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Online now: 3 members: Matty507, RAO99, TABLE SETTER 11; 112 anonymousDiscussion: How to get more teams willing to play in the Major-plus division
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| Feb. 13, 2015 Maint11 7 posts | How to get more teams willing to play in the Major-plus division I believe most players would agree that not a lot of teams want to play in the Major-plus division. The two main reasons are: (1) their team doesn’t have enough homerun hitters to compete at that level, and/or (2) there are not enough teams, and you get tired of playing the same 1 or 2 teams in every tournament. I think SSUSA should go to the equalizer rule for the Major-plus division. That would make teams that aren’t loaded with power hitters (yet who are sent to the Major-plus division because they won the World Championship at the major division), the ability to be competitive at that level. It seems to me that if you had an equalizer rule that says that there is No Homerun Limit, and a team can hit as many homeruns as they are able….9, 10, even 15, as long as they do not go up more than 2 homeruns; or 3 homeruns on the other team. That way, if both teams are power hitting teams, both teams can keep hitting homeruns….but if one team is a power team, and the other is not because they are built around solid defense and great hitting rather than homerun hitting, both teams can still compete. The way it is now, only the homerun hitting teams can compete at Major-plus. Right now, if a team gets moved to Major-plus, that team has to either take a beating for 3 or 4 tournaments and then get moved back down to major (what’s the point in that) or, they have to start changing their roster and try to recruit a bunch of homerun hitters. Some teams don’t what to change their roster…they like the players they already have…players they’ve been playing with for years. A lot of teams just decide to disband. Again, the number of major-plus teams is ridiculously small and because of that, few teams want to play at that level. I just think the equalizer rule would make more teams willing to play major-plus….and it still works for the homerun hitting teams, cause they would have unlimited homeruns instead of the current 9 homeruns…a win-win for everybody. With more teams at major-plus, it would be a much better and more competitive division to play in rather than "Purgatory". I know a rule change like this, if it were to happen at all, takes years to get done, but it's worth considering...either some rule like this, or complete elimination of the major-plus division and combine major and major-plus, as one division. Just wondering…what do others think? D. Watson MBA ELITE 60 |
| Feb. 13, 2015 Tim Millette 615 posts | Limit the amount of returning players to 6 for national World winners until the champions reach the next age group. Turning over the top teams each year works in all other senior divisions...it would help the major plus program also. |
| Feb. 14, 2015 FOFO Men's 60 284 posts | give them unlimited home runs and longer time limits while keeping home runs over the limit as outs in major. Make it more appealing . |
| Feb. 14, 2015 Jawood Men's 50 943 posts | I see what you're saying, FOFO, but wouldn't that make a Major team not what to get moved up even more? I would say just make Major-plus unlimited rules in everything ... HR's, runs per inning, time limit and players outside the borders. Just don't make Major teams move up to that division providing they play with HR limits, runs per inning limits, time limits and no players outside their bordering state. |
| Feb. 14, 2015 Tim Millette 615 posts | I go along with jarwoods idea as long as you allow Bumped ring wing Major teams to return to the major division with no more the 6 players. |
| Feb. 14, 2015 Tim Millette 615 posts | Ring winning major teams |
| Feb. 14, 2015 swing for the fences Men's 50 1224 posts | What ever you do, it should not just be a couple of teams moving up.. For the record, it did look like SSUSA got it right last year. My Warriors team wasn't the only team to get moved up last year! Also, it shouldn't be done until after the final tourney of the year... Never in the middle of the year! IMO |
| Feb. 14, 2015 PJ3P Men's 50 94 posts | Having played for 3 years in the Florida Half Century [unlimited hrs] and having played a few SSUSA type tournaments let me say this. It is ridiculously easier to hit with a 4-3 count instead of a 3-2 with no extra. A 3-2 count and umpires who can't tell 15' from 12' when you have a strike on you and the games get much more competitive. Even in the Super A division [top 5 of 85] of the Half Century I would bet that the teams average 10-12 home runs a game [or less] over a 4 game weekend. I can absolutely guarantee you that with a 4-3 count that number would be more like 18-20. |
