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Discussion: Major plus problem

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April 24, 2015
Mr. Manassas
244 posts
Major plus problem
I am totally frustrated as are all my teammates on Superiors 60 and 65 teams. We tried to enter a SPA tournament in Maryland and basically were denied because they said that no one wanted to play us....Their solution was for us to play ourselves, of course after paying two entry fees. This is a problem across all the associations. I would like to ask the SSUSA staff if the answer is for us to play 55 major or 60 major with our 65s or if we would be allowed to play the younger major teams? is the intent of all the associations to force us to disband? I know that it is a problem that has no easy answer. I can't believe that more teams do not want to play at the highest level. I wish that there was some way to entice teams and players to play up.....Sorry for the rant!!!
April 24, 2015
BruceinGa
Men's 70
3192 posts
Same problem here in the Southeast Billy. Our 60 major team will most times play the 55 major or AAA teams.
April 24, 2015
Sparky.1
Men's 65
272 posts
Mr. Manassas:

I'd like to add my two cents worth but not on this venue. Please contact me via my email: grm.phd@gmail.com

Look forward to hearing from you shortly!

Sparky
April 25, 2015
bucs15
25 posts
Mr.Manassas I understand your frustration.We High St Bucs 55 major have been to tournaments were we had to play 50 major+ teams.This is no big deal to us.So next time a sanction denies you for lack of teams we will gladly play you guys.Your a great team and only make teams better playing against your level of talent.Best of luck in the up comming year.
April 25, 2015
rh25
Men's 65
29 posts
My AAA team played your team in the first game at Glen Burnie SPA last year. We didn't have any problem with playing you guys. You were limited to 3 hrs and we got an extra fielder. I believe you batted everyone. I think it was 17 guys. What impressed me most was your defense. An of'er made a headfirst diving catch going towards the warning track and your SS turned a dp on what was a sure hit in any other game. Also, with the hr limit you guys showed you could base hit. You run ruled us but so what; so did some AAA teams during the year.

I know another AAA team beat you guys in the pool games. I don't know what everyone is afraid of. I found it interesting to play you.
April 25, 2015
B.J.
714 posts
Why would you ask a question about a SPA Tour. on a SSUSA web site....I think you should bring that up on a SPA web site.... I dont think you will get an answer from STAFF....
April 25, 2015
hombre
Men's 60
240 posts
I believe Mr. Manassas asked his question on this board because it's a softball site which is read by many softball players who find themselves in similar situations and may be able to make a suggestion that will improve the current major plus dilemma. He mentioned that it is a problem across all associations, which would include SSUSA. Since they play several SSUSA tournaments every year, he is appealing to the staff for suggestions.

I also think that the STAFF at SSUSA will decide if they can make a positive contribution to the discussion. Just a thought
April 26, 2015
Tim Millette
615 posts
My answer is...

make it more enticing for major teams to move up by reducing the huge difference in talent from the couple/few dynasty groups of players that win multiple rings in one division...

hello...if you have guys walking around with three or four Champion rings in any one division/age group...there is one of your biggest problem.

********Make a rule that no more then SIX Major Plus champions can be on any individual roster till the join the next/older age group..ie...

You win Plus 50 Worlds no more six of those players can be on the same roster till they reach the 55 group...

One caveat...those players can stay together if they want to, but...they have to play in the next youngest Major Division.
April 26, 2015
Paco13
424 posts
Mr. Manassas stop crying. You put a superstar team on an area where there is no competition. Your weakest hitter hits 750 on a bad day. Why should I pay $600 to play for second. Sadly said but that is the problem with big powers teams there is no competition. I believe that you will beat most of if not all 55 Major teams on the East coast. Believe me I enjoy watching you guys hit it is clinic every time. Sorry but that is the price you pay for putting a great team together. Not hating it just reality.

PR NINJA OUT

JESUS TE AMA
April 26, 2015
OZ40
537 posts
My take is this: Senior ball players are like kids that are just starting out in organized sports. I don't mean in terms of mentality so calm down. Nine or ten year olds for instance, heck some of these kids are huge and some are very small, some are skilled and have natural athletic ability while others struggle. There is a big difference both size and talent wise.

Seniors are similar to that because life has not treated us the same. Every human is unique and different and has had circumstances in the course of life that has brought them to this current time and level of the physical condition and limitations they currently have. Some retain speed, some a good glove and quick hands, and some a great bat, some just great health, some are genetically spared that spare tire around the mid-section, and some are blessed with a great arm.

Make no mistake about it, some seniors are still capable of playing tournament ball with the "younger" guys at the 35-40-45 and over or even the A-B or C open tournament level. Maybe if a team can't find the right competition level they may not looking in the right places.
April 26, 2015
stick8
1784 posts
Tim that sounds good in theory but in order for that to succeed at the major plus level wouldn't removing the bordering states rule make it easier? It's not like all major plus teams are from areas where there are numerous players to choose from.
April 26, 2015
titanhd
Men's 50
576 posts
Tim what Major team in any Major age group has won back to back in the last few years that would qualify as a "dynasty" team.
April 27, 2015
Webbie25
Men's 65
2273 posts
Hey, Mr. Manassas-the perennial problem in major plus-too few teams, too large a country, too much cost involved-the teams that really want to play M+ can't afford the travel involved very often. The economy stinks so big sponsors are very hard to come by. We have talked about this many times, for sure.
The bottom line is really simple. Too many very M+ capable seniors want to play with friends (and I bet some make that excuse to avoid playing M+ for whatever reason). Too many very M+ capable seniors do not have the stomach to put in what it takes to win at the top level any more. Too many M+ capable players cannot afford to travel the distances required to play the other teams at that level very often. Too many M+ capable players would rather play at a lower level and win NOW, instead of building a team to compete with the best. Too many teams that get moved up to M+ break up rather than compete, claiming they cannot win. They give up.
I think SSUSA has done as much as they can with the rules. The bordering states rule does prevent those few teams with the big sponsors from just buying ALL the top players they need. The inning run limits and home run limits act as equalizers. They keep trying to move teams up, but the teams resist the moves for a variety of reasons. The answer is never going to be to break up teams that do win. I really hope that does not become 'The American Way'-to tear down those that get ahead-rather than improve yourself to get ahead of them! It does seem that we are headed in that direction as a country WAY too quickly!
There is no easy answer, and there never will be. I look forward to the opportunity to get on the field to compete with the top teams. I know my teammates do too. But, sadly, there are just not enough players and teams that feel that way AND are able to travel anymore.
April 27, 2015
Tim Millette
615 posts
I never named/addressed teams.

I talked about PLAYERS....its very hard for players to earn many AA, AAA, MAJOR RINGS over their playing years but....

the huge majority of multi ring earners have collected almost all the rings from the PLUS division...

that I believe shows individual players groups as dominant and...is one of the biggest reasons I believe Plus is almost never tempting for the Manor teams to try to move up to.

