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Online now: 5 members: Eazy, Flava 21, John Johnson, TABLE SETTER 11, inzerillo; 92 anonymousDiscussion: USA Championship seeding game
| Posted | Discussion |
| Oct. 10, 2014 Dbax Men's 65 2101 posts | USA Championship seeding game The automatic 1 and 2 seeding of the teams playing in the USA Championship game needs to change for 2015. As it is right now, in some divisions it is a joke. As an example, in women's 50's, the teams playing in the games and automatically earning the top two seeds, only qualified for the game because they were the only teams playing in the east and west national tournaments. Any other divisions experience this? |
| Oct. 10, 2014 STL0 Men's 60 231 posts | In Men's 50 Majors, Team USA won a 3 team tournament (East) and obtained the #1 seed in the brackets, which gave them a first round bye. They went on to lose their next 2 so they were 0-2 in tournament play. Cornerstone won a 9 team tournament (West) and obtained the #2 seed. They went 3-2 in tournament play. I did not see either team play so I cannot comment other than those are the facts for how they performed with respect to wins and losses. My opinion is that all of the teams that played were capable of beating any other team so who knows whether the seeding of those teams is reasonable or not. I'm sure the seeding benefit is used to try to draw teams to Eastern and Western championships which apparently didn't work in the East but weather may have been a factor there. |
| Oct. 10, 2014 Sunshine1949 Men's 65 58 posts | What needs to change is for teams in the East to take advantage of a great venue and a central location and come play.....I don't believe there is any restriction on entry. |
| Oct. 10, 2014 d45 160 posts | We finished 4-0 in seeding and got a 4th seed. The teams playing for the East/West championship were 2-2 and 3-1. They got the 1-2 seed. If seeding is going to be done that way, why not just show up Tue. evening and start bracket play on Wed. and forfeit your seeding games since there is no reward anyway for playing in the seeding games. Why does the East/West game get a 1-2 bye? It has nothing to do with the teams playing big $$ to play in the Vegas Worlds? If you don't go to the Westerns/Easterns you are essentially penalized because there is no chance to play for a #1-#2 seed in Vegas the way the system is set up now. |
| Oct. 10, 2014 d45 160 posts | Now that I have given my opinion on the seeding, I want to congratulate the teams in our division. The teams we played exhibited true sportsmenship. That is what makes Senior Softball so much fun. Outside of the seeding format, I want to congratulate SSUSA for putting on this huge under taking of making the Vegas Worlds one of the best venues of Senior Softball anywhere. Thank you directors, and SSUSA staff!! |
| Oct. 10, 2014 SSUSA Staff 3490 posts | Here's a portion of our August 14th post in this topic ... Emphasis is added for this re-post and to refresh your memory on the specifics ... __________ • The winner of each USA National game, in divisions having five (5) or more teams, earns the #1 Seed for bracket play, and the loser earns the #2 Seed. There are two reasons for this: The USA National games are pre-determined and not part of the randomly generated seeding play; and, they are not played under the same time limits as other seeding round games. With the first tie-breaker after head to head being aggregate runs allowed, a guaranteed seven-inning game may put both of the participating teams at an unfair disadvantage, especially if the game goes to extra innings. In 2012 in Phoenix, one USA National game ended 30-26 in nine innings. The winner finished 2-0 and was seeded #9 (of the nine unbeaten teams in the division). The runner-up also lost their second game and was seeded #29 of 29. NOTE: Teams eligible to play in a USA National game that does not occur due to lack of an opponent will not automatically receive a #1 Seed. They will be subject to the same seeding criteria as all other teams in their division. |
| Oct. 10, 2014 PSmit 37 posts | My team also went 2-0 in seeding and got the #5 seed and had to play at 7;30 am sat. morning when higher seeds didn't play until later in the day. I had a problem understanding that one. On another note did any other teams have a problem with runners not sliding or avoiding on doubleplay attempts. My middle infielders were run into around 10 times in the 6 games that we played without an umpire saying anything about it. with that being said I agree with d45 on his second post. Doubleplay classic 55 Major |