| Feb. 15, 2015 Perl 212 posts | I've played Senior Softball for 13 years and ideas to get more Major+ teams has been a topic for all those years. I think ISSA has the right solution, combine Major and Major+. Have an HR limit, say 6 and a push and use the bordering states rule. With a HR limit many Major teams can compete with + teams. This would force teams to be built on a combination of defense, basehitting and HR power. This would also make for larger brackets for the upper division. |
| Feb. 15, 2015 Tim Millette 615 posts | Perl, I think it will be great to see how many SSUSA major teams are pulled away, and decide to support ISSA instead... I have to think??? There will be few to no SSUSA teams leaving their major world program to join the merged ISSA thing. I am sure SSUSA will be paying attention IF..the merger thing has any legs. BUT...I doubt very much that any Major team planning on supporting SSUSA are going to leave to get beat up on by the elite Plus teams. Sorry...I just don't think the merger thing will hold water except for a few major teams that have almost no travel costs to go to ISSA. |
| Feb. 16, 2015 SSUSA Staff 3483 posts | The most simple method would be to reduce or eliminate the "out of rating roster exceptions" ... As recently as the 2007 Season, that was the policy ... All teams played at the rating level of the highest rating experience history of any player on their roster ... Many teams today expend a lot of energy trying to get to, but not exceed, the currently allowed three out of rating players ... There are members of the SSUSA Rules Committee who favor returning to that policy, but so far they are in the minority ... This would also result in teams moving up from AA to AAA and from AAA to Major ... |
| Feb. 16, 2015 Tim Millette 615 posts | SSUSA staff...I think you are over looking the point that in every other SSUSA division the dominate teams and their players get rated to a higher level. This allows for bumped teams in AA, AAA to believe they have a chance to compete in the next level. It should be obvious by investigation into EVERY age group of softball that...allowing dominant teams to continue to dominate any individual division does NOT lead to many teams moving up. |
| Feb. 16, 2015 DCPete 409 posts | For the record, the ISSA plan really hasn't been working as they intended. Most of the Major teams are now entering as AAA to avoid the Major+ teams and the AAA teams are mostly playing AA to avoid the Major teams. So there are still only a small number of teams in the combined M+/M divisions and really what's happened is that AAA & AA have basically been combined. |
| Feb. 16, 2015 Tim Millette 615 posts | Alan, it's good have you on this thread. To open a discussion on my belief that allowing a group of players to continue to dominate any one division is harmful to that divisions ability to grow..I asks Think back to what happened to AA when spectrum and Hague stayed intact year after year while domination AA... Do you think this was an incentive or a negative when it came to A teams wanting to mover up... Maybe move on to how Utrip Major and asa Super divisions of youngster softball have been unable to attract enough teams to have a stand alone division. It is my belief a large part of the problems in those two youngster divisions is exactly what's been holding senior plus programs numbers down...ie...allowing individual groups of players to dominate year after year. As an example...in another thread about the top senior players one of summerville's players said they were something like 102-8 last year. In seniors...many groups of friends disband every year instead of move up to, in their minds, be cannon fodder at the next level. It is my belief the breaking up of teams/friends for the betterment of the health of softball should not stop at the Plus level. Removing dynasty teams from AA, AAA, Major is a proven asset to senior ball. Please enlighten me as to why it would not be as valuable for the Plus Division. |
| Feb. 16, 2015 SSUSA Staff 3483 posts | MOST RECENT FIVE YEARS SSUSA WORLD CHAMPIONS50-MAJOR PLUS • 2014 - DLB (WI) • 2013 - Nazzareno Electric (CA) • 2012 - NW Legends (WA) • 2011 - Line Drive/Salsa Bombers (MI) • 2010 - Seacrest Mavericks (CA) 55-MAJOR PLUS • 2014 - Summy's Nighthawks (CA) • 2013 - MTC Softball 55 (CA) • 2012 - MTC Softball 55 (CA) • 2011 - Hendricks Sports Managemenbt (TX) • 2010 - OLR Nighthawks (CA) 60-MAJOR PLUS • 2014 - Superior Senior Softball (VA) • 2013 - Hollis Appraisals (FL) • 2012 - Hollis Appraisals (FL) • 2011 - MTC Softball 60 (CA) • 2010 - GSF (A) 65-MAJOR PLUS • 2014 - Full Circle (AZ) • 2013 - Hamel/Superior Softball (VA) • 2012 - Hamel/Turn Two (VA) • 2011 - Omen 65 (CA) • 2010 - Florida Legends/Human Kinetics |
