, we have played in 1-1 tournaments and didn't like it. The idea that guys are all standing there milking the pitch count to get a fat pitch just isn't the reality. In fact, the problem on my team, and most teams we play, is that the batters are so eager to hit and get the action going that they hit the first pitch they can reach! Since so many hitters DON'T wait out a full count, it doesn't matter whether it is 0-0 start or 1-1 count—the ball is in play before either count would reach the end. Why did my team not like the 1-1 count? Probably just too new…or didn't like the pressure…or were defenders of tradition. And the idea that older players are somehow more responsive to polls is unlikely. After that 2012 poll, I started asking around. I know the captains of five 65 and over teams, and I know about 3/4 of all the players on those teams. I asked at rec play and at tournaments and did not find a single person that was polled in this age group, including myself! I suspect that many of them registered 10 or 15 years ago and didn't have an email then or the email was obsolete over time. Whatever the reason, I never found one person who was polled! The results could have been even more skewed toward the traditional count. |
| Oct. 7, 2014 Hookdup 27 posts | Please change it to 1-1. The 40s Major+ took forever to get through games and they all started running way behind. The game should get to 7 innings every time, but with 0-0 it doesn't. |
| Oct. 7, 2014 Robo Men's 65 13 posts | I have a different take on how to speed up games. We do this in our league games. Teams play two offensive innings before leaving the field. The visitors play inning one, clear the bases after three outs or 5 runs, then play inning two. After that inning the visitors take the field. Think about how long it takes for an old right fielder to make his way back to the third base dugout. Think about all the warm up pitches. Then think about how much time is saved by cutting all those trips on and off the field in half. This works just fine in league play and we get 7 innings in all the time. |
| Oct. 7, 2014 taits Men's 65 4548 posts | Robo, It could save about 5-6 minutes. Not as ludicrous an idea as the imposed flip-flop rule though. |
| Oct. 7, 2014 Marv19 Men's 60 498 posts | As a side note: We use one and one with one to waste. That means if you foul one off you get the third strike. The big plus is over 90% of our games go 7 innings. |
| Oct. 7, 2014 stick8 1991 posts | I believe Omar correctly states most hitters don't wait out a full count when batting. Give 'em a senior bat and a lively ball, they want to hit!! By that alone games wouldn't necessarily go faster. In addition good teams will still get their share of hits & still score their share of runs. Defensive teams will still make errors in the field. And don't forget between innings teams will more often than not slowly drag in from the field and slowly drag out to the field--especially on a hot day. I don't believe playing 3-2 would make much if any difference in speeding up the senior game. USSSA switched from 4-3 to 3-2 in the early 1990's with the intent to speed up the game. They found that it did no such thing. |
| Oct. 7, 2014 taits Men's 65 4548 posts | Agree with Omar and that was same results I got in 2012 from poll I did. I hit first good pitch I like, be it 1st or after 3\2 count. Marv, having the one to waste helps in that issue but some don't use it. I'm still opposed to 1-1 start with or w\o 1 to waste. |
| Oct. 7, 2014 ffdonnie Men's 60 137 posts | Here we go again, Staff referencing the infamous survey that DID NOT go out to everyone. Staff may have sent it to everyone but not many got it. At least not many in N. Calif. I had asked several TEAMS (not people) at a NCSSA tourney a little while after it was supposed to have gone out, and two PEOPLE got it. To me, this survey is not valid. Would it have changed anything had it worked? I doubt it. Don. |
| Oct. 7, 2014 Omar Khayyam 1357 posts | ffdonnie, interesting finding from your discussions with players. My team is also in northern California. Seems unlikely that SSUSA, headquartered in northern California would have skipped their own region, but facts are facts. We play two innings back to back then switch to defense two innings in our winter rec leagues. It does speed up the game for all the reasons that Robo listed. Could be some drawbacks, I suppose, but our winter league guys love it. It is less tiring, for another reason to like it. |
