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Online now: 5 members: Bump29, Mike Kinard, TABLE SETTER 11, dalberghetti, softball4b; 103 anonymousDiscussion: Pitching
| Posted | Discussion |
| Oct. 29, 2014 Doc11 4 posts | Pitching If a pitcher delivers a pitch with both feet outside the pitcher's box, is the umpire's call "illegal pitch" or "dead ball"? |
| Oct. 29, 2014 stick8 1991 posts | In this case the umpire is to hold his right arm out to the side and yell out "illegal" while the pitch is in the air. If the batter chooses to swing at it it's game on. |
| Oct. 29, 2014 BruceAZ Men's 70 155 posts | We had a similar call in the Worlds a few weeks ago that almost cost us the game. Our pitcher was outside the pitcher's box when he pitched and the umpire called it a "dead ball". The batter swung and flew out for the 3rd out of the inning but since the umpire called "dead ball" the out didn't count. They went on the score 3 more runs and got their 5 for the inning. If he would have made the right call, "illegal pitch" and the batter swung it's a live ball and the 3rd out. Luckily we scored enough in the open to overcome his mistake. |
| Oct. 30, 2014 Sparky.1 Men's 75 284 posts | First of all, the "correct" Umpire signal is done by holding the "left" arm (not the right) out and vocalizing "Illegal Pitch" as soon as the pitch hits the air. Other than that, yes the batter proceeds to hit the ball, it's game on. In my 3-years of watching Senior Softball in all of the various Senior Organizations as a Sponsor, I have seen very few Umpires that have used good field mechanics and further, quite a few that have had little if any direction/training (a.k.a. District clinics, etc.). |
| Oct. 30, 2014 Sparky.1 Men's 75 284 posts | and before someone gets any ideas, I am a former State Certified Umpire for both the ASA and the USSSA and also worked a couple of Nationals as well as serving as UIC (Umpire-In-Chief) for 14 years with the Eaton Rapids, MI Softball Association over and above my career as a Manager/Player. |
| Oct. 30, 2014 TimMcElroy 942 posts | I see two potentially different scenarios here: 1) If the pitcher had both feet outside of the pitcher's box before beginning his wind-up / delivery, we have "NO PITCH" The umpire should immediately vocalize this call and put both arms in the air killing any subsequent action. Effectively, a ball was pitched during the suspension of play. (BruceAZ, if this is what your umpire witnessed in LV then it was the correct call). 2) If the pitcher began his wind-up / delivery with at least some portion of one foot inside the pitcher's box and ended with nothing in the box when the ball left his hand, then we have an "ILLEGAL PITCH" The umpire should immediately vocalize this call and lift / extend his left arm out to the side (parallel to the ground). If a batter swings at an illegal pitch, then the result of the play stands. |
| Oct. 30, 2014 B.J. 1105 posts | Tim.....I disagree with you on the part of calling a no pitch if pitcher has both feet outside the pitching box.....here is the rule on what to do for illegal pitches....6.11(1) • PENALTY FOR ILLEGAL PITCHES....Any infraction of §6.3 through §6.11 is an illegal pitch. A ball shall be called on the batter. Runners may not advance. EXCEPTION: If a batter swings at any illegal pitch, it is nullified and the result of the play stands. |
| Oct. 30, 2014 stick8 1991 posts | Tim, I with B.J. on this one. I don't believe it's a dead ball. The only rule on the pitching box in the SSUSA umpire rule book is in Section 6, rule 6.4 part B, it states: "the pitcher must take a position with at least one foot in contact with the pitchers box" In 6.11(1) it states "any infraction of 6.3 to 6.11 is an illegal pitch. A ball shall be called on the batter. Runners may not advance. EXCEPTION: if a batter swings at any illegal pitch it is nullified and the result of the play stands. In Doc11's scenario that's an illegal pitch in SSUSA. Umpire puts out his left arm (thank you for the correction sparky.1!!) and yells out "illegal" while the pitch is in the air. In USSSA umpires do not call "illegal" while the pitch is in the air. They wait until the catcher catches it and then state "unfairly delivered". If the batter swings at it, it's game on. I'm not familiar with ASA rule on this. |
| Oct. 31, 2014 Sparky.1 Men's 75 284 posts | The only time a "Dead Ball" vocalization is used is "Dead Ball Out-of-Play" call when the ball leaves the foul line. The call is mandatory when a game is being played on a field without fences down the foul lines. The "Dead Ball" vocalization call has NOTHING to do with a PITCHED BALL! |
| Oct. 31, 2014 Garocket Men's 55 259 posts | I would have to agree with Tim, IF the pitcher never got in the pitching box. By what you guys are saying if a pitcher is standing on second base after a Time out he could pitch from there. It would be illegal but the batter could swing at it if he wants to? Lets put a little common sense in it, The pitcher should not have been allowd to pitch (Dead Ball) if he had never got into a legal pitching position. However I do agree on an illegal pitch if the batter swings it is all bets off, what happens happens. The way it it described it should have been a no pitch. |