| Feb. 16, 2015 Tim Millette 615 posts | Alan, many other senior teams want to play with the same friends year after year. But...many teams get bumped and have to make player changes. I guess it's my belief that those forced to compete changes should not stop at the Plus level. I gave hitting lessons to many of the old A's players (now playing 70 seniors) they have over 28 world rings...almost none of them from below the Plus level. The Mavericks one year were something like 112-3....last year Summerville was 49-3... I seem to recall the team Mario played on from back east was proudly saying they had not lost a game east of the Mississippi for two years.. I do not believe dynasty's like these are healthy for any individual softball program. I believe that if teams like summersville/Mavericks type and the Winners of last years Plus worlds were all limited to no more then 6 Plus champion/bumped players, until they reach the next age group, it would turn over the top and entice more teams to move up... Breaking up around two teams/25 players into four or more teams instead of two in each plus division should be worth trying... As for the friendship thing on teams goes...I to have many softball friends on my team... I have been to exactly one of their houses for a dinner...that's why they are softball friends...would I want to lose any of them from my team? NO...then again...out MTC team has lost at least 10 softball friends from our roster as we age/try to stay competitive. Last years 50 plus world for SSUSA was well attended..if they can keep numbers like that it would be great...but...from past observation.....'14 was an anomaly.. We are now playing 55 Major Plus ball...I I hear that division has even less support. Something has to be tried to grow Plus programs...nothing so far has seemed to work for all the Plus programs...why not try something that seems to work in every other level of senior ball...eliminating the dominant teams/rosters that are dominating. |
| Feb. 16, 2015 Tim Millette 615 posts | SSUSA staff.. How many of those champions would have still been playing in the division Worlds they "won" if roster restrictions in Plus were the same as in all your other Divisions? You know...all the other divisions that are NOT having the same problems as Plus ball!!!! Please remember you guys bump dominate teams during the season and after for not winning but instead dominating the division they are in. Maybe instead of listing teams, you can enlighten us on why roster restrictions on dominat teams in the AA, AAA and Major Divisions are good for the health of those programs BUT the same rule doesn't merit support in the limited teams Plus Divisions? |
| Feb. 16, 2015 Tim Millette 615 posts | Staff,, you listed 20 plus teams and half of them were the same teams... Is that possible in any other division of SSUSA? Also...you failed to list the four four in each event also...how many of those teams that didn't win would have been bumped in the lower levels.. As an example our MTC 50 team never won a ring or playedin the championship game yet we were bumped from a Division. |
| Feb. 16, 2015 Tim Millette 615 posts | Meant to say....top four in ach event. |
| Feb. 16, 2015 SSUSA Staff 3483 posts | Tim ... All we did was, as requested by Alan, list the Major Plus champions of the last five years for ages 50+ through 65+ ... It's up to you guys to define what relevance, if any, that list has and how this debate proceeds ... |
| Feb. 16, 2015 tattooball 774 posts | There's been major teams that won and did not move up. They also returned with almost the exact same team. |
| Feb. 16, 2015 Tate22 Men's 60 280 posts | Tim - let me first commend you for the plethora of "I" statements used in your posts. We know where you stand. Following that "I" example, I totally agree with Alan/Tri18 regarding the unnecessary and undesirable idea of breaking up teams that win. While it may rhyme, win does not = sin. The same ideas, including your idea of "break up the winners", recycle every year. This one is not needed and will not improve the game. Maybe the MLB SF Giants should be broken up. Calm down Northern CA, I don't really mean that. IMHO, arbitrarily breaking up successful teams is a selfish, self-serving idea designed to avoid and legislate competition out of existence. If a team decides they can't win at the Plus level, they are right. The other option is to improve your team as needed, and perform on the field. Again