| Oct. 7, 2014 SSUSA Staff 3482 posts | ffdonnie ... Registering for this message board by providing a (then) valid email address DOES NOT add that email address to your official SSUSA player record UNLESS you link them when you log in to access your player page ... The survey was sent only to the 17,592 email addresses from the player database since there are so many message board posters who are not registered SSUSA players ... To repeat from above: If you didn't vote, you either had not provided us with a valid email address, ignored the invitation to participate in the survey or aren't (or weren't) a registered player in late 2012 ... There is also a fourth possibility that may exist ... The email may have been diverted from your inbox to a Junk folder ... We may survey this issue again in a few years, but a statistically insignificant 0.1% difference in opinion over six years doesn't indicate any real change in preference by the membership since 2006 ... |
| Oct. 7, 2014 taits Men's 65 4548 posts | I got one & voted, am in CA. There are only about 150 that use this board or on occasion. Look at how many do not post any info on who or even there they are. so chances are good they didn't post email addys. |
| Oct. 7, 2014 ffdonnie Men's 60 137 posts | Well staff, as Omar put it, facts are facts. I have had the same valid email since I've been playing, starting in the 40's. I have no explanation for the missed emails, sorry. And I'm not making this shit up. Maybe it's one of the reasons the return % of the survey was low? But since Pitcher22 asked: Yes for 1-1 count. |
| Oct. 7, 2014 SSUSA Staff 3482 posts | ffdonnie ... We did some looking and you do have an email address in our player database that (redacted) contains: dono###@xxxxxxx.net ... If that was your email address in December, 2012, we have narrowed down why you didn't vote to one of only two possible options: [1] you received the survey email and chose not to respond; or [2] the email ended up in your junk folder instead of your inbox ... Neither of those options is our fault ... |
| Oct. 7, 2014 Pitcher22 Men's 50 39 posts | SSUSA Staff .... Simple solution send out a new survey and let the chips or should I say count fall where it will and poll 50-65 and 65+ have 2 polls but do it soon not in 2018 ..... It's a hot topic now ...... Like everything if it don't work or it don't help the game Change it back ........ This is a simple fix |
| Oct. 7, 2014 ffdonnie Men's 60 137 posts | Haha ok, you must be right. It's all me, I guess I am the only one who missed it. God has spoken, I am done. You do whatever you want any way. Sorry to waste everyone's time. |
| Oct. 7, 2014 SSUSA Staff 3482 posts | It's a hot topic every year with a tiny minority of message board posters. It may come up at the Annual Convention Rules Committee meets, but only if there is a motion to consider that can get a second. Currently, there is no compelling reason to re-poll so soon after the last time around, especially with the trending curve at making up 0.1% over a six year period. This is simply an annual exercise for the message board posters who disagree with the majority of players who chose to respond to the most recent survey. There are no plans to re-poll in the foreseeable future. |
| Oct. 7, 2014 Pitcher22 Men's 50 39 posts | Maybe after the reply that SSUSA Staff just posted maybe and I say maybe it's time for some NEW BLOOD in the executive office who want to see the game grow as well as be willing to maybe just maybe revisit a few rule changes more than every 6 years ..... Which I think is sad because every tournament I have had the pleasure of playing in is one of if not the best organization I have been associated with with that I say Thank You for a job well done...... I can see that this rule will not change . I wasn't trying ruffle any feathers was wanting to see what the thought was on a 1-1 rule change....... Keep up the good work guys |
| Oct. 7, 2014 donll 68 posts | I like the 0-0. I would rather have 4 quality at bats than 5 rushed at bats. I don't know what the big deal about 7 innings is either. Games usually last an hour and a half- thats long enough-I'm old. By the time you factor in BP two games you're playing about 4-5 hours a day or longer. hats plenty. |
| Oct. 7, 2014 Tim Millette 615 posts | A lot of seniors might have a chance to first hand see how 1-1 effects senior games... USSSA is making a move for the senior dollar and word is they are considering 1-1????? If trip does use the 1-1 down south in their first western worlds??? it would be great is SSUSA allows those players to share their experience with us. |