| Oct. 31, 2014 Sparky.1 Men's 75 284 posts | stick8.....ASA is as soon as possible once it leaves the Pitcher's Hand) Garocket................A Pitcher must be in the Pitcher's area to deliver...Period! If an Umpire is that weak or lacks that knowledge, said Umpire should be immediately removed from any future assignments.......and once again, "Dead Ball" has NOTHING to do with Pitching and/or a Pitched Ball. |
| Oct. 31, 2014 John Mc 2 posts | I am new to this forum, but I agree with Tim. If the pitcher is never in the pitcher's box, then the umpire can't/won't put the ball in play. If the ball is not in play, then we can't have a pitch. In Tim's first scenario, that means NO PITCH. |
| Oct. 31, 2014 ju25 Men's 60 236 posts | This happened to me last night in a USSSA playoff game. Pitcher was standing at least 10' behind the rubber, so I stepped out and told the ump he was out of the box. He informed me that if he pitched from there he would call it a ball. I got back in the box and pitch was delivered from 10' away. I glanced back at ump to see if there was a signal(none) and he called a ball, deep. Didn't bother to say anything(didn't want to be a whiner), threw next pitch from same spot and it was outside so I took my base. No signal either pitch and nothing said to pitcher, who only did this that 1 at bat. In my experiance it is an illegal pitch, verbal in ASA, hand signal in USSSA, and both in Senior ball. Pitching rules are not enforced anymore, no presentation of the ball, coming to a stop before ball is delivered, and no 3' hump.(USSSA) |
| Oct. 31, 2014 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | i'm with rocket and tim on this.....its like letting the pitcher pitch when the batter hasn't got into the batters box.....how can it be anything but a no pitch if the pitcher has not started within the pitchers box..... |
| Oct. 31, 2014 stick8 1991 posts | Jimmy in your scenario it's a ball not because the pitch was deep or outside. The pitch is a ball because it was unfairly delivered!! It could have landed right behind the plate and it would still be a ball. I presume you had a one man for your playoff game? If so there is no signal the ump would use. If it's a two man the base umpire would put his arm out if he sees the pitcher is outside the pitching box delivering the pitch. |
| Oct. 31, 2014 B.J. 1105 posts | Guys again here is the rule...6.4 • BEFORE STARTING THE PITCH...B. The pitcher must take a position with at least one foot in contact with the pitcher's box. now if the pitcher fails to do so here is the call by the umpire....PENALTY FOR ILLEGAL PITCHES....Any infraction of §6.3 through §6.11 is an illegal pitch. A ball shall be called on the batter. Runners may not advance. EXCEPTION: If a batter swings at any illegal pitch, it is nullified and the result of the play stands...Pitchers many times do pitch from outside the box, the umpire is not a COACH he should not tell him that he is out of the box...he should just call ILLEGAL on the release of the pitch |
| Oct. 31, 2014 ju25 Men's 60 236 posts | Stick, I understand the ball call, but shouldn't he have said ball, illegal pitch, instead of ball, deep. I'm not sure that the pitcher was ever aware that he was in violation of the rules. I was the only one he did this to and it was only the one time at bat. Without any type of signal, how is the batter supposed to know he is gonna call the illegal pitch. |
| Oct. 31, 2014 B.J. 1105 posts | JU....in USSSA the umpire cannot say anything until after the pitch crosses the plate...putting the onus on the batter on wheteher or not to swing... if pitcher was off the rubber upon delivery then the umpire should say unfairly delivered pitch (ball) |
| Oct. 31, 2014 stick8 1991 posts | Jimmy your correct. What he should have called was "unfairly delivered" that's USSSA terminology. "Illegal" is used in ASA (as I just learned from sparky) & SSUSA. They both mean the same thing. You ask a good question. USSSA umps do use signals but only after the ball crosses the plate. That's the beauty of utrip, you never know what the ump will call!! Kind of scary though. As a batter you hope the ump knows the rules. Sadly, far too many don't. |
| Oct. 31, 2014 stick8 1991 posts | Fellas BJ is exactly correct. For further info refer to section 6 of the SSUSA rule book. For the record it doesn't matter if the pitcher starts out with one foot in the box and shifts outside the box or was not in the box before pitching. Both are illegal!! |
| Oct. 31, 2014 ju25 Men's 60 236 posts | I thought that USSSA was a hand signal, or is that just for pitches that are not in the 3-10' range ? Bench or on deck batter was supposed to let batter know. Used to be that way, has that changed? |
| Oct. 31, 2014 OZ40 549 posts | Right on Stick. The only bone I have to pick with U-Trip is in this area. The batter has to take a chance that A.) The umpire knows both the strike zone and the rule, & B.) That he (umpire) is playing close enough attention to the pitcher's mechanics to state "unfairly delivered" when the batter lets the pitch go by. Usually as for me, if it's a close pitch and I've got none to waste I'm swinging. |