my opinion, but no team should feel entitled to win, we are all entitled and privileged to compete or stay home. Prime example of a "go for it" philosophy is the great group of guys from the San Antonio All Stars last year in 55 M+. They got bumped to that level mid-season, chose to compete instead of whine, and battled to the final game which was a 1-run ball game. Again, I salute that sense of competitiveness. My experience over the past 6 years of competing in 55M+ is that teams that want to play the best competition show up. There is plenty of competition in the 55 M+ division, and a great group of teams and players from all over the country. Those that don't want to compete or feel that they can't compete at the Plus level, will use the existing system to stay in the major division. That's fine, teams should have that choice. No amount of non-competitive legislation or tinkering is going to change the willingness to tackle the Plus level. Further, I accept the fact that a limited number of teams want to compete at the plus level. Breaking up a successful Plus team WILL NOT encourage more teams to want to move up. The core of our group has been together for nine years, first in 50's, 6 years in 55's and the older part of the group has now moved to 60's The younger part of our team, now known as Summy's 55's led by Bully Kramer, will be there to defend our 2014 55M+ crown. The older "graduated" core has been part of the 2010 AND 2014 Nighthawks teams shown above in the 55 M+ division. Along the way, we got pounded by two generations of MTC powerhouses(and a number of other good teams), kept plugging and got better, performed, and finally prevailed to win 2 rings. We would never want the MTC's of the world, or any other team, broken up to improve our chances? To be the best, I think you should WANT to play the best? Our 60's crew now looks forward to the privilege of competing against Hollis, Superior, GSC 60's and all the other warriors in the 60's Plus division that buckle up every year. Again, just my opinion, but the Plus divisions are what they are, they ain't broke, so leave 'em alone. To paraphrase a pretty good baseball movie, if they want it, they will come. See you on the fields. Don Newhard Manager - Summy's Nighthawks 60's M+ Formerly GM/Manager of Nighthawks 55 M+ Sommerville Softball |
| Feb. 16, 2015 Mario Men's 50 451 posts | As stated by SSUSA staff there has been a different winner at Vegas the last 5 years. Where is the dynasty in that? Yes Tim is right,OKI went undeafeated east of the Mississippi for almost 3 years in bracket play. But we did lose some RR games. Even at that we never finished higher than 3rd in Vegas. With sponsorship the way it is I say open up the top division like Jawood says and let the teams to play in that division by choice and let the teams who don't want to stay at Major. Also i have to agree with what was said about the ISSA merger. All it has done is cause more sand bagging. Just my opinion. |
| Feb. 16, 2015 Tim Millette 615 posts | I guess what it comes down to is a dislike for the dynasty teams that want a merger with major because they don't want to play the same couple teams all the time.... If you want to play against the best....make sure no inferior major teams are forced into your bracket. As it is.....,many players win multiple world rings in Plus..that is very rare in any of the thriving SSUSA AA, AAA, Major divisions. |
| Feb. 16, 2015 Mario Men's 50 451 posts | I guess your definition of a Dynasty is different than mine. We have had a different winner at Vegas for the last 5 seasons. For me if a team was a Dynasty then they would have won 3,4,5 years in a row, or 3,4,5, out of the last 5. In 50 Major+ this just has not happened in the last 5 years at Vegas. I do agree with you Tim on not making Major teams play up. But this only happens when there are not enough teams for the Plus teams to play. I think in that case they should let the Major teams know they will be playing the Plus teams in advance or not let the Plus teams in the tourney. I for one don't want to play any team that does not want to play Plus teams. I may be playing on a Major team this year. One of the questions I asked them was if they wanted to get bumped up, if so what would they do? |