As for the elimination of regional requirements goes...I think the Plus limits being used now are fine/I'd actually support them being stricter.....

I mean really...you cannot find 12 good players from half of the United States?? Really!!!!

It would be interesting to see how the only six champion players per roster would work..

I think it would spread out the PLUS talent, weaken the big money PLUS style teams and make it a little more enticing for the bumped Major teams to see how they stack up to the slightly weaker Plus dynasty's.

Remember...it's my "assumption" that what's keeping Plus numbers down is the dominant players in that Division get to stay together and still stay in Plus ball...that's not allowed in any other division of SSUSA..

Every other Division your only allowed to have three players ranked higher and that seems to be working pretty well..I still have not heard why restrictiing Plus to having twice as many (6) dominate as any other SSUSA division is not worth trying
April 27, 2015
Benji4
230 posts
Tim Really??????

The reason major plus is down because we live in a Vagina based society nowadays and people are afraid of losing. There are very few warriors anymore.

Why should good players not be allowed to play together?

How about going to One division...............

Then players would have to do things like take BP three times a week, go to the gym, take supplements, and play league so that they GET BETTER...... Is the ring that important or is it about being competitive and playing at the highest level? I've had my ass kicked lots of times as well as won lots of time, but it doesn't mean I quit competing at the highest level after losing.

Until we as a society quit accepting PUSSIFICATION as an excuse people will play down so they can win rather than COMPETE....

Most major plus players could care less about winning it's about COMPETING and playing at the highest level possible. Winning is just the bonus for putting in the work. I realize some players are limited due to injury or other complications so then have one division UPPER and LOWER......

Not allowing teams to get the best players possible or limiting the number of good players is flat out ridiculous. So we will have tryouts and people will sandbag like little league when you wanted to get on a certain coach's team. Who is in charge of saying whether a player is good or not, and who dominates. I play on the team I do because I love every one of those guys and will play my ass off all the time for all of them.

I don't know you or if you play major plus or not but limiting players on any certain team is not the answer.
GETTING BETTER and putting in the work is the answer............
April 27, 2015
So Cal Z
Men's 50
40 posts
There is nothing better than competing against the best teams at the highest level. We got bumped this season after finishing 2nd at major worlds last year, and we are not having much success yet....yet. For us playing teams like Summerville and AZ Elite who both play hard and with class can only make you better, in my opinion. There are some very good major teams out there that I think could compete at the next level but are just not willing too.
April 27, 2015
crusher
Men's 75
524 posts
Those not willing to compete at the next level breakup and help build other teams.

Guess if a team does not want to move up they can intentionally lose finishing 4th to 7th in the National Tournaments so they will not get moved up. (sorta dumb I think)

What other methods do teams and guys use to avoid playing Major or Major Plus ?????????
April 27, 2015
Benji4
230 posts
So Cal Z and Crusher I commend you.

My point was if you or your team are not trying to get better to compete at the highest level than that's a problem. we screwed up in society by giving trophies for last place and accepting mediocrity as a way of life. it's not okay to be average or mediocre and not try to be the best you can be.

If teams worked hard to get better there would be more major plus teams.

Focus should be on competing at the highest level not a stupid ring you won at a lower level. Dedication, effort, practice and hard work defines winning.

And let's not forget even the best stacked teams lose it's underhand pitching.....

And to clarify I'm not saying every major or lower player is a vagina.

I'm saying if you or your team aren't trying your hardest to get better and compete at the highest level than you are a contributor to the pussification of America.
April 27, 2015
Nancy Allen
Men's 55
1331 posts
Benji4, I can tell that you are really upset, but I can guarantee you that female anatomy has nothing to do with it. Tim knows that I do not agree with him on this point. He is younger; so don't let your blood pressure get up.

The one point people ignore when this discussion comes up is availability of coaches and managers. Having been in those roles before I know that the roller coaster suggested would cause many to quit, and Major and Major+ players need someone in a role willing to take care of a team.
April 27, 2015
Tim Millette
615 posts
I guess it just comes down to...

Me still not understand why something that seems to work (regulating how many top players can be on a roster) in every other SSUSA division is not used in the one division that's has the biggest participation issues.

As for being something special because you work to "compete" at the Plus level... That's for another threat..this one was about lack of Plus teams and ways to address it...

To this date...I don't know anything other then the Mississippi Plus rule that they have attempted to try to reduce the talent divide between Major and Plus.

April 27, 2015
the wood
Men's 65
1123 posts
Tim, why don't you build a M+ team, win two straight years (in order to comply with your definition of dynasty teams) and then voluntarily break it up?
That would be the ultimate in 'putting up'. No amount of key board filibusters will make the nearly the impact of an actual demonstration.
BW
April 27, 2015
Tim Millette
615 posts
Wood,

Actually putting up would be winning it once and having our roster held to the no more then six players on the following years roster.

Since our Plus team doesn't cut guys to get "better" we would probably vote to stay together and play the next youngest Manor Division..

You see...we see success and having a group that stays together and has fun.

Most of the time that puts us in the middle or lower part of the pack..hence we have never been it the finals of any World tourney...either major or plus...

I just find it amusing how the "way into it" Plus guys get their undies all bunched up when I mention a process I believe would bring more parity into Plus ball.

That makes me believe those undie bunchers care less about the game then their own little.... Softball RINGS!!!!

Again...those dominant Plus teams could still stay intact if they wanted to... it's just they would need to play against teams in the next youngest age group.
April 27, 2015
Nancy Allen
Men's 55
1331 posts
Actually AA has many of the same participation problems as Major+. They often go to tournaments as the only one and go into the lion's den to be potentially beat up by AAA and Major teams, even when equalizers are used. Yet they are more worried about playing and competing, and you hardly ever hear them complain about the lack of participation of other AA teams at some events.
April 27, 2015
Mark 44
Men's 60
88 posts
I know that you aren't going to want to hear this, but here goes. There will always be an elite bracket in each age group. The best teams always will attract the best athletes.

Playing Major+ is about being the best in the country. I have played on 50, 55 & 60 Major+ teams, on and off over the past 10 years. No bitching, Just "Show Up With the Best You Can Put on The Field & Duke It Out"

Sometimes our frail ego's get in the way. People as a whole just hate to lose. Last years Worlds in Vegas (Boulder City) had 4 60 Major+ teams. It was no fun.

It's no fun playing local SSUSA Championships & not being able to play other Major+ teams at the same age levels. That I understand, it's just the nature of the beast. SSUSA tries it's best to accommodate. For that I give them credit.

