http://seniorsoftball.com/?page=12

 
SIGN IN:   Password     »Sign up

Message board   »Message Board home    »Sign-in or register to get started

Online now: 0 members ; 51 anonymous
Change topic:

Discussion: SSUSA how can we get reclassed? MTC 50 2014 major Plus

Posted Discussion
July 15, 2015
Tim Millette
615 posts
SSUSA how can we get reclassed? MTC 50 2014 major Plus
I heard tonight that the Warriors 2014 team was reclassed down to 50 major and I was wondering how our MTC 50 Plus team that didn't win a game in two consecutive years of major plus Double elim brackets at Plus worlds can get reclassed to 50 majors also.
The Warriors faired better then us at last years world and placed higher then we ever did at 50 Plus World and rock and roll Reno.
How do we get reclassed down? Who does our 2014 MTac Plus team contact?
July 16, 2015
SSUSA Staff
2945 posts
Teams desiring a change in rating must submit a Ratings Appeal package. The forms are available in this website from the menu bar at TOURNAMENTS ► FORMS ► Rating appeal. Rating appeals are evaluated, and either granted or denied, on a case by case basis two times per year. The next ratings cycle will occur following the conclusion of the World Masters Championships in early October, prior to the Winter Nationals and Winter Worlds events in November.
July 16, 2015
Mr. Nick
Men's 55
41 posts
Tim, good luck with getting re-rated. Per the guidelines used by SSUSA, they can re-rate a team after 3 tournaments. Our team just got re-rated (AAA to Major 50) after 2 tournaments. I have asked for an explanation but no response yet. I'm also surprised that the Warriors were re-rated to 50 Major.
July 16, 2015
Kyphogt
Men's 50
26 posts
Mr Nick-our team, Silva Advertising(K&B Construction 2014/McWorlds 2013), just got re-rated (50 AAA to 50 Major) as well one week before the Northeast Championships. We asked for an explaination on 7/1 and still have not heard back. SSUSA stated the reason we got moved up was due to "performance of +5.5 runs per game in 12 games against AAA".... problem is we are only +.75 runs in last 12 games against 50AAA(total + 9 runs). Numbers dont lie and they are posted on SSUSA site for last 12 games including 2014 Vegas where we went 3-3 with pretty much same team as last year in 2015+- a guy or 2. I figured they made a simple mistake with scrubbing the numbers...as did numerous teams we saw in Syracuse who feel we got a raw deal. Our goal was to have a great season and warrant the bump up to 50 major post Worlds. In 2015 We played in a very small local tournament (CT Masters) with only 3 50 AAA teams (1 new team and 1 local team) and we won our very first tournament ever in the "IF" game by 3 runs...we were moved up shortly thereafter.
We had to play this past weekend in the Northeast Championships in 50 Major and we were in way over our head when it came to bracket play( when it counts) losing by 10-16 runs range against the other experienced 50 Major teams. Unfortunately , as a team that has been together for 3 yrs, we agreed that we cannot compete at the 50 Major level without dismantling our team which is not what we want to do. We agreed that we cant see spending the $ to travel to vegas or any other tournament when you know you , realistically, dont have a chance to be competitive in the division you are assigned. Best of luck Mr NIck
July 16, 2015
LeeLee50
140 posts
Kyphogt,

I noticed you mention that you lost by an average 10-16 runs a game in the Northeast Championships. What was your overall record and if you did win some games who did you beat just curios. To me there just seems to be variables to look at then losing by 10-16 runs a game. You also just pickup 1 or 2 new guys, what's there ranking or past experience. Who knows maybe they are Major Plus chips which forced you to be bumped, just saying.
July 16, 2015
maurice
9 posts
Hope the Warriors are OK. I noticed as Runner up in Rockin Reno this year against all Major Plus teams they went 4-2 losing only to tournament champions Sommerville. Something dramatic must have happened to their team for them to fall back down to Major in a month. They must have lost a bunch of players. I’m sure they must have more than 3 plus players since their whole team was plus last season. And I think they played 500 ball at the Plus Worlds last year losing only to Champion DLB and again Sommerville. If their team can play at that level the move seems puzzling. They must have lost several core players.
July 16, 2015
Kyphogt
Men's 50
26 posts
LeeLee50-I agree with your point about variables but one thing I have learned pretty quickly in my 2nd yr in Senior Ball is that results on a Friday or Saturday (Round Robin) many times are by no means a real indicator of the true quality of a team..The bracket games are the true indicator from what I have seen.