| Feb. 16, 2015 Tim Millette 615 posts | SSUSA Staff.....I understand it's easier to keep the status quo but... When something has had the problem Plus ball has had, I would think..... the powers to be would try to think outside the box... If it's not a "tuff concept to grasp"..... How about grasping what's been keeping the Plus divisions so limited in team numbers AND SHARING YOUR BELIEFS WITH US? It's my belief dynasty type teams remaining year after year in plus ball are one of the main reasons... Is it that hard to grasp.. what works in every other division in SSUSA, removing dynasty teams from the division...should be worth trying in the Plus divisions. If I were in charge of trying to grow the Plus division in SSUSA..I would limit Plus Champions to no more then Six plus champions on their roster till they reach the next age group....can you grasp that concept and enlighten me to my ignorance?.... |
| Feb. 17, 2015 OZ40 549 posts | It's a tough call on what if anything to do. It's no secret that if you are geared not only win at a certain level but to win tournaments and championships at that given level then you will be "competitive" at the next level. However, if you go into a tournament at that next level with less then your best team taking the field then it's going to be a long short weekend if you know what I mean. At any level be it AA or Major if you are in the right level for your team you should be able to compete with less than your best team on the field. We all know many players cannot make every tournament yet it shouldn't spell doom for the rest of the team when some key players cannot make a tournament. Maybe it comes down to honesty. Automatic move up rules aside, if you know deep down you should be playing up a level then do so. |
| Feb. 17, 2015 Maint11 7 posts | Gentlemen: these are all great comments. Obviously there are a lot of different opinions out there. I don't envy the SSUSA staff who have to make all the tough decisions and try to keep everybody happy....good luck with that one. But anyway, could some of you who have been around for a while in Senior Softball, please comment on the suggestion about the Equalizer Rule (after a certain number of homeruns), that was suggested in the original post. Maybe it has been tried before, I don't know. I'm sure that there are both positives and negatives with this idea, but I don't know what the negatives are. How would a team be hurt by this rule, especially if there is no limit to the number of homeruns that can be hit by either team. It forces both teams to be good in ALL ASPECTS of softball, rathing than making it a homerun derby. Not having played Major-plus before, I'm not sure if that is the case or not (homerun derby), but that's the general comment I consistently hear. That being said, we'll play, whatever the rules are...no problem. Like someone said earlier,we're all blessed just to be able to still play competitive softball at this age...!! |
| Feb. 17, 2015 softball4b Men's 70 1248 posts | Tim, I don't see any team named Dynasty, who are they and where do they play. The last team I know of named Dynasty was defeated by our Pro Team/Dan Smith. Just Saying. |
| Feb. 17, 2015 JamesLG 420 posts | I believe one point that is missing here is the Major+ tag a player gets when they move up. I think eliminating the tag would make more players want to give M+ a try. Don't punish a player for trying it for a year and if it does not work out they can get the Major status back the following season. Thanks: James |
| Feb. 17, 2015 Paco13 424 posts | I have not read everybody's input. Why have a M+ DIVISON when you can not get enough team to play in it. ISSA has it right get rid of the M+ division. More than that get rid of the AA division. senior bats changed all of that two divisions is all what is needed or get rid of senior bats. AA team hitting 6-7 HRs for outs AAA hitting 6-7 HRs for out...but why will you want to move up and play 2 out of 3 with the same teams over and over at least that is the case in Mid-Atlantic area. My two cents... PR NINJA OUT JESUS TE AMA. |
| Feb. 17, 2015 Tim Millette 615 posts | Mike, defining a dynasty team is VERY easy. It's any team with a record that would have them be bumped up if they were in the AA AAA MAJOR divisions. As an example...our MTC team was jumped to Plus after placing third, and I think fourth, at back to back Worlds...that's right...we never made the finals. So...using us an example.... Dynasty teams that hinder upward team movement (hurt the division they are in) are easy to see in the AA. AAA MAJOR senior divisions...why is it so difficult to see them hurting Plus ball? Plus has been withering on the vine and it seems like no one can think outside the box and TRY methods to help the division...if the six player Plus restrictions were tried???? I am sure in two or three years the results could be measured. As an example...our MTC 50 Plus team is moving to 55s...IF.....there were restrict like I mentioned...we just might have been able to compete (we won ONE bracket game at the last two worlds)..and maybe ??? We would not have dropped the younger two players on our team to move to 55s... |