| Oct. 31, 2014 Sparky.1 Men's 75 284 posts | As an idea for ALL of the current Senior Softball Associations. In today's age of computer technology, what about using a venue like "YouTube" to record the various "field mechanics & on-field hand & verbal signals" used in a specific Senior Softball Association for the Umpires working that Association. It would diffidently get the vast majority of Umpires on the "same page" for the "field mechanics & on-field hand & verbal signals" nation-wide or at the low-end minimum, give an Umpire the correct on-field procedures to actually see. For the sake of the Great Game of Slow-Pitch Softball however, a project like this for its full effect, should have a "mandatory" attachment for "all" Umpires working that specific Association since they are after-all, receiving payment for their performances. Sparky |
| Oct. 31, 2014 stick8 1991 posts | Jimmy there's no hand signal in utrip until the pitch crosses the plate. That's what helps distinguish utrip from the others. As I stated earlier in a 2man the base umpire can put his arm out if he sees the pitcher outside the pitching box delivering a pitch. But not many do that. |
| Oct. 31, 2014 stick8 1991 posts | Oz that's the beauty of USSSA!! Your last sentence sums it up perfectly. If it's close swing thy bat!! |
| Oct. 31, 2014 Sparky.1 Men's 75 284 posts | Totally agree with you "stick8", "Oz40" summed up a USSSA team's offensive philosophy! |
| Oct. 31, 2014 curty Men's 60 187 posts | what would you call this? batter in box, pitch thrown- legally by definition, batter hits ball, everybody does what they should( runners, fielders), resulting in 3 run triple. As all this transpired, the ump starts hollering "no pitch." he sends all back to where they started. Then warns pitcher that he will be thrown out of the game if he does this again! THIS HAPPENED IN "IF GAME @ Vegas. Curt Snow, Hanningtons 60 AAA. |
| Oct. 31, 2014 B.J. 1105 posts | if pitcher does what again???? |
| Oct. 31, 2014 curty Men's 60 187 posts | umpire was not looking. he was putting a ball away when the pitch was made. By the time he realised what was going on, the play was nearly over! |
| Oct. 31, 2014 Sparky.1 Men's 75 284 posts | The Umpire's day is finished and should be enrolled in "Basic Umpiring 101". How did this individual get qualified to work the World's? O'yea.......Quantity overs Quality! Welcome to Senior Softball. |
| Oct. 31, 2014 B.J. 1105 posts | I didn't see the play...but many times multiple balls are used in a game and one is returned after either a home run or a foul ball...the umpire will have his head down putting the ball in his ball bag... he should have killed the play after the batter made contact with the ball since he was standing right there..if he wasn't wearing a bag then sometimes the umpire will walk back to the backstop to put the extra balls in a ball drop or a box...if that happened the pitcher should have realized that and not pitched the ball....it this was a 2 umpire game the base umpire should have yelled no pitch after the release of the pitch....the plate umpire did the right thing, he didn't see the play so therefore he has to send everyone back... |
| Oct. 31, 2014 Sparky.1 Men's 75 284 posts | BJ....Can't sell that outlook.....A ball bag is worn on your side (depending upon right or left handed) and if you are not a "rookie", putting a ball in your bag does not required you to look down. If for any reason you need to suck air, take your hand and play in your ball bag, etc., you are the Umpire and you simply put both arms in the air and call "TIME" and control the game. Once again, the Umpire's day is finished and should be enrolled in "Basic Umpiring 101". How did this individual get qualified to work the World's? O'yea.......Quantity overs Quality! Welcome to Senior Softball. |
| Oct. 31, 2014 OZ40 549 posts | As a former U-Trip ump I always stated "TIME" when a play was completed or raised my hand palm toward the pitcher after a pitch was thrown. If an umpire does this he saves a lot of aggrevation. Why make things hard on yourself and open the door for arguements? |
| Oct. 31, 2014 Sparky.1 Men's 75 284 posts | Exactly my point and the overall level of Umpiring I have witnessed over the past 2-seasons of sponsoring ("Sparky" Mann Enterprises last season and "Banker & Mann" Softball Club this past season, it is one of the major reasons that I am no longer interested in sponsorship which is a shame since this is the only way I can actively participate in Softball being physically impaired. Have grown tired of watching Umpires in Senior Ball in all of the Associations that my sponsorship money provides a percentage of their game-rate, show a lack of hustle, lack of rule knowledge, little if any knowledge of "field mechanics & on-field hand & verbal signals", etc, I have lost count of the number of Umpires that did not carry a Plate Brush and used their foot to clean the mat. There have been numerous Umpires that did not use a "ball/strike/out" counter (guess they have a great memory...yea right). I have on several occasions sent emails to the National UIC for each of the Senior Associations including SSUSA on these concerns and to-date, surprise no response. Typical! |
| Nov. 1, 2014 stick8 1991 posts | Curty the way you describe that play the umpire was correct. It happened to me earlier this year when someone tossed me a foul ball that had been retrieved. My attention was diverted when the pitcher released a pitch. The batter took the pitch and since I didn't see it I couldn't call it a ball or a strike so it's "no pitch". |