| Oct. 7, 2014 AJC Men's 60 217 posts | I'd like to see it go to. 1-1. Been used to that for years in ASA, games normally go the full 7 innings. With a 0-0 count, it seems like there is too much time wasted for the first strike before most batters are ready to swing. im sure the average innings played would go up slightly. I've seen more 5 inning games than 7 inning games. |
| Oct. 8, 2014 swing for the fences Men's 50 1224 posts | Anything to make Rev AKA the Human rain delay swing any quicker is a good thing! IMO ;-) |
| Oct. 8, 2014 taits Men's 65 4548 posts | NSA uses the 1-1 start count, go there. |
| Oct. 8, 2014 NYGNYY 215 posts | Not for the 1-1 start. I could see why pitchers like it however I believe it puts pressure on the pitchers 0-0. As for trying to speed the games up...how about a few less teams instead of over 500. Not so much pressure to get games in per field. One other point...the umps need to get ball into the game vs. waiting for someone to throw back a foul ball etc. Another crazy thought is to pay the umps based upon innings played...I am sure that would speed up the game |
| Oct. 8, 2014 rr3 Men's 60 9 posts | We use 1 - 1 count all the time in local tourneys and in our local league and pick up Tuesdays. Greatly speeds up the game. Have been to many SSUSA tourneys where we travelled far only to play 5 inning games with a 0-0 count. It makes no sense. In slow pitch if you can't hit a pitch when given 2 looks at a strike, you need to play golf. I know lots of players are sick an tired of paying big money to travel only to get 5 inning games at SSUSA tournaments. |
| Oct. 9, 2014 Pitcher22 Men's 50 39 posts | Just a question to anybody at SSUSA STAFF...... How many new members has SSUSA acquired sense the last poll and at what cost or harm would it be to explore this issue now ........Thank you for your time on this issue |
| Oct. 9, 2014 southernson 280 posts | SSUSA tournaments are the only ones we play in that use a 0-0 count. The only ones.... |
| Oct. 9, 2014 SSUSA Staff 3482 posts | New enrollments annually are coming in at about the same pace and age mix as they did between 2006 and 2012, during which time there was only a nominal growth rate of 0.1% trending in favor of the 1-1 count ... This issue was last raised at the 2012 Rules Committee Sessions during the Annual Convention in Mesquite, NV ... Here is the relevant section from the Official Minutes of that session: RULEBOOK § 6.2 – PITCH COUNT – The annual discussion of implementing the “1-1" starting pitch count occurred. • ACTION: MOTION TO TABLE PASSED 8-3 – SSUSA Staff was instructed to prepare a membership preference survey, to be completed and tabulated by the end of December, on this issue for study and potential action in a Special Session by Telephone of the Rules Committee in early January. The result of that preference survey is as noted above in a prior post by us ... Presumably based on the results of that survey, there was no mention of the "1-1 Count" issue at the 2013 Rules Committee Sessions in Concord, NC ... Time will tell if the matter even comes up this time around in Tupelo, MS in early December ... The Rules Committee Sessions are open to public attendance and input by the membership, and you are most welcome to come and make a presentation ... Thanks for your interest ... |
| Oct. 9, 2014 swing for the fences Men's 50 1224 posts | if you want to speed up the game... go 1 -1 count with no second foul ball... My opinion is after 1hr 10 min of ball the outcome is figured out.. so if it's 4 inning or 7 the outcome is what it is.. I'm fine either way! |
| Oct. 11, 2014 Pitcher22 Men's 50 39 posts | SSUSA Staff so if I was to attend this meeting in December and was to bring this before the committee they would take a new poll to see if this was something that the members wanted....... Also just for my information how many people are on the rules committee and do they still currently play this kids game that we love and are so passionate about |
| Oct. 11, 2014 SSUSA Staff 3482 posts | Pitcher22 ... You would be most welcome to attend the sessions ... The format last year, and presumably this year, allowed for six hours of open public sessions, three hours each on Wednesday afternoon and Thursday morning ... The working sessions were Thursday afternoon and Friday morning, which are also open to the public, but only as observers ... Occasionally, voting members will solicit input from the public observers ... Your role as a public member would be to make a presentation to the Committee in the hopes it would be strong enough to persuade the Chairman to add that topic to the official Agenda ... Merely showing up will not guarantee any action by the Committee, on any topic ... The most effective manner to accomplish this is to present an