Our overall record was 3-3 in Syracuse with wins coming against a team that really should not be in Majors but they caught "lightening in a bottle" at Worlds last year and got the autobump and a round robin game against a major team that rested some regulars as they say.
As far players are concerned We lost a very good hitter(top 3 hitter) from last year who went to a Major team and we brought in 2 brand new to Senior Ball players (50 and 52) who are solid players but definitely not Major Plus players. We did not add anyone from higher divisions...

Again, this move up had nothing to do with Syracuse it came after the 3 team tourney in CT and winnning the "If" game against a local team...Syracuse only confirmed that we are AAA team

July 16, 2015
LeeLee50
140 posts
Every dog has it's day, just like you said caught lighting in a bottle couldn't you guys had a bad tournament in Syracuse ? Just asking in 2014 LV you guys finished in or a little above the middle of the pack of a 62 team tournament and scored over 20 runs in 3 games and 38 in another, you also look like you went flat a couple of games single digits. I just think this is much harder than it looks to determine these decisions. SSUSA is trying to do the right thing.
July 16, 2015
Kyphogt
Men's 50
26 posts
We actually played very well in Syracuse. The difference between AAA and Major is hitting. Only 1 game did we hit all HR's (nice wind blowing out). All other games we hit 0, 1 or 2 Hr's as we always do as AAA. As far as last yr Worlds your numbers are correct..middle of the pack and a high of 38 runs and a low of 2 runs in 1 bracket game. Middle of the pack does not warrant a bump up. I agree SSUSA is doing the best they can and we love playing we're just wondering where their numbers came from where they say the reason we are being moved to Major is due to a +5.5 avg over 12AAA games when it is actually +.75 . If we were winning by that margin over last 12 games we would have won a couple of tourny's and most likely a top 10 in Worlds
July 17, 2015
Mulewhipper
Men's 55
128 posts
Thanks for your concern Maurice...but the Warriors are just fine health wise.
You really should get more information though before judging how and where a team should be rated...not just looking at standings in any given tournament.
July 17, 2015
maurice
9 posts
Mulewhipper- Glad to hear everyone is healthy. I agree that more information is often needed than just won loss record when a team is moved. Other than poor performance against teams in their division its usually personnel- either adding players or losing players
That's why I assumed that the Warriors must have lost players to be moved down after holding their own at the Plus worlds just a few months ago then by beating all the plus competition at Reno with the exception of the loaded Sommerville team.

It sounds like you may know the warriors, so if its not a loss of players or performance against plus teams, what else could it be?
July 17, 2015
LeeLee50
140 posts
I would think W and L must be considered, the objective of the game is to win. So whether you win by one or 20 why should it matter. If you are not winning any games or very few then yes review run differential. A couple teams in one division can really skew the run differential, example you in Reno you went for and 4-3 and all your losses were to Sommerville and they scored 90 runs in those 3 games and you scored 45. You also be every other team in the bracket.
July 17, 2015
SSUSA Staff
2945 posts
For the complete rating evaluation process and criteria, take a look at the priority post above (the last one, with 10,600+ views) titled TEAM RATINGSGuidelines & Procedures ... Changes that result from roster composition issues arising from adding out of rating players are under the complete control of the Managers of the affected teams, not SSUSA ...
July 17, 2015
LeeLee50
140 posts
Thank you
July 17, 2015
Mulewhipper
Men's 55
128 posts
Maurice, I didn't say won loss record, I said "final Standings"

Take for instance the Reno tournament you mentioned...you say we beat every other team in the bracket...but just who were those teams? There were only 4 teams in the bracket...so we beat:
1. East Bay Oldies (we play all the time in Nor Cal)
2. Nazareno
I believe all those wins were very close games...and I also believe Nazareno wasn't at full strength.