SSUSA can do nothing about the cost to travel. This has always been the biggest issue getting teams to travel from coast to coast. East Coast teams hate to travel out here & vice a versa. That's why SSUSA uses Las Vegas as its "ACE in the Hole" for the Worlds. Make it a destination.

Tim, you are actually lucky. When we played 50 Major+ in NCSSA, we weren't allowed to even compete in Nor Cal tournaments. If we wanted to play, it was strictly as an exhibition team. But we were a bunch of friends that wanted to play together & not get broken up & compete against each other.

I got reclassified down to Major (I need a new knee), this year. I am having more fun playing & competing at tournaments where there has been 13 & 19 teams in the last 2 SSUSA tournaments, than I have ever had playing Major+.

I guess it's up to you & each one of your team mates to figure out where your priorities lie. I guess if you get fed up enough, you can each be 1 of 3 players on a Major team.

I really am not sure that there is a way to fix Major+.......
April 27, 2015
the wood
Men's 65
1123 posts
then win one big event and then break up.
Don't equate winning with sponsorship. They are not the same.
The Old A's won quite a bit with minimal or zero financial help. I use them as an example because they're in your neck of the woods.
I get it... more often than not, sponsored teams win... it isn't 100% of the time. But it would be 100% if all of the unsponsored teams had your mind set.
But this is still moot until SSUSA puts your idea on its rules committee agenda... or have you forgotten that little factoid?
April 27, 2015
Webbie25
Men's 65
2273 posts
Mark44-wait a sec-there was Superior, Hollis, God Squad, Rogue, Chain Link, Minnesota, Timberworks, and Top Gun at least in Boulder last year in 60 M+. But you are right on the rest of it. show up and play-for sure on a given day anyone can beat another team.
This weekend in Vegas was an example-any one of the 4 teams could have won at 60 M+-games were competitive-even 15 run leads were not safe. No one went undefeated. The high winds were a factor. Rogue had been moved up last year, lost some key people, and instead of whining-came out, got some great players and came at everyone there hard-and were close to advancing to the Championship game. Kudos to them for some hard play!
It's all in what you make it-I say quit whining and play ball-and I hope some more very capable M+ caliber players get the cojones to come out and play. I know there are a lot of you!
April 27, 2015
Mark 44
Men's 60
88 posts
I hate getting Old. Of course you are right. There was 9 teams, you forgot Old Dawgs ... LOL Actually that was a big turnout! I would even call it successful....
April 27, 2015
Webbie25
Men's 65
2273 posts
Darn Mark-I knew I missed one and can't believe it was them after we just played them 3 times this weekend. THAT is oldage.
April 27, 2015
tattooball
755 posts
There is a lot of problems with softball and they will never fix them all. Here's one for all of you left coasters to think about. Here in the north east we have states the size of counties in Ca and AZ that are land locked. Entire states that can't play 40 miles to the west, because of a 12 mile piece of land that separates 2 states. Guy that drive and play league with a team but can't play tourney ball with the same team. Try to assemble a legal team that is middle of the road at major because we are so limited for players.

You guys should not be complaining, the west coast has every advantage, then Mid-Atlantic.
You always see teams from the northeast do very well out west in AA and AAA because these good players have to stay with local teams.
April 27, 2015
the wood
Men's 65
1123 posts
Kevin, might I suggest you find an older map... perhaps pre-1776 will work. Quite frankly, I never thought of that being an issue... it doesn't seem fair.
Not all of us (Left Coasters) are complaining... just a few.
Our team has the opposite problem... hardly any of us can play leagues together because of the distance.
BW
April 27, 2015
Webbie25
Men's 65
2273 posts
Tattooball-Interestingly, unless I missed a state that is better-Tennessee based teams would have access to the biggest population segment in the country and I believe about 20% of the population actually lives in Tennessee or in states touching it. I do understand the small state issue, too. Pity poor North Dakota-touching Montana, South Dakota and Minnesota only and the distances are big. Maine touches New Hampshire only. I don't know how you would make it better. If they tried to draw lines that had even populations, it would get to be just like the political system-with teams attempting to redraw their districts to include people they want on their teams. SSUSA does the best they can. If so many guys and teams didn't try to twist the rules to their advantage, maybe more reasonable requests would be granted as far as exceptions, like the 12 mile one you noted above.
April 27, 2015
Fabe
Men's 60
418 posts
Man can we complicate things...like a great game that should entertain us n keep us healthy! We have the great Pacific Ocean that keeps us away from many tourneys, but such is life! I would not want it any other way....no simple answers to the Major+ division, but if U can why not play against the best? Yet ring chasing has become a priority...Oh well if I don't play well or my team loses early to these Young Guns, there is always great surf! Be safe n healthy my Bruddahs. Aloha, Fabe
April 27, 2015
paul0784
Men's 60
218 posts
Webbie, how would you like to play in the Northeast where there are a total of less than 20 teams of all age brackets playing tournaments. There is maybe one team in the M+ bracket in the whole Northeast. So, even playing M is a disadvantage here because trying to field a team of say 60 year olds is even a problem. We just got moved up to 60M after the greatest weekend we had finishing second at the Worlds and now are having trouble finding 60 year old guys to fill in the spots vacated by some of our teammates. Due to injury and just age have stopped playing. We just don't have the inventory of players that other areas of the country have at their disposal. We have never shied away from playing anyone at any level but if you can't compete you can't compete. Good luck this year on the field and hope your health issues are behind you.
April 28, 2015
Hitman 34
7 posts
Now don't say everyone, because there are so few teams we play you almost every tournament and it is great competition! You have never heard us once say we won't play you and that is your 60 team. In ISSA most of the 60 M teams have asked to play AAA, but not us. Playing you makes us a better team.

Jeff Hitt
NJ Hitmen
April 28, 2015
Webbie25
Men's 65
2273 posts
Hi Paul-long time no see-hope you guys are doing well! My knee replacement has been a success so far-I am at about 90% and enjoying playing again.
I understand the problems-I just am saying I don't really see an easy fix. I just pointed out some obvious problem areas. You always had a very tough team-best of luck to you guys.
Hitman-that's the big thing a lot of people have forgotten-playing teams that are better than you makes you better-AMEN.
April 28, 2015
Hitman 34
7 posts
By the way, this past winter a questionnaire came out in SSUSA about going to one Major division and eliminating Major+. I voted for it and said use Major home run rules and eliminate outside players as ISSA does. Then, don't let the Major teams slide back to AAA. I think Mr. Manassas will tell you that works pretty good. It was clear I was of the minority opinion because it wasn't adopted this year. It is really the 2 outside guys and the higher home run rule that hurt the Major teams when they move up. Most of the outside guys are already committed to a Major+ team.