| Oct. 10, 2014 neck10 714 posts | I guess we cant be lazy anymore and must play in the east nationals |
| Oct. 10, 2014 Dbax Men's 65 2101 posts | SSUSA, the problem was the teams that played in the USA games got there because they were the only 50's team playing in the East, and playing in the Western Nationals. They didn't earn anything. |
| Oct. 11, 2014 Sunshine1949 Men's 65 58 posts | It wasn't their fault no one showed up, anyone can enter, they understood the importance of the tournament and spent the dollars and the time to participate, which would probably be between $3,000-$4,000 for all the players costs....they earned it because they showed up and made the investment. If we could get teams to show to a great venue and compete then they would know where they stand and if you can't finish 1 or 2 at the Eastern you really have no business going to Vegas to compete. I don't understand when the Eastern teams develope their schedule why this tournament isn't included. So with that said don't blame the team that made the commitment, and if your team is considering Vegas go to the Eastern and see if you have the talent to compete before investing thousand's of dollars on travel, unless of course you our going for the social experience. |
| Oct. 11, 2014 Enviro-Vac Men's 65 489 posts | Sunshine - you nailed it! |
| Oct. 11, 2014 Dbax Men's 65 2101 posts | I think that is buying a number 1 or 2 seed. The whole idea should be scrapped for 2015. |
| Oct. 11, 2014 SSUSA Staff 3490 posts | Quick hitters ... • The structure of seeding the USA National Championship game participants into the top two slots in brackets of five or more teams is NOT going to change in the foreseeable future ... This is a Tournament Administration decision made at the Home Office and not within the purview of the Rules Committee ... • Only four teams "ran the table" from the #1 Seed position in their respective brackets after winning the USA National Game and being unbeaten in pool play: MBA Elite (23-team 60-Major), Hamel Builders/Superior Softball (9-team 60-Major+), Florida Investment Properties (6-team 80-Major) and Dreamgirlz (7-team 50-Women) ... • Teams that skip the Eastern or Western National Championships have made a decision that will not be allowed to adversely affect teams that did choose to attend (even if it's only one team) ... Everyone knows what is at stake, but it's sort of like the Lottery advertising you see in a lot of places: You can't win if you don't play ... • The format of the USA National Championship games, with opponents being specifically arranged (and not randomly selected) and playing a full seven innings instead of "on the clock", will not be allowed to adversely affect the seeding of the participating teams under any tie-breaker provisions ... |
| Oct. 11, 2014 Omar Khayyam 1357 posts | The State Roofing Systems team won the Western Nationals, but when they got to Vegas, the Eastern Champions did not appear, so they won the USA National Championship by forfeit. When it came to seedings, however, the Roofing team did not get a 1 seed, but got a 4 seed on the basis of their 3-1 record in pool play. How is it the Western champions' fault that their opponent didn't appear any more than when only one team in a division plays in Eastern Championships? Turns out that a 4 seed was appropriate to their skill level in this year's tournament, so they didn't complain about it, but it would have been nice if they received a later game as the #1 seed and also played a weaker team to advance toward a potential championship. |
| Oct. 11, 2014 Dbax Men's 65 2101 posts | Omar, I agree. They should have been the number 1 seed. Going by SSUSA's thinking, if you can get in the USA game, just by showing up in the East or Western Nationals, why get penalized if one half of the USA game does not show up? |
| Oct. 12, 2014 SSUSA Staff 3490 posts | Not a penalty situation ... If the other half of the USA game doesn't show up, the team that did is involved in the seeding game process exactly like all other teams ... They are scheduled against "random" opponents and all of their seeding games are played on the same format as the rest of the bracket pool ... We DO give them the US National Champions 1st place award package, but the #1 Seed is not part of that package ... This is not a difficult concept to grasp ... |
| Oct. 13, 2014 mnmasters38 Men's 60 19 posts | Ok, what about the Midwest National Champions. they get no chance at getting in on the USA games. How can you have a USA National Champions game and not include all National tournament champions. |