| Feb. 17, 2015 the wood Men's 65 1123 posts | Tim, 522 is a number to keep in mind. What significance does it have to this dialogue? It depends upon the beholder... It's been 522 years since C. Columbus sailed west in search of India. It was his premise that Earth was round and not flat. Whether he 'discovered' North America is in itself subject of debate but he does merit a annual holiday. Several cities are named for him and more... He may have been several centuries late to lay claim to North America... but the question of 'is Earth flat' has pretty much gone away, which brings me to my point... is there any chance that you'll move on to a different premise during our lifetimes? Statistically speaking, my life expectancy is roughly 18.6 years... it was closer to 20.1 when you started this campaign. My, how time flies... It has been clearly pointed out that... 1) M+ has grown over the past 4-5 years... this is on a total collision course with your thoughts. 2)There are many different winners since 2010... I do not believe that 2nd-4th place would coincide with most folks' definition of 'dynasty'... break up the Broncos! (just an example and I do like P Manning and his team, for what it's worth). Given that M+ is the highest level, it naturally follows that it should be treated differently. Those of us who have been playing at that level for 10+ years (without whining about it) prefer to build a better mousetrap rather than have our opponents be forced to reduce the effectiveness of their own... not to mention that we build quality relationships with teammates. You've made it clear that YOU didn't want to be in the M+ division... you've made it clear that YOU weren't planning to play a lot of SSUSA events because of this... as well as other points repeated numerous times. That's fine... we just don't need YOU telling us what is best for US. If it aint broke, why fix it? Bob Woodroof |
| Feb. 17, 2015 softball4b Men's 70 1248 posts | Aay Amen Aay Amen Aay Aay Aay Amen Amen.......and I like Tim. ;-) |
| Feb. 17, 2015 the wood Men's 65 1123 posts | I like most things about Tim... I particularly like his comments about hitting as I know that he is a respected hitting coach (and hitter). Beating the proverbial 'dead horse' is one of his many attributes, IMO. BW |
| Feb. 17, 2015 Tim Millette 615 posts | Bob....it's great to know you think Plus ball is NOT broken. Does that mean we can throw out any talk of merging Major with Plus? Does that mean we can throw out any talk of changing the home run rule? Does that mean we can throw out any talk of changing the roster restrictions? Does that mean we can throw out any talk of trying to bump more Major teams? Now onto the different winners thing...if you actually look at the list STAFF posted...40% of the winners won more then once. But that doesn't tell the whole story...how many of the dominant teams were in the final three most of the years? You say 2 through 4 at worlds are not dominant type teams and should NOT be bumped....maybe you should check out who has been bumped over the last few years...NorCal had ebo, Warriors, aftershock, MTC all bumped and they had never been in the top two at worlds when they were bumped to Plus. Maybe you should go look and see if the world is still not flat because you seem to be a little wanting on history. Major plus thinking they should be treated differently...I do not believe any division should be treated any different...age groups yes...they should be allowed different rules as we age... Bob....you would be hard pressed to find anything posted by me saying I don't want to be major plus in our age group....again... better go check that flat earther thing... you are also wrong again on us not playing much SSUSA because we are major plus....for the record I'd just as soon our team only play SSUSA worlds because I hate three day events....besides...senior ball is a little boring to me...If I had it my way we would be playing a lot of USSSA E. Bob, I am wondering if your attitude towards me talking about Plus changes falls into the same category as those that talk about changing plus homerun rules, roster restrictions, or merging major with plus....yet....somehow... I think anyone would be hard pressed to find a post with you attacking those ideas and the people that post thinking of changes to plus...maybe you can prove me wrong and attack the original poster of this thread that talked about changing plus stuff.... In the end Bob....I would guess your one of the ones that feel special being a senior plus champion....I say that because of your vigar in coming after my idea that weakening the top plus teams would help grow the plus divisions....at one point in my life I too put much value into a softball ring...fortunately...that only lasted a few years between 28-32... Now I just have one more question for you....I know your not a flat earther so....can you use this a teachable moment for me...I am a little slow so please don't use any big words... On the flat earthers thing... I wanted to check that one before I answered your post....so.....I took my level out to the garden and set it on the ground....the bubble was dead center...I always thought that meant something was level/flat??????? |