Jeff Hitt
April 28, 2015
jrhunch
113 posts
when i first started playing A travel ball there were over 35 A teams at every tournament.there were over 150 A teams.a league championship game in my city would draw 2000 people.we would play snyders in our city another 3000 people would showup.softball was a big deal and the venues made their money by having paying fans.rivalries were between cities.then as teams tried to get better they started raiding rosters,thus lowering the amount of A teams.around 1978 the pro league started again raiding the rosters of other A teams.this was followed by another pro league and a super league which again thinned the ranks the A teams.then steeles sports made a big splash and wherever they went were big crowds.people could tell each other i played with or against those players.everyone wanted to play them or be like them.again more A rosters were raided.150 teams were now down to 15-20.when the A teams were disbanded people stopped paying to watch players play locally,tournaments that were played annually folded.the associations turned to the lower classifications to make their money and the rest is history.i watched the best teams in the world play on tv the another night.they were great games 42-41 final played by great players in a baseball stadium and there wasn't even 100 people in the stands.my point is there is nothing wrong with wanting to be the best but by constantly raiding roster you are diluting the pool of teams that could be competing against each other.10 major plus teams could be 35 major teams.when the goal is to be the best team this diluting of teams will always happen and the elite teams brought this on themselves.there is a big difference in competing against the best and getting the best team.i have played aaa thru major plus and have kept the same players the whole time although we got pounded in major plus i was more proud that we made it there than i was winning the rings.major plus teams need players they get them,someone gets hurt no problem they are replaced.major plus players have a mindset second to none,same thing with their work ethics.they don't need to hit homeruns they can stretch the field which means fewer hits needed to score runs.the only champions if you are calling it a world tournie is the major plus.they are willing to play with people from not only other cities but other states.i choose to try to be the best i can be with people that i have known all my softball career and are from the same city and on their best day could never be considered a major plus player.so we are playing pussified ball because we stay together as a team and continue to strive to be the best that we can be.major plus has done it to themselves and once again history is repeating itself as the associations are making their nut on the lower divisions.sick of hearing that there isn't much difference between major plus and major.it is not true.the number of A teams that i posted are not accurate so don't hold me to them.everyone stay safe and keep hitting
April 28, 2015
Fabe
Men's 60
418 posts
Here on Oahu we have a challenge playing against Seniors! Not enough teams...each Island is seperated by water n of course 2,500 miles of water seperate us from Cali. Solution play against younger teams. Yet it still softball, I am bless just to still be playing this great game! SSUSA does the best job of most organizations...lets enjoy this moment, might not have too many left! Aloha, Fabe
April 28, 2015
Tim Millette
615 posts
Let's use last weekend in Vegas as an example of why you should not consider merging Major with Plus...

In the tourney in Vegas they put the 55 Plus teams with the 50 Major teams.

I "assume" the 50 major teams are better then the 55 major teams.

Taking that assumption into last weekends results...the 55 Plus teams were competitive with the 50 Majors to the point I was told...the two 55 Plus teams came in first and second.
April 28, 2015
Malo37
62 posts
I was asked a simple question. What separates major plus players? My answer - commitment, and hard work. I don't know if I'm right but that was my answer. Our team Az Elite is not any different than most teams except that we still love the game and work at it. Benji made great points in his post. We want to be better. We take BP. We work at getting better. Many of us work out. We know we have to in order to be competitive. We want to compete against the best. We love to win, but we love to compete against the best more. I'd rather lace them up in a tournament where multiple teams could win versus showing up against poor competition. We got bumped up to major plus and never complained and have always just shown up and done our best. When you lose you tip your cap and congratulate the other team. When you win you know you earned it against great competition. Playing against the best has always been the driver for us ....... Playing a great game against a great team, there's nothing better on a ball field .......... Good luck everyone. I hope you have a great 2015!
April 28, 2015
jrhunch
113 posts
fabe,i don't believe that most teams have a problem getting players,i believe they have a problem getting great players .which is harder to do compete with what is available near you or recruit from other cities and states?the best teams choose to recruit.i choose to compete with what we have in rochester.there are 10 travel teams made up of only rochestarians.we must be the biggest city in the country or the snobbiest because we don't play with players outside our area.we have played all the best teams and are not afraid of anyone but teams like us and high street bucs are going to be a thing of the past.as we moveup in age groups the people we leave behind are getting killed because they still keep our rating.all i am saying is the problem is that the players that are the best don't want to compete they want to win.if you just want to compete see how far you can go competing with your local talent.i am not complaining about playing turn two or the hitmen or hendricks etc etc ....i am complaining that they are complaining about not enough teams.
April 28, 2015
D-Ballgame
6 posts
There is no comparison between Major & Major+ in the same age division. Take the time to watch some games. SSUSA does a pretty good job, and has done over the past several years. Sure there might be one team here or there that sneaks in under the radar, but SSUSA is pretty good at watching for this. The power rating factor for teams is a pretty good equalizer, meaning that a 55Major+ is comparable to a 50Major team when playing the LOWER classified team (in this case 50Major with 5 runs per inning and 6 HR's). This can be portrayed within each and every classification and age category.

For some who have posted that anyone can be a Major+ player is simply NOT true. A lower player (at senior age) can go to the gym daily, hit daily...and may still never equate to a Major+ player in his age classification. Granted, there may be a player who is Major+ capable but is playing in lower classifications and can step it up and be a major+ player.....but, that doesn't mean that ANYONE can be a Major+ player. Much has to do with history of playing, skills, time spent working at your game AND your DNA!

If you took the 3 very best 50Major teams and moved them up to 50Major+......they would be in the middle lower of the pack. Sure, they would win a few games here and there.....but most likely NOT be in the top 50% of the teams. If the goal is to build a team, great....get your swings and licks in and focus for the future. But, if you are limited in resources and expect a chance to win each tournament you are in or at lest finish in the top 3, then moving up is not the answer. And, this goes into each and every age division.

And....there you have it!
April 29, 2015
STL0
Men's 55
201 posts
D-Ballgame: You're spot on. At some point, hard work may not make you capable of playing at M+. It definitely plays a role but at some point people do have physical limitations.
April 29, 2015
Webbie25
Men's 65
2273 posts
I just reread this thread and nobody said just anyone can play M+. I was saying there are a lot of guys that can play and choose not to for a variety of reasons. And that a lot of guys that don't believe they could, actually could. As Wood said-a lot is between the ears. Desire and hard work does still improve us, even at this age. But, there is no easy answer to this-as we have proved many times over the years on this board.
April 29, 2015
D-Ballgame
6 posts
Yes, I may have missed the point on ANYONE can play Major+ softball if they just put a lot of work into it. But, to simply try and move up half of the 50Major teams into Major+ or even combine major & major+ would be a disaster.....yes, there is that much difference.