| Oct. 13, 2014 SSUSA Staff 3490 posts | The Midwest Championships is simply a "Qualifier" and not a "National" type event ... There are only four "Qualifying Roster" events, where a roster from a previous event is the basis for entry ... Those are the Eastern and Western Nationals, the World Masters Championships and the Tournament of Champions ... The Easterns and Westerns are a notch above the "regular" qualifiers in the tournament hierarchy and, accordingly, are the only two "National" events that feed champions into the USA National Championship games at the World Masters ... |
| Oct. 13, 2014 local 169 posts | How many times have you gone to a BIG tournament and end up playing 2 very good teams in the pool play ? Well it happens and sometimes marginal teams get to play weak teams and end up 2-0. I suggested a while back that the teams playing for the National Championship receive 1 and 2 seeds. They deserve it ! We have been #14 seed out of 14 teams and won a major and we have been #1 seed and never made it to Sunda With the 3 game guarantee in Bracket play what's to complain about. If your not playing on Sunday it wasn't meant to be. |
| Oct. 14, 2014 joel 1975 131 posts | do nt complain play in the east west series then you have just as good a chance of getting number one seed!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
| Oct. 15, 2014 skid7 Men's 50 10 posts | It is not easy for midwest teams to go to east or west tournaments due to costs. What would it take to make Midwest Championship a "National" type event? |
| Oct. 19, 2014 paul0784 Men's 60 218 posts | Dbax, in the 60AAA the number 1 seed got a 9:00 AM Sat instead of a 5:00 PM game Friday. There were 33 teams so it wasn't like anyone got a bye or anything. The seeds are just a number and determines when you play your first game is all. But it is a great perk if you play in the Easterns or Westerns to know you have either the 1 or 2 seed just by play AND WINNING. We have no control over who attends but it is a great tournament on the East coast. There was 6 teams in the East and there was also a lot of rain but we go to this tournament every year and it just so happens this is probably the best venue on the East Coast for Senior Softball. The complex is great and it is usually run meticulously. We ended up with the number 1 seed and played a great Minnesota team in our first game which was the 33 seed. There was no bargain by getting the number 1 seed except playing Sat morning instead of Friday evening. We didn't gain anything by playing the 33 seed cause they were a very good team that maybe had a tough Friday? So this thread is right that this perk was probably set up to attract more teams to the Eastern and Western tournament but I think it is a nice perk to get it and also a trip to the TOC. Well done SSUSA we believe this is a good thing. I think I might have brought this up a couple of years back on a post anyway. |
| Oct. 19, 2014 Dbax Men's 65 2101 posts | Paul, I don't disagree with any of that. All I'm saying is in the women's 50's there was only one team entered in the east and one team entered in the west. They got the number one and two seeds without winning anything. |
| Oct. 19, 2014 paul0784 Men's 60 218 posts | But what I am saying is that the seeding 1 and 2 doesn't really give a big advantage and besides when talking about the women there were on 17 total teams in the womens bracket all ages combined as opposed to any mens bracket with 20 or more in it? All I was eluding to is that getting that perk for playing and Winning the Eastern or Western Nationals is kind of another little trump card like the berth to the TOC for doing so. This is only the second year this has been offered and I believe it is a good thing and might catch on and make the National tournaments a great venue with extra perks for winning. Good job SSUSA! |
| Oct. 20, 2014 Sunshine1949 Men's 65 58 posts | So I think here's your options, play East/West for 1 or 2 seed, lobby to change the rule, and if you go to East/West and don't win go to Vegas and play for seeds 3 and above and of course you always have the option to stay if home. . |
| Oct. 20, 2014 Dbax Men's 65 2101 posts | Another option....don't award a birth to the USA National game if they were the only team entered in the East or West Nationals. |