| Feb. 17, 2015 the wood Men's 65 1123 posts | Tim, you either don't get it or just choose to ignore significant info... I'm going to take the high road here and presume it's the latter. Earth to Tim... the 2nd thru 4th comment was about M+... not about the other divisions... surely that didn't slip right by you. Yes, when we win I do feel good about it... don't really care how u feel about it now or when you were 30. My attitude toward you is not similar to the changes in M+ rules... they are worth discussing. How does my lack of patience with your constant effort at grabbing attention have anything to do with rules changes (ASIDE FROM BREAKING UP THE M+ WINNERS)? Your responses don't match the points being stated... Sort of like brown shoes a d a black tux I'm not passionate about the HR rules. I've long ago given up on merging M & M+. I don't have a strong opinion on bumping teams up. I've never met you but have heard mostly good thing about you. But it's crystal clear to me that I'll avoid discussing anything meaningful with you. I take this position when someone either intentionally confuses an issue or shows a complete inability to understand even the most elementary of concepts. I truly feel it's the former. BW |
| Feb. 17, 2015 Tim Millette 615 posts | Bob, it's very interesting that I tried to address most of the points you tried to make and share with you your wrong assumptions about our team and myself. It's disapointing you were unable to understand that I was addressing the "issues" you posted. It you have paid any attention to when I post about restricting plus champions to a certain number or champion players you should know...I only do it after some plus guy talks about trying to force even more weaker major teams to the plus level... It is my belief only Major world champion teams should get bumped to Plus...if all the Plus guys just want to play the "best" why do many of them continue to call for getting more weaker major teams into their games? With that said...Bob, do you think like I do that only the Major world champion should be bumped to Plus...or do you want weaker major teams bumped also? |
| Feb. 17, 2015 the wood Men's 65 1123 posts | What part of 'my only issue is breaking up M+ teams' is the most challenging for you? I can't speak for 'all the plus guys'... Tim, I have zero interest in discussing what I perceive as ancillary matters... most notably with you... for the reasons previously stated. If I wish to retrace my steps I'll take up dancing. |
| Feb. 18, 2015 Webbie25 Men's 70 2414 posts | I had a lot of this discussion with Tim in past years. I have a perspective built by experience playing all 4 levels, from AA to M+. M+ is different from the other 3 levels just because it is the top of the heap and has to be treated differently. Those that play that level still have the drive to be the best, and you don't find that as much at the lower levels of senior ball. I don't see Dynasties either, but if there are, who cares? If you can build a team that wins at the top level, more power to you. I have been on teams 'chasing' the best teams now for 3 years at M+. This year I will be back with GSC and absolutely cannot wait for the chance to play Superior or Hollis or Nighthawks this year. Don-it will be good to see you and compete against you again. That's what it is all about. I am very tired of the prevailing attitude in this country and some in senior softball that teams that win or people who are successful should be broken up, or what they have earned should be taken from them. Broken? Not as bad as you seem to think, Tim. There have been 8 or 9 teams at major plus in the 60's in worlds now for a few years. M+ teams don't grow on trees. The biggest problem is distance and cost for playing each other more. And with this iffy economy, it becomes tough to do the travel. Answers to your questions Tim: 1. NO 2. YES-no DBO's for the top division-we are over 50 and if you can still do it-hit 'em!! 3. NO 4. Yes, bump teams that win consistently at AA, AAA, and Major. As far as I am concerned, if I was on a team that won at world's because they had broken up a 'dynasty' it would be a hollow victory. I would always wonder if we could have beaten that dynasty team. I say stop trying to 'dumb down' the top division. |