As Timmy mentioned in this past weekend in Vegas......(2) 55Major+ teams played in the 50Major bracket and played their lower HR rule and runs per inning.....and the (2) Major+ teams finished 1-2. And that's 55Major+. Put them in the 50Major+ with upper HR rules and 7 runs per inning......they win a couple here and there but for the most part...I don't think they would end the tournament in the top 3 or 4. But, if they CHOOSE to want to do that, GREAT! But, to be forced up....not sure that is the right answer. Having seen all of the divisions: AA, AAA, Major & Major+......I think the widest gap in talent may actually be between Major & Major+.

Many think it's just about hitting the ball. You must take into account that Major+ is the best of the best....AD, most have proven themselves at this level.....facing great pitching, stellar defense and like many said on here....the MINDSET of competing at the upper level. I've seen many players who are fantastic players at lower than Major+ level FAIL....or, struggle once they step up to playing against Major+ teams.....the pressure, facing great defenses with speed, agility, power, etc. What was a hit at Major....just might not be a hit at major+. Many if not most Major+ teams play a 5-man infield, closing holes down...especially when they are all playing 10-15 feet back on the grass because they have the arm strength....and the 3-man outfield can run like deer and have great arms as well. Then, with hitting.....most Major+ players can hit HR's as well as hit high OBP setting up the HR for their team mates.

Not trying to put non-Major+ players down.....just saying....the Major+ category is a fickle animal...in trying to get numbers up in tournaments....but keeping the Major "customers" (paying the entry fee) happy. Cheers!
April 29, 2015
ChileHead
29 posts
I manage a 55-AAA team that has played you guys a few times through the years Mr. "M", and would have no problem doing so again. I liken it to a test and to be the best, we need to play the best and every once in a while, we're gonna win. But in the meantime, I expose my players to truly good softball players that are well managed, make few mistakes and hit for both power and speed. To the teams that won't play you, it's too bad for the sport. Those are probably the same teams that play down in other organizations, just to win, which is truly pathetic. For the record, we will never do that and I'd like to see consistent ratings across the spectrum of senior softball. Keep on with it...
April 29, 2015
Fabe
Men's 60
418 posts
Mahalo for your comments on resourses...I agree. It will be difficult for any Hawaii team to reach the Major+ level because of it! We can field players from every Island with possible skill sets, yet to play together thru-out the year would be impossible. Thus, I look forward playiing with all my Braddahs I grew up with against the Young Guns n our yearly Vegas trip. Talent is a gift n can be improved with desire n hard work n to be able to recruit talent, play as a team that creates a very special team that can win at the highest level. However, I play with guys that I already have many eternal memories with n looking forward to creating many more. Have fun, play hard n enjoy the moments we have playing this great sport! Aloha, Fabe
April 29, 2015
Mario
Men's 50
451 posts
I believe that the only way to make it feasible for Major teams to move up is to get rid of the 2 out of region players for Major +. This would make it a more comfortable transition to plus. Like was said earlier in this thread most of the guys are taken that could be added to a Major team when they get bumped. I also know that the economics that it takes to play plus ball is the biggest factor in not having teams in tourneys. Teams that self sponsored do not have the resources to travel as much as required to play a good plus schedule. Lets face it, the plus division is what it is. Me personally believe that SSUSA and SPA have done a pretty good job at "trying" to make it better for everyone. I do wish that they would just duplicate the young kids ball as far as the HR rule. USSSA has done that this year. Their senior rule is Major 15 HRs and a DBW after that. A is 10 and a DBW, B is 8 and a DBW, C is 6 and a out, I did not look at the bottom 2 divisions. I for one want to make Plus ball a better division, but as I expierenced this past off season doesn't matter if you are a Plus player or not. If you don't have a team you will play on a Major team if needed. At least I will.
April 29, 2015
Mr. Manassas
244 posts
I know that it is a difficult problem in Senior ball......I appreciate what the major organizations try to do to manage this situation. I would like to end some more f the speculation about our team being sponsored..We are fortunate enough to have someone who's pays the entry fees but other than that all of our players pay their own way. So when an organization tells us to spend our own money to go to their tournament and play our other 65 team two out of three we feel that is ridiculous and will not do it.....And so it goes on and on......
June 15, 2015
Benji4
230 posts
So i'll throw this out:

This weekend in Hemet Team Rawlings who use to be a 50 major plus team until a few players quit and now is a major team, picks up 5 major plus players.

Team Rawlings enters as a major team and proceeds to take the runs or extra player despite having 5 major plus players playing.

My question:

Is team Rawlings reinforcing my theory of PUSSIFICATION by taking the runs or extra player despite half of it's team major plus players and the other 5 players the same players as when they were classified major plus prior?

And a new guy who once was a NFL running back who is still in great shape.

Just asking?

Rawlings lost other major plus players because of conflict with the coach. Now you pick up 5 different major plus guys for a tourney and still want to be a major team ????? And then refuse to play straight up.....I was just a fill in player but I thought this was totally BS.....


June 15, 2015
stick8
1784 posts
Mario just for the record in USSSA Class D it's 2 hr's with an out after.
In E it's an out, the inning is over and an offensive ejection.
June 15, 2015
AZ29
6 posts
Benji you hit the nail on the head. I could not agree more. The other question is does the tournament director have knowledge of this? Although it should be self policing of Rawlings and they should know better. Cherry picking at it's finest.
June 15, 2015
JDub
Men's 60
203 posts
Benji,

In the Grand Scheme of things, does it really matter ? ? ?
June 17, 2015
paul0784
Men's 60
218 posts
Any time you add 5 Major+ players to a Major roster that team should be told they have to play Major+ in the tourney by Sacramento? Sacramento correct me if I am wrong?
June 17, 2015
garyheifner
604 posts
We had a similar but different situation last year. We were the only 70 team signed up for the Northern Nationals. We had two choices. Get our money back or play 65 teams. With us being the only 70 team, our shot at getting a berth in the TOC was dead. We weren't going to the expense to go up there for a practice tournament.

I asked, but was denied, if we came, played all the games and took our pounding would we get the TOC berth. I think this is a situation that I feel a team should get a berth if they signed up in good faith. It would also give the TOC more teams
when I have seen guys complain about a lack of teams at the TOC>
June 17, 2015
So Cal Z
Men's 50
40 posts
Unfortunately this happens every time we play in one of that organizations tournaments. I'm not sure what it would take to monitor for a lack of better words, a teams roster to ensure we are all playing under the same guidelines. JDub I think it does matter, You have teams trying to compete and get better and on the other hand you have teams cheating just trying to win a small tourney. What happen to working hard and trying to play at the highest level, if your going to cheat the system, what does it matter if you win? To be the best you have to play the best, and if that means taking some lumps to get there I'm ok with that....
June 17, 2015
JDub
Men's 60
203 posts
SoCalZ,

I was just Ragging on Benji for being a Softball Ho! It only doesn't matter cuz the Tourney wasn't a SSUSA Sanctioned Tourney and it sounded like Benji was Ho'n on another Team (not his M+ Team). The Tourney was one of Marv's SoCal Senior Events which may not have been enforcing Roster(s) as Strictly as SSUSA does and it Rubbed Benji the Wrong Way (LOL) . . .