orderly, logical and compelling reason why the Committee should revisit this topic so soon after the most recent polling showed an insignificant (at best) trending of 0.1% support for the "1-1 Count" over the previous six years ... The Committee also gratefully accepts formal correspondence by regular mail to our Home Office and/or by email to info@seniorsoftball.com with the words "Rules Committee" in the Subject line ... NOTE: Message Board posts are excluded from Agenda consideration by the Rules Committee due to the generally unregulated and anonymous nature of the posters, many of whom are not registered players ... Regarding the Committee membership ... From last year's Official Minutes ... Members not currently playing are in italic font ... • Bill Ruth (WA - SSUSA President - Chairman), Terry Hennessy (CA - SSUSA CEO), Fran Dowell (CA - SSUSA Executive Director), Cal Allison (FL), David Barnes (NV - LVSSA), Michael Boone (NJ), Don Brooks (TX), Dave Dowell, National Director (CA), George Fernandes (NV - LVSSA), Jerry Jackson (IL), Randy Rowe (MO), Otis Rowland (CA/OK) • Committee members unable to attend: Carl Gustafson (CA), Dale McWhorter (AL), Rick Seifman, National U.I.C. (AZ) and Joe Yacano, National Director (IL) The public member participants were: Ron Grassi, National Director (WA), Michael Koch (NC), Tim McElroy, Regional Director (MD), Donna McGuire, Regional U.I.C. (MO) and Chuck Sharkey (NY). We welcome your participation under whatever method fits your circumstances ... |
| Oct. 11, 2014 Lecak Men's 60 1026 posts | Pttcher22 I can vouch for attending the meeting. About 10 years ago myself and another gentleman attended the meeting in Tucson we wanted to pitch the 40 division. SSUSA at the time had a sparsely attended 40 tournament more as a side show. We got an audience in front of all the associations including UTRIP, ASA, SPA and SSUSA. Our proposal was to offer the division full time including ratings, and offering memberships. We got laughed out except for one SSUSA. ASA at the time was the king of the 40 division. In 2005 I think we had 5 or 6 teams in the 40's this year it was probably their fastest growing division and probably had well over 50 teams. They obviously listened. If you want the 1-1 count do what they told in the post we did and it worked. |
| Oct. 18, 2014 Curly Bill Men's 70 1 posts | I agree with that! |
| Oct. 18, 2014 garyheifner 649 posts | The 0-0 count is absurd. I once again traveled to Vegas and on to Mesquite and the Huntsman games to play an endless number of "5' & "6" inning games. Endless # of hitters who took one or two strikes before hitting. I was told that California, which has a huge number of players, are the ones holding the vote power to keep the 0-0. Drives me nuts that we play 0-0 at the worlds and in every qualifier we play in, the TD uses a 1-1 count. Why would they use a 1-1 count? Let me guess. The tournament stays on time and we get "7" that's Seven innings. |
| Oct. 19, 2014 LP 317 posts | someone tell where I'm wrong but regardless of a o-o count or a 1 & 1 count, there is a time limit so if you play a 5 or 6 or 7 inning game it's not the count that causes the games to run behind. if I'm paying to play in a tournament $400 OR $700 I don't want to be rushed at the plate because the T.D.'s want to hurry teams through like cattle. At the worlds you play 65 or 70 minute games then the open inning.And again there is a TIME limit. |
| Oct. 19, 2014 Pitcher22 Men's 50 39 posts | LP just from the sounds of it you seem to be one of the guys who is standing at the plate looking for that perfect pitch ......might as well put it on a T for you..... I mean no disrespect in that comment but let's try and speed the game up just a bit....... Last time I checked its still pitched UNDERHAND .... Right ???? |
| Oct. 19, 2014 LP 317 posts | not the perfect pitch but I do look for the one that I like, if the second baseman is playing to much towards second or there's a big hole between third and short etc. etc. I wait till the pitcher puts it where I want it, if possible. |
| Oct. 19, 2014 Pitcher22 Men's 50 39 posts | LP I will say this as a pitcher I'm going to do my best to get you to hit my pitch hit into my defense it's my job as a pitcher to get you out ...... Pitching cookies for you to T off on is not part of the game plan that is one reason I would prefer a 1-1 count the game is still underhanded so it's not like I can throw a 100 mph heater by you...... Just food for thought........ Do you think maybe they changed the Home run rule to maybe take just swing for the fences and walk to first out of the game now you have to learn how to hit ....... Aka play the game |