| Feb. 18, 2015 swing for the fences Men's 50 1224 posts | Well Tim.. I think that you have the wrong perspective on this. Instead of looking at the big bad Dynasty teams as a bad thing.. you should look at them as a challenge... That is how I look at it.. I always like to challenge myself, and to make the other team notice my team and myself who we are as a team and as a player... and if I play my game and my team plays their game, we have a chance to beat anyone on any given occasion. Can't tell you how many times my teams in past were the underdogs and we beat them.. JK INC had a record of 3Zillion and 1 one year.. and my 12angry team out of SF had two Rec ball players on it.. Beat them.. That is what it's all about in my book.. Knocking the Dynasty team off their Perch.. Anyway, looking at last years 50major plus world, We had enough teams, enough balance, and I felt that anyone could of won that tourney. A team My injured team beat, won it all.. so, the fact that SSUSA bumped a bunch of teams last year is working in my book.. IMO |
| Feb. 18, 2015 swing for the fences Men's 50 1224 posts | BTW Tim, you have a very nice 55 team with a bunch of great guys on it.. you have a very good chance to do a lot of damage in 55plus ball this year. how would you like to be broken up to just 6 players at the end of the year? would suck, don't you think? |
| Feb. 18, 2015 Malo37 62 posts | I got it bad. The softball sickness, I got it bad. I personally, and I know I can speak for my team, enjoy playing the best. The worlds this past year in Vegas was great! Every game was against a very good team. I think the plus division is getting better with more teams. I look forward to playing the best! That's why we do this, not to go out and win easily. It's about being challenged and digging deep. When we lose we tip our hat and congratulate the other team. When we win it's good to know it was against a very good team that could have beaten us as well. I enjoy the competition. We also were bumped to plus without winning the worlds. We never complained and actually have enjoyed the competition. If we win a ring it's because it was earned. I'm super happy with my teammates. I love these guys and would hate to be forced to break up. I will never support that thought..... Dave Quiroz Az Elite |
| Feb. 18, 2015 Tim Millette 615 posts | Rich, yes our 55 team should be fun to play with but...with the varsity MTC 55 team, Arizona Elite and others in 55s next year our MTC Jayvee team will have to play out of our minds to win worlds. It's really nice for a change to read all the Plus guys saying Plus is great..leave us alone. It just seems like yesterday many Plus players were crying for more Major teams to get bumped or merged to beat up on. As for our team...we have not cut a player in years (only 1 guy left in the last three seasons) Unlike many other Plus teams..we do NOT cut friends to try to give us a bettsr chance to win what I see as a meaningless "ring". If...the rules were to only return six plus champions till we reach the next age group I'd be fine with it..we could still stay together and just find different teams for the couple/few SSUSA events we play. Heck...maybe SSUSA would allow returning plus champions with more then six players to play in the next youngest age groups Major division...maybe we'd do that???? |
| Feb. 19, 2015 Webbie25 Men's 70 2414 posts | Tim, it is great that you have almost the same team for so long and you are all friends. I played on the Desperados for about 20 years off and on, and steadily from about 2004 to 2011. It was a great run with great friends. Playing Major Plus is a different mindset. Guys that play that level want to win it all. There is a choice to be made on how to win. When you have a large sponsor, that sponsor wants to win. The guys that play on those teams know what probably will happen and accept it with that goal in mind. So my question to you is: Why do you work so hard to try to make it so your team, and others that want to play with their friends and not make the choices to try to get stronger, can compete at that level? Why do you need to pull them back to your level? And as strong as your team is, is it fair to all of the other teams that you be allowed to stay at Major and win? You should not take your decision to not make those choices to improve and try to impose them on others at M+. By the way, M+ teams can also be great friends. Last year I missed the GSC guys because of the friendships while I healed from my knee replacement. |