Have Fun, Play Ball & Be Safe ! ! !
June 17, 2015
Tim Millette
615 posts
Really....someone complaining about a not playing straight up in a back yard tourney???

In NorCal ncssa many times team give 3, 5, 7 runs and no one complains about it...after all...does it really matter who wins as long as you get to play a bunch of games....

I MEAN REALLY.....it's not like anyone is playing against a bunch of guys on PEDs;-)
June 17, 2015
Benji4
230 posts
Tim wasn't complaining only asking if picking up players and then taking the extra guy proves my PUSSIFICATION theory.

And before you pop off about PED's go do some research, get tested, try the therapy and then maybe your old saggy ass will feel and play better.

Until then just keep playing on lower level teams and underachieving.
June 17, 2015
donll
68 posts
Leave it to Tim to come to the aid of sandbaggers. You are the king of sandbaggers, crying for years about "it's not fair, they're too good, we need runs". Wah, wah, wah,. You left coast liberals always looking for handouts. For someone who keeps saying it doesn't matter if you win you spend a lot of energy trying to legislate wins.
June 18, 2015
Benji4
230 posts
donll. Well said . I totally agree.

Instead of try to get better just cry and whine about teams with too many good players.

Then legislate to break teams up after they win.....
June 19, 2015
Tim Millette
615 posts
Sorry to let you two in on a little secret (ok, I really am NOT sorry) but...
SSUSA BREAKS UP TEAMS ALL THE TIME for th good of SSUSA programs...

It's called...getting bumped...and once again...

I think SSUSA should bump major plus team just like they do AA, AAA, Major teams...

I'd allow Plus bumps to come back with no more then 6 bumped players or...if they want to stay intact they can compete in the next youngest Major program..being competitors they should have no problem wanting to face the younger competition...unless of coarse...they are scared;-)
June 20, 2015
Webbie25
Men's 65
2273 posts
I am always entertained and amazed at your posts, Tim, but this one takes the cake. Wow, SSUSA breaks up teams all the time for the good of SSUSA programs. Really? You are saying that when teams win consistently or place highly in worlds, or show by dominating the division they are in, that by moving them up SSUSA is breaking them up? Wow-does SSUSA tell them to break up? NO, of course not. SSUSA is not in the business of breaking up teams, by any stretch of the imagination. The teams make that decision. What a classic case of let's transfer the blame to the entity you seem to like to attack. They do the best they can to prevent sandbagging, and if you try to say that doesn't exist, that becomes just another little bubble you live in. They are not perfect in their assessments, but if they did not do this, teams would stay and dominate a division for many years. But I don't understand how you can't see that major plus is different. THERE IS NO HIGHER LEVEL, no place to be bumped to. Players at that level, (apparently except you) want to be the best in the world and beat the best out there. They work hard to be the best and I never (except for you) hear anyone talk of breaking up the top teams. You are the vocal minority (or maybe even the vocal one) for this issue. And you, yourself are an example of SSUSA getting it right at least most of the time on the issue, as you have now won a tourney at major plus after crying about how you wouldn't be able to compete. I'm amazed you didn't break up your team after that, as a way to prove your point. Oh, that's right, you believe a team like yours (although you have shown the ability to WIN at Major Plus) should be allowed to stay at a lower level just because you don't cut players to get better. Tim, you contradict yourself over and over. It's laughable. Get some cojones and play at major plus like a man, and stop trying to dumb down the division.
June 20, 2015
Tim Millette
615 posts
Now let's get some facts straight...

1) you never read me complain about playing plus..our team was moved up and stuck together..so let's forget your imagined fact of our softball teams history.

2) ssusa breaks up teams for the good of individual programs all the time...we know I was referring to bumping them to the next division and only allowing them to return with three player if they want to stay in the same division..

That rule breaks up the team if they decide to stay down/sorry if you could not comprehend that.

For plus ball...AGAIN...but a little slower for those of you challenged;-) I would treat the Plus bumps just like every other division..I would require Plus bumped teams to play the next season against the next lowest major age group if the chose to return with more then six players.

You see...unlike some, I would welcome a new rule to try to see if Plus ball could grow in numbers from the pitiful state most plus divisions are in...

Also...unlike many...I see nothing special in small groups of players dominating multiple years in Plus...there is a reason you don't hear about players collecting tons of rings winning the AA, AAA or Major divisions..they are not allowed to...and it's my belief that's why those divisions are healthier then Plus.
June 21, 2015
Webbie25
Men's 65
2273 posts
Like talking to a rock. Probably thinks cars kill people, not the people driving them.
June 21, 2015
Webbie25
Men's 65
2273 posts
In the interest of accuracy, I went back and reread threads and I owe you an apology on one count, Tim. What I took as complaining about being bumped the first time I read it was not. You were just saying you would have to play your tails off to win worlds. But that doesn't change the fact that if they hadn't bumped you, (and you did say that you had not qualified in your mind to be bumped), you would have been playing at a lower level when you have proved you are capable of winning at Plus. SSUSA made the right call on that one, and I think on most bumps. If teams choose not to compete at the higher level, that is THEIR problem, not SSUSA's. They probably should bump more.
I think the overriding issue is that you are saying that if a team feels they have no chance to win worlds at a level, they should not be there. When a team is bumped, at first it is a mental thing that teams have to get by. I have found that if a team plays their game at the higher level like they did before the bump, that they will compete just fine, and they will learn how to beat the better teams. It may take a while, and seniors are notoriously not as patient to learn as younger kids. How many times have i heard teams say they shouldn't be at the higher level, and when I asked how bad they got beat, they say 22-8, 24-6 and scores like that. I know that when they got bumped they had to have been scoring a heck of a lot more runs than that. They just don't play their game, and get beat badly. But, if they stay with it, eventually comes a game, or a tourney that they do play their game, wins some games and relax, and they have then made the step up. But it takes work.
Dave D. had a great post made personally back at the beginning of the year about his feelings on it. Maybe that would help people with what the thought process is on this issue. Dave, could I repost it, or will you?
June 21, 2015
Mango
Men's 50
154 posts
Webbie. Great post and spot on in your assessment of the one-man vocal minority aka Tim! Contrary to what Tim says SSUSA NEVER, I repeat NEVER has broken up a team. A lot of sandbagging teams choose to do that rather than play the next division up. And, is often the case, the real world and facts are strangers to Tim and his interpretations.