| Oct. 19, 2014 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | mmmm...how many still play young guy ball...if you do you will be playing 1-1 count as they all are doing that now and have been for a few years.....what is really wrong with a 1-1 count...oh i see...some superstars want the perfect pitch to drive....since it is already a hitters game why do they need even more of an advantage....let the pitcher in the game and have him/her become part of it instead of them just being a pitching machine for the batters......i don't care if it does or don't speed the game up...lets have a 1-1 count..... |
| Oct. 20, 2014 Marv19 Men's 60 498 posts | LP, Here is how tournaments get off time with as you call it a "time limit". The game is in the fifth. Its just one out in and time expires. Its now 65 minutes. The umpire calls the next inning the open inning. It takes another 12 minutes to finish the 5th for one reason or another. No one is rushed because the next inning is the open. 5th inning ends. Now its 77 minutes in. This will be hard to believe but I witnessed this first hand. Its takes 47 minutes to finish the open inning (20+ runs for each team) Plus every batter waited to get a strike in the open. sometimes two. 47 min added to 77 = 124. So you're now 34 minutes over the 90 minutes allotted for the game slot. Its hard to make up the 34 minutes when most take a strike in the open. More often than not the rest of the games go over their time limits. At the end of the day your 1 to 2 hours behind using this scenario. Its not the necessarily the time limit its the open innings where you lose the time. 1 and 1 speeds up the game because when you get into the batters box you're now more aggressive (you called it rushed) than passive. It works for us and I have lots of managers tell me don't you dare go back to 0 and 0. Granted its mostly the younger teams (under 60) but in our demographic there are more younger teams than older. |
| Oct. 20, 2014 SSUSA Staff 3482 posts | Marv19 ... Other "tournament delay factors" include lack of readiness by teams (showing up 1 minute before scheduled game time instead of 30 minutes as rule mandated), managers not having game cards ready to go, uncertainty and general poor management of courtesy runner staging, umpires chatting too much during/between games, infield practice between ˝-innings at bat, throwing down to second after (unnecessary) warm-up pitches, directors not up to speed on seeding results math, players not hustling in and out between ˝-innings at bat and teams going into "super-slow-motion" mode as soon as the top of the 6th inning arrives, knowing that it's a guaranteed 7-inning game, to name a few ... On a 1:30 time block schedule structure, there is ample time to play a full 7 innings without resort to depriving the offense of a 0-0 count ... If restricting the offense is the desired method of getting a full 7 innings, the simplest solution is just dropping down to 2 outs per ˝-inning at bat! (JUST KIDDING ... sorta) |
| Oct. 20, 2014 DoubleL10 Men's 70 907 posts | Dave, you summed it up nicely! Alternatively, we could just go to "1-pitch" and that will definitely speed up the game! 45-minute game slots could become the norm! Now, for those who do not know me, I am stating this tongue-in-cheek! |
| Oct. 20, 2014 LP 317 posts | Marv19 it wouldn't make any difference with a 0-0 or 1-1 count with the game going long if you have and open inning with your scenario . Also Pitcher22 I pitch to and I don't want to have to gut ball pitch till I have to if nibbling at the edges don't work. |
| Oct. 20, 2014 Pitcher22 Men's 50 39 posts | Just a quick question LP what age division and class do you play...... Just curious |
| Oct. 20, 2014 Pitcher22 Men's 50 39 posts | Actually any one who is opposed to the 1-1 count what age and level ball do you play ...... Not a judgement just a curiosity to see where it stands as a whole...... Thank you all |
| Oct. 21, 2014 SSUSA Staff 3482 posts | Pitcher22 ... About 20+/- messages into this thread, there is a link posted by us (on 10/06/14) to the data analysis from the membership survey done less than two years ago ... With the support for the 1-1 count trending at that time upward at the rate of 0.1% over six years, that data will be relevant today ... You will notice immediately that respondents favoring either side of the proposition is geographically and age definitive ... Due to the generally anonymous and unregistered (as players) composition of this forum, Message Board commentary is disregarded by the SSUSA Rules Committee on this, or any other, topic ... |