Then there was Western Nationals, where we took 2nd place by default...as there was only 2 Major Plus teams...and oh by the way we went 0-5 and lost to 3 Major teams in that very same tournament.

As for the Worlds LAST YEAR...well I don't recall exactly, but I think we went 2-2 and our 2 wins were also very, very close.

So as you can see, there are lots of other circumstances that come into play than just looking at the final standings.
July 17, 2015
Tim Millette
615 posts
I believe the Warriors are just the latest example of what happens when you don't make the Plus champions follow the same rules that every other division is held to in a process of turning over the top teams.

If the last five 50 Plus champions were held to one of these two choices (return with no more then Six Plus champions till you reach the next age group on your roster or move to the next youngest Major program) the Warriors very well would still be trying to play Plus ball.

Turning over the top works well in every other level..I still cannot understand why SSUSA doesn't try it for five year in Plus ball?

Then again...I don't know all the Plus sponsors so maybe...a few of them are part of the inner circle.
July 18, 2015
SSUSA Staff
2945 posts
Tim: [1] The Warriors are only the latest example (along with 16 other teams) that actually following the procedures and process of filing a timely rating appeal can be successful, in the appropriate circumstances, by being GRANTED by the National Ratings Committee ... Nothing more, nothing less ... [2] Rules changes, such as those you appear to favor regarding the Major Plus divisions roster composition, are discussed and enacted only once per year, at the National Rules Committee sessions at the annual SSUSA Convention ... This year's convention is in Reno from December 1-4, 2015 ... ALL Rules Committee sessions are open to the public and you are welcome to participate and make your presentation for consideration ... You will need the support of two of the 13-member Committee, for a motion and a second, to get on the formal discussion agenda, and will have to be able to count to seven thereafter to effect any change ... [3] There are no Major Plus sponsors on either the National Ratings or Rules Committees, nor is there anything that could remotely be construed as an "inner circle" ...


July 18, 2015
Tim Millette
615 posts
Staff...all I was pointing out is...

if SSUSA treated the Plus division like every other division (champion and dominant teams get player restrictions if they want to return to Plus ball OR are allowed to stay together and play the next youngest Major division) you just might be able to grow the program.

Here you have a team in the Warriors that came in second in Reno and yet they are reclassed..maybe...as an example...of summersville players were held to the same standard as the other divisions you could grow the Plus level.

what I meant by inner circle was...senior summit stuff????? Have there been any senior summit advisors associated with multi world winning Plus champions?
July 18, 2015
SSUSA Staff
2945 posts
The Senior Softball Summit appears to be merely an historical footnote ... Their last meeting was at least six or seven years ago, maybe longer ... Reno in December is the place to make your case, since Message Board commentary is totally disregarded in terms of Rules Committee agenda composition ...
July 18, 2015
Tim Millette
615 posts
I don't really want to push for anything in senior ball.. In. NorCal we are blessed with ncssa along with some of your SSUSA events.

If there comes a day we believe we have been taken advantage of by our SSUSA rankings I will be happy to just play ncssa...

Why I mentioned plus dominant teams having sway is...it's the only explaination I can come up with the figure out why you guys have not tried to implement in Plus what is working well in every other division.
July 18, 2015
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1223 posts
well Tim, since you don't push here but maybe you push in NorthCal.. how about getting rid of the stupid miles rule... My team is getting sick and tired of playing the first games Sat and the last game sun! How about getting the Ready character to stop putting us facing the sun at 630 pm three straight years..
July 18, 2015
Tim Millette
615 posts
I agree the sun has been an issue a few times but it has more to do with that field being the biggest field at the complex. As far as the mileage thing goes...it is all computer generated and is based on your teammates residence.