Despite Tim’s verbal protestations that teams must disband or cut players to compete at the next level the facts and reality are quite different. Now, if only I could give Tim an example of a team that was bumped up and didn’t disband or cut friends and managed to win. Hmmm….
Oh, and by the way-Tim –congratulations to you and your team for winning Reno, possibly the most prestigious SSUSA tournament of the year so far. Well done. Now if I could just come up with an example that Tim would be capable of seeing….
:-)
June 21, 2015
JDub
Men's 60
203 posts
Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, The Silence is Deafening ! ! !
June 21, 2015
Tim Millette
615 posts
I don't understand any of the talk on our team...

We never won an event at 50 major and were bumped, I would guess, because of runs scored...which didn't take into account how many runs we gave up because of of questionable defense. We were an older 50 team when we were bumped.

We played 50 Plus and never wrote or asked to be reclassed down even while winning maybe one game in the double slim bracket at worlds.

This year we won 55 Reno starting a team with 30% different defensive players...we are a young 55 team this season. Youth helps a lot...

Again....If Reno was instead the World, I would still be saying the Plus champion should only be allowed to come back with six champion players OR..if the chose, they could come back with more players but they would be required to play the next youngest Major program...


A 55 plus team, rightly, carries the same ranking as a 50 major team..with that, a 55 Champion returning to play 50 Major the next season would also be a YEAR OLDER..
June 21, 2015
Mango
Men's 50
154 posts
Tim I’m a little confused. You didn’t cut anyone or add new players yet you are 30% different defensively? It must be fantastic living in your world.

And I think its great you offering to make a lateral move to 50 majors. Not sure what a lateral move does for your argument that teams that win at the plus level should be “bumped” up. Do you mean “bumped” sideways?

Congratulations again to your team on winning at the Plus level despite your repeated claims you couldn’t.

By the way- I’m still working on trying to find an example for you of a team that was bumped, didn’t change personnel and managed to be competitive at the plus level…. Give me time; I’m sure I’ll come up with someone….
June 21, 2015
Tim Millette
615 posts
Mango,

Taking your points one at a time

1) 30% different...our team had two players that turn 55 next year..THEY VOLUNTEERED to sit out three tourneys this year so we could play 55 events. We also had another player quit/jump to the 55 varsity.. That's how we added three players..

2) fantastic living in my world...I would have to agree with that...I can only hope your life is going as good as mine..I feel blessed every day

3) lateral move by taking a bumped 55 Plus team into the 50 major until the next age group...in this instance it would be when the bumped team yes old enough to play in the 60 Plus division.
Your "kinda" right on that BUT...you fail to give recognition to the fact that age depletes abilities, especially after 55 for most players..with that said...
Using our team as an example..let's say next year our team was bumped under the senerio I mentioned...
Our average age this year is somewhere around 57 years old..next year we would average 58, the following year 59..I hope you can comprehend what Father Time would do to us and understand..very quickly/possible the very next season a 55 Plus champion team would not be a dominate 50 major team.

4) I will bet a $10,000 to your $1,000 that you will never find a written statement from me saying we never could win in 55 Plus ball....are you up for that bet mango?

now...if your talking about our 50 Plus team of the past...I was a firm believer
our team would have to play at an unbelievably high level while a dynasty type
teams would have to pay poorly for us to win at the 50 Plus world level...I think our record supports that belief.

5) on your teams getting bumped and staying together and competing goes...keep looking...I doubt very much a team exists...which...proves my point that SSUSA disbands teams all the time in an attempt to keep all other divisions healthy..

In closing...mango...I enjoy your attempt to take me on on these issues...it makes me have to support my views..while at the same time it makes you have to support your assumptions....I am sorry arguments like these have shown you and you assumptions to be...wanting...:-)
June 22, 2015
Webbie25
Men's 65
2273 posts
1. Why did you choose to move up to 55? You were leaving 2 friends behind. Another quitting? Trouble in paradise? 30% change and I will bet you went after quality players, too. Wow-sounds like you did upgrade and strengthen and now you are making it sound like you 'had to'. I seriously doubt that you took 'friends' that were less than Plus caliber.
2.Very smart men have pointed out before that a person living in a bubble will learn to like that bubble so much that he will fight any attempt to get him out of the bubble. You seem to like your bubble as much as anybody I ever saw, outside of politicians.
3.It makes no sense to take a 50 Major Plus team that moves to 55 and make it a major team,(lateral move) bumped or not. Again you contradict yourself.You say age makes you stronger at the next level.Your own team again makes this point against you by winning in Reno.Yet you wanted to move down? Another one SSUSA got right. Your next paragraph sounds like political rambling. Are you saying that as a Plus team get older within it's bracket is should be automatically downgraded to Major because of age? I have played on 2 teams now at 2 different levels that were very old for the age group we played in-and did very well. In 2009, at 50AAA, the Desperadoes, with the same team that had won 2 games in 2 years at world's in 2007 and 2008, came in 3rd out of 20+ teams, despite having at least 5 players over 60 and only 3 under 55. In 2012, at 60 M+ GSF came in second to Hollis with 6 guys at or around 65. Age alone is only one factor.
4. One more time-SSUSA does not disband teams-they choose not to compete at the next level after reaching SSUSA's criteria to be bumped. Yet you are advocating that they should not be bumped. Aren't you then creating the 'dynasty' for them that you seem to fight so hard against here?
5. Dave published a list of winners of worlds for the last few years. Which teams are dynasties? I don't see any-and as you say-age will deplete those dynasties.

Mango won, hands down.

But, you are the vocal majority of one. I salute you for your effort.
June 22, 2015
Webbie25
Men's 65
2273 posts
Mr. Manassas, we are frustrated also that we cannot play you, Hollis, and other fine teams more. With the poor economy and rising prices and the fact that you are so far away, it just isn't going to happen. For years I have paid my own way from Albuquerque to tournaments, and the cheapest ones from here, if I want to take my wife and partner, reach close to $1000. Dalton would have pushed $1500 plus time off from work. Maybe teams could get together and choose one major tourney somewhere in the middle of the country to meet once a year, instead of either Dalton, or Las Vegas, or Orlando. SSUSA tries to bump teams, but it is a difficult thing to do at Plus, because it ups the budget, too. We haven't found an answer yet that I like-or apparently that you guys like either.
See you in Vegas.
June 22, 2015
donll
68 posts
If this were a heavy weight fight I could hear Howard Cosell “down goes Millette, down goes Millette, down goes Millette…..

If it were a softball game it would be called on the mercy rule. Mango, no need to respond- you’ve won by mercy rule!

And as for Tim’s gobbledygook double speak about “father time”- don’t “dynasty teams” get older too? Are you suggesting then they should be able to stay in the same division with your “lateral bump” scenario because they got older?Here's an idea-why not just stay in their own division?