| Oct. 20, 2014 Garocket Men's 55 259 posts | That is why I hate tournaments that furnish the ball. You never know what you are going to have to hit. Especially late in the day when the balls have been hit 100s of times. Let the TD state the type ball he is using and allow teams to hit thier own ball as long as it is the type the TD is using. If he has them to sell then so be it . I had ratehr spend 25 or 30 dollars on bals and get to hit decent ball. at $5.00 each let each player pay for a ball that would give you 12-15 new balls to use for the weekend. |
| Oct. 20, 2014 SSUSA Staff 3490 posts | Rocket ... Maybe a misfire on what thread you were going to post into??? |
| Oct. 20, 2014 the wood Men's 65 1123 posts | We went to the Western Nationals and beat our only M+ opponent in a 2 of 3 series. We were given the # 1 or # 2 seed depending upon how well we did in the National Championship Game. We were smoked in it so we earned the # 2 seed and Hamel Builders received the # 1. They went 4-0 in the seeding round (incl Natl Champ game) and we went 3-1. We had 6 teams in our division so SSUSA honored the seeding agreement. If we had 4 or less teams in it, all seeding bets were off. I take issue with this. In our session we would have played 4 seeding games whether we had 4 or 6 teams in our division. Only in a 5 team bracket would we play each team once in seeding. Any more or less (than 5) assures that we won't all play each other or that me would play some teams more than once (in seeding). This creates its own form of imbalance. The teams and players perceive the automatic seeding as a reward for winning the National (east or west). SSUSA does not consider it a reward... I really don't care about the semantics of this. SSUSA created the automatic seeding to avoid penalizing a team in the tie breaker system. I get this but contend that the reduced number of teams (in a LV bracket) should not over rule the automatic seeding. I'm told that this discrepancy will be addressed in the December rules meeting. I hope that it is. We do not have many 65 M+ teams to play and one of them will probably be moved down. The winner of the 65 M division will get moved up but they've stated that they will break up instead... the net effect of this is that we're back down to 5. There were 3 other 65 teams moved up to M+ this season but none of them were in LV. Once again, it isn't how many potential teams they are, it's how many teams actually participate. We had 6 this year but this seems to be an anomaly. BW |
| Oct. 21, 2014 Brock Men's 80 84 posts | I would like to address the comments about teams not having the finances to attend the Eastern or Western National tournaments because they're on the coasts. It's my understanding that the Mississippi River divides west from east. The last two years the Western Nationals have been in the Sacramento, CA area and the Eastern Nationals have been in Raleigh, NC for a number of years now. This year in the Western Nationals, all but a hand full of teams were from the West Coast - CA, OR, WA and BC. There were several Scrap iron teams from Colorado attending but NO teams from south, north or east of Colorado that I remember and there are a lot of teams in this area west of the Mississippi River that won't go to Sacramento but would go to Aurora, CO. Just check where the teams came from in 2012. In 2012 the Western Nationals were in Aurora, CO. We had 89 teams. I was hoping for 100; Terry H was hoping for 50. Terry made the comment then that the tournament had the capacity to grow to 150 teams. For those of you that played there then or since then you know the fields are great, the weather is nice and there have been no complaints from anyone playing there that I have heard. The Rocky Mountain Championships that started in 2013 had 41 teams which increased to 51 teams this year and we're hoping for at least 60 to 70 in 2015. Back to the Western Nationals. How do you grow a tournament to 150 teams when you pull the plug the following year because you have a better offer from somewhere else. Terry didn't like me mentioning it being a money situation then so I won't repeat it here but a TRUE western or eastern national tournament should be more centrally located so ALL teams in the region might be able to afford to attend. However, I was told by a SS USA official at the Rocky Mountain Championships this past summer that the Western Nationals will never be in Aurora, CO again. Time will tell. |
| Oct. 21, 2014 Dbax Men's 65 2101 posts | I agree! Would rather go to Aurora / Denver instead of Sacramento anytime! |
| Oct. 26, 2014 skid7 Men's 50 10 posts | I also agree with Aurora as being a national tournament. Kansas City as well. Why can't a national tourney be added some where in the midwest? Keep the Western and Eastern where they are but give teams in middle of country the same option. |