Most of our guys are from one area..I think many of your guys live 40+ miles apart...that might have something to do with the schedule times
July 19, 2015
The Tone
5 posts
Well, I have been playing senior ball for 9 years and still don't get he classification.
We put a 50 AAA team ( Sports Center )together in 2011 from RI, MA, & NH. That year we won the AAA Worlds in Phoenix, AZ. The following year we wwere bumped to Major, played in 3 or 4 tournaments and didn't do that well,but went to Vegas and had a good weekend going 6-2 losing to ENR, who won it and MTC who finished 3rd.
We got moved to Major plus and went 0-4 at the worlds in 2013. We have broken up our team and most play 55 on different teams because we are all Major Plus players( which we are not) we had 12 guys on our Sports Center team 9 average height 5'9" and weighing 17o lbs. It has been 2 years since we played Plus.
When do we get re-rated so some of our guys can play at the level they can compete?
July 19, 2015
LeeLee50
140 posts
Tone,

The first thing you have to is get on the website and complete the form and send it in prior to the due dates.

Tim,

We never appealed or filled out the form so it isn't anyone faults
but are own.

July 19, 2015
Tim Millette
615 posts
Lee, I was not saying it was anyone fault as far as paperwork goes but...I would think SSUSA would be as proactive with its re ranking DOWN as it is with its re rank UP.

I think we knew we could compete as a young 55plus team so we didn't try to get reclassed after our two dismal showing at 50 Plus worlds.

Then again...I am starting to believe SSUSA has very little interested in doing anything with Plus ball...it's looking like they are in the...as long as it doesn't hurt Major ball who cares mode.

On that subject...I would have though SSUSA being proactive would obviously have reclassed us down after going 0-4 in our two Plus worlds bracket play..everyone knows the seeding games mean nothing..heck...most of the time everyone plays thier whole roster and saves players legs by playing a four man outfield during those games.
July 20, 2015
Mulewhipper
Men's 55
128 posts
----"This year's convention is in Reno from December 1-4, 2015 ... ALL Rules Committee sessions are open to the public and you are welcome to participate"----

Interesting, this would be good to attend, will there be an agenda published?
July 20, 2015
SSUSA Staff
2945 posts
Mulewhipper: Typically, the Rules Committee Chairperson (this year it's Donna McGuire from MO) will circulate to the Rules Committee items of written or email correspondence that have been received throughout the year from the membership ... She will also include items submitted by Committee Members to their fellow members ... Please note that Message Board commentary is specifically excluded for agenda purposes, so if there is something you would like to be considered by the group, handle your written input ahead of time or, in a better approach, please appear and contribute ... These issues are all discussed informally in the opening Rules Committee Session, and if there is enough interest (meaning a Motion to Consider and a Second to that motion), the item is added to the formal Agenda ... Accordingly, there is no pre-published formal agenda ...

All sessions are open to the public, and last year the Chairperson allowed public input even in the voting sessions (where, of course, only the rules Committee Members vote) ... The entire process is very transparent, and several posters here have attended in the past ... Maybe they will share their observations ...

July 20, 2015
Mango
Men's 50
154 posts
Regarding Tim’s one man quest to change Senior Softball.

Tim- I try to resist but I can’t help myself.

Tim’s words in quotes.

“The Warriors are just the latest example of what happens when you don’t make the Plus champions follow the same rules….” * The Warriors record when playing past plus champions this past year was 3-1. They went 1-1 against the Legends and 2-0 against Nazzareno. Their 2 loses to DLB at the Worlds were before DLB had won the championship. Sommerville only has 6 past champion players. That’s a .750 winning percentage against past champions. Not sure they would want to banish those teams.

“Turning over the top works well in every other division….” No-it doesn’t. Not if you are basing success on number of teams in a classification at the Worlds. 2014 Worlds 50 division- 15 teams at Plus; 31 teams at Major; 62 teams at AAA; 8 teams at AA. Explain how the numbers in AA supports your theory.