Game called-Run Rule!
June 22, 2015
Tim Millette
615 posts
Webbie I will take your points one by one

1) Our team moving to 55 for SSUSA...

*!No we didn't leave two players behind...as a matter of fact...one of them was the most vocal for us to go 55..they both can play around 13 tourneys with us.

*yes we added quality people that are good players.

2) bubble boy....please give examples of what your assumptions are of what my bubble looks like....that way we can see if your theory is true..as it reads now...it's just an open attack with no points...PLEASE LIST THEM FOR ME!

3) taking a 50 Plus team and moving to 55 major...

Webbie....I think this must be one of your senior moments..our team never thought about moving down to 55 major ball...PLEASE LIST AN EXAMPLE OF US WANTING TO DROP TO 55 major?

4) part of this kinda makes sense...the rest I don't understand...maybe you can clarify for me.
My belief on bumping is...it helps the health of every division it's used in and I think it should be added to the Plus program. My answer is..tell the bumped Plus teams they can stay together (more then 6 returning players) and start playing the next youngest Major division or..like all the other divisions, they can return to the division they were bumped from with 6 or less Plus players.



5) I don't look at team names...I look at players names...as an example of this..there are players walking around NorCal proudly displaying 23-30 rings...almost all of them won at the Plus level/I could care less what the name of their teams was...it's the fact they are allowed to dominate as such a rate is what I consider a problem with Plus ball.

6)!mango winning hands down...PLEASE LIST THE POINTS HE WON.

So there you go Webbie...you threw out some arguements...if you want to try to validate them with facts or at least throw out your assumptions I will reply.

In closing...what I find amazing in all this is...my assumption....that the guys so upset with my idea on bumping plus teams is attacked by the exact people that put so much value into a meaningless softball ring...that speaks volumes
June 22, 2015
Nancy Allen
Men's 55
1331 posts
Benji4, I guess that you did not get my subtle hint last time and have now used your word 2 more times. Female anatomy has nothing to do with what you are trying to describe. So please find another word or analogy. You are lucky because I have you with 3 strikes on this and would be ejecting you immediately. How would you like it if I was trying to describe something stupid and made up a word referring to male body parts to describe it? Would it seem sexist to you then? These are my opinions only, but would you talk like this in front of your mother, wife, or daughters?
June 22, 2015
Dbax
Men's 60
1879 posts
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzz
June 22, 2015
LeeLee50
140 posts
Tim,

doesn't lie or cheat, he just states his opinion and how he truly feels. In regards to his team and teammates all of that is 100% true.
June 22, 2015
Mulewhipper
Men's 55
128 posts
Leon speaks the truth...WYSIWYG.

June 22, 2015
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1223 posts
Webbie, you are 100 percent wrong on Tim's team wanting to move to 55 major... wasn't even on his wish list! for the record, I don't believe in breaking up any team... however, not bringing enough teams up to the Major Plus division makes it to easy for the dynasty team to win.. If they had to go through 40 or 50 teams instead of the 3 to 6 teams that show up.. might be a big difference..IMO.. Another aspect is that SSUSA would be keeping the non Dynasty teams happy by having other competition other than getting their ass's handed to them by the Dynasty teams..
June 23, 2015
Webbie25
Men's 65
2273 posts
Hi Swing. Thanks for setting me straight on that. It did seem like that was what he wanted to do. The point I tried to make, I guess, was that he did move up in age, strengthened, and won. That is the way to do it at Plus.I don't believe in breaking up a team either, but you HAVE to move teams up or they will form their own dynasties at lower levels. And TEAMS make the decision to break up, not SSUSA.
Swing, did you see the list of winners Dave put out in January or February? There are no real dynasty teams at M+. I don't think winning 1 or 2 years constitutes a dynasty. It seems getting older takes care of that as younger teams come into the age bracket, and it seems to accelerate as you get older.
MOST RECENT FIVE YEARS SSUSA WORLD CHAMPIONS

50-MAJOR PLUS
• 2014 - DLB (WI)
• 2013 - Nazzareno Electric (CA)
• 2012 - NW Legends (WA)
• 2011 - Line Drive/Salsa Bombers (MI)
• 2010 - Seacrest Mavericks (CA)

55-MAJOR PLUS
• 2014 - Summy's Nighthawks (CA)
• 2013 - MTC Softball 55 (CA)
• 2012 - MTC Softball 55 (CA)
• 2011 - Hendricks Sports Management (TX)
• 2010 - OLR Nighthawks (CA)

60-MAJOR PLUS
• 2014 - Superior Senior Softball (VA)
• 2013 - Hollis Appraisals (FL)
• 2012 - Hollis Appraisals (FL)
• 2011 - MTC Softball 60 (CA)
• 2010 - GSF (A)

65-MAJOR PLUS
• 2014 - Full Circle (AZ)
• 2013 - Hamel/Superior Softball (VA)
• 2012 - Hamel/Turn Two (VA)
• 2011 - Omen 65 (CA)
• 2010 - Florida Legends/Human Kinetics

I just don't see dynasties here-but consistently good teams. And certainly nothing worth doing what Tim thinks should be done.
June 23, 2015
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1223 posts
Webbie, although these results show your point, it is not indicative of the true example of dynasty.. if you were to take all the SSUSA Tourneys and show the results, I think you would get a better Idea of the Dynasty teams.. plus the fact second and third place teams not listed... you will find these teams Tim spoke of every year. The real discussion here is how do you build a better Major plus division... My team played in a 50 Major plus tourney a few weeks ago and took second, we didn't even win a game! LOL We had All Tourney guys for that tourney too.. What a Joke! This is the problem with the plus division.. to Fix it you need to move up more teams so that there is someone to play instead of the 2 to 6 teams that play 50plus ball!
June 23, 2015
Webbie25
Men's 65
2273 posts
Right, swing-and therein lies the dilemma-if you bump a team they break up and won't enter the Plus division. If you don't, there are not enough teams. I still think finishing second or third does not constitute a dynasty. And I think teams would holler loud and long, and rightfully so, if they finished third in Worlds, were declared a dynasty, and broken up for the 'good' of the game. And that puts us back to square one in this debate.

For those of you who do decide not to play up to Plus and disband, I would like to point to Arizona Rogue 60 M+ as an example. These men are my friends, also. They got bumped last year to M+. Despite losing their leadoff man, very fast left fielder and coach, their top tough pitcher, and a couple other guys, they have chosen to play tourneys and try to build a winning team. They are competitive, and fight hard. They have beaten everyone in the west so far at least once, I think, and continue to fight. If teams that get bumped and break up would hang in there and give it a go like Rogue has-I think you would see some very good success stories.

And the debate goes on..........
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