Tim you make a fundamental attribution error. You’ve cherry picked one thing that happens in one division and not another and believe that is the cause of participation differences between those divisions. If turning over the top is what grows a division, how come AA doesn’t have the same robust number of teams as the middle divisions? Could it be something other than your oft-repeated mantra? Could it be that turning over the top in the outlier groups actually shrinks participation?

There could be other differences that may come into play that make the Warriors not fond of Plus. Here are two more plausible suggestions than having a .750 winning percentage against past champions: 1) Like-giving yours, as well as other 50 major teams, a basket of equalizers instead of playing them straight up in SSUSA as well as your local play. Perhaps you could start a push to lessen the equalizers for recently moved up teams when playing out of their division. That might help grow the division. 2) The paucity of teams in the Plus division.

“I don’t want to push for anything in senior ball…” Really Tim? Really?

“I still cannot understand…” Yes Tim, I know. :-)
July 20, 2015
Tim Millette
615 posts
So Mango..I guess your saying you don't think the Warriors record warranted them getting dropped to Major???
July 20, 2015
Tim Millette
615 posts
Mango..since the Warriors have such a good showing in Plus and were reclassed down to Major..do you think every other Plus team with an inferior on field record as the Warriors should automatically be immediately reclassed down when they ask..ie...should the Warriors on field record be the standard of being reclassed?
I have not looked into their record but it looks like you did some good research.
July 20, 2015
Mario
Men's 50
451 posts
Maybe I'm missing something here, in the 50 Major plus division we have had the following winners since I started playing in the Plus division
2011 Somerville
2012 Northwest Legends
2013 Nazzareno
2014 DLB
Can someone explain to me where the dynasty Tme is reffering to here?
July 20, 2015
Mango
Men's 50
154 posts
Tim- the gist of my post above was twofold. One- that your oft-repeated cockamamie "turn over the top" theory has more holes than a colander. No one is buying it. NO ONE. Two -,alternate reasons why some teams are reluctant to play in the Plus division.

Your position seems to suggest or imply that the Warriors are "afraid" to play the top teams in their age group. I can tell you from personal experience that is not the case! We played them several times and every time they came ready to play. They are a very good team. They laced up their cletes , grabbed their gloves and bats and came out and played good hard softball. There was no quit in them.

Once you recognize and admit the error and folly of your colander theory you could devote your considerable time and energy to pushing for an exemption or easing of the basket of equalizers newly moved up teams must hand out when playing teams outside their classification. Think "transitioning period".

That is, if you're not averse for " pushing for anything in senior ball".
July 20, 2015
Tim Millette
615 posts
Mario, I guess I am not just looking at the plus world winner.

Almost all of the major teams that get bumped to Plus are not world winners...the list is endless.

I also am not just looking at the 50 age group...plus ball is not healthy and something needs to be tried.

Mango..maybe you need to defeat my posts..I never mentioned the Warriors being scared.

Once you recognize and admit the error of your folly in regards to the Plus programs being healthy....oh...I forgot you just hinted you agree with me that something must be tried in the Plus divisions....I guess our disagreement is in what should be tried...I say use what helps every other division and your advocating to re event the wheel with some handicap system.
Sept. 15, 2015
Mulewhipper
Men's 55
128 posts
Looks like you found out the answer to your original question Tim...good luck in your new reclassed division.
Sign-in to reply or add to a discussion or post your own message and start a new discussion. If you don't have a message board account, please register for a free nickname. It will only take a moment.
Senior Softball-USA
Email: info@SeniorSoftball.com
Phone: (916) 326-5303
Fax: (916) 326-5304
9823 Old Winery Place, Suite 12
Sacramento, CA 95827
Senior Softball-USA is dedicated to informing and uniting the Senior Softball Players of America and the World. Senior Softball-USA sanctions tournaments and championships, registers players, writes the rulebook, publishes Senior Softball-USA News, hosts international softball tours and promotes Senior Softball throughout the world. More than 1.5 million men and women over 40 play Senior Softball in the United States today. »SSUSA History  »Privacy policy

Follow us on Facebook

Partners