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Online now: 2 members: RGainley, TABLE SETTER 11; 85 anonymousDiscussion: Another Safe or out Question
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| Aug. 26, 2015 wazoo Men's 65 97 posts | Another Safe or out Question Recently playing in the SSUSA Birmingham Southern Championship bracket game and the outfield umpire told the man on 1st that their was 2 outs which their was only 1. The next batter hits a fly ball to left center which is caught,the man on 1st takes off running thinking their is 2 outs which we turn the double play due to the umpire mistake. The umpire called him safe due to his mistake, we appealed to the director of the tournament which agreed with the original call.The director said theirs nothing in the SSUSA rule book regarding to the problem. I have played hardball & softball all my life & I was shocked by the director answer,I assume that all softball associations put the responsibility on keeping up with the outs on the teams competing. |
| Aug. 27, 2015 B.J. 1106 posts | as an umpire, you have to take responsibility for your actions on the field.... yes you should correct the situation that you had caused in the first place, put the runner back at 1st and NOW you have 2 outs |
| Aug. 27, 2015 BruceinGa Men's 70 3233 posts | I disagree with BJ, double play. Although I have heard of "do overs", I don't believe it is mentioned in the rules. |
| Aug. 27, 2015 Turbo 34 Men's 50 47 posts | Sure wish we had that umpire where we play. We had bases loaded and two outs, I ask the umpire before stepping in the box to check with the scorekeeper about our home run situation. We were allowed six then outs. He calls up to the press box and she says we have one left. I hit a home run and the other teams coach runs out of the dugout screaming out three. He shows his book to the ump who takes it up to the scorekeeper. Their coach had marked an extra home run on a player that had hit a triple and scored on a sac in the first inning. The scorekeeper had not circled 3B so she could not remember. The ump ended up calling me out for the third out. That was in the bottom of the 7th and us down two runs. Crazy game. |
| Aug. 27, 2015 swing for the fences Men's 50 1224 posts | I agree with BJ... anytime a umpire can correct a bad call, kudos to them.. I don't ever get on umpires for calls.. I figure if my team is good enough we should overcome anything an umpire might call.. If the umpire tells the other team he made a mistake, it should be over with. Runner put back to the base he started on and no do over but a recorded out on the fly..IMO |
| Aug. 27, 2015 B.J. 1106 posts | Bruce.....this isn't a do over...the umpire by his own error put the runner in jeopardy for telling him that there were 2 outs...TURBO34 In every SSUSA tour. that I have umpired the umpires on the field are responsible for keeping track of runs,hr's and courtesy runners....what they record each inning is the official score....and each 1/2 inning they should check with home and visiting team to make sure all agree...again if they made the mistake on the HR count they need to eat it and learn from their mistake... the only time a team should be penalized is if at the pre-game meeting at home plate the umpires told both teams that THEY were responsible for keeping track of this |
| Aug. 27, 2015 mck71 Men's 60 344 posts | As an umpire for over 20 years, I believe it is my responsibility to get the call right. If I gave the wrong information, it is on me to make that right, regardless of the rules. I agree with BJ I would have called an out and sent runner back to 1st base. As for the HR's, I ALWAYS keep track of that as well as score(index cards in my pocket)and communicate that with both teams at end of each inning so I would have never had to ask the scorekeeper (actually have never worked in a tourney where there was a scorekeeper so not sure if that is a blessing or not? lol) |
| Aug. 27, 2015 BruceinGa Men's 70 3233 posts | This reminds me of a situation that a friend encountered. After a few pitches to him he asked the umpire what the count was. Umpire responded 2-1. My friend took the next pitch and the pitcher said that was strike three. Umpire agreed and called him out. The umpire said "sorry". I guess that time the umpire didn't feel the need to make it right. |
| Aug. 27, 2015 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | Not even going to comment on the umpire part. I have lost counts a couple of times, but I don't have a story to tell. I did ring a batter up one time in a 0-0 count when I was doing a lot of 1-1. My indicator was right, but my brain said strike 3. I apologized, and he then had 2 strikes and didn't have a heart attack. This is a good example of why every team needs their own reliable scorekeeper and why I always kept our team's every game, and they (almost) always relied on me for outs, home runs, courtesy runners, therapy, etc. |
| Aug. 27, 2015 BruceinGa Men's 70 3233 posts | Agreed Nancy! One of the teams that I played with this year would only keep our own score. They would keep up with hr's but not who hit them or when. The never would keep track of courtesy runners. You could imagine the problems that this lead to. |
| Aug. 27, 2015 Webbie25 Men's 70 2414 posts | I would call an out on the fly ball, batter back to first base because I, as the authority in the game, told him there were two hours. I made the mistake, it is a correctable mistake, and I put him back on first base. On the home run I also correct my mistake, but it would be controversial. As a hitter in senior softball I know I would swing differently knowing I had one home run left, compared to having no home runs left. when the mistake in home run count was pointed out, I would give the batter a do over and take the heat for it. |
| Aug. 27, 2015 The Screamer5 Men's 60 69 posts | Another good one! As unfortunate as it sounds, the umpire shouldn't try to undo what has happened on the field of play, even if he or she helped to cause it like was stated above. Can you imagine all the potential problems that could occur when we, as umpires start doing that? The umpire will just have to eat that one and take the heat that will surely come from the team at bat. I know I've lost count a few times over the years. It's going to happen. Of course, the fair and just thing to do would be to do as some of you suggested. (Call an out on the fly ball and put the runner back safely on first base.) But its not about trying to even things out. The umpire made a mistake, period...but the result of the play should remain exactly as it occurred, in my opinion. |
| Aug. 27, 2015 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | This is not an NA opinion, but my 2 man partner would say, you screwed the pooch. Eat it, and live with it. He has umpired 48 years, and I respect my elders. |
| Aug. 28, 2015 stick8 1991 posts | Imagine the championship game of the SSUSA Worlds in Las Vegas. The visiting team, team A is up 1 in the bottom of the 7th and this happens. They win the world tournament!! Or so they think. It's disclosed the umpire told the runner on first there were 2 outs and is not calling a double play. Now there are 2 outs and the next batter hits a walk off hr to win the tournament for team B. Imagine how you feel if your on team A. Unless there is a rule I'm not familiar with I'm sorry but in this situation team A wins because there was actually 1 out on the fly ball. This ruling penalizes team A twice--they lose an out and a world title they properly won. Yes, the umpire in this situation has to eat crow--a lot of crow. This is why you have scorekeepers!! |
| Aug. 28, 2015 B.J. 1106 posts | STAFF...I would like to know what your ruling would be....as an umpire would you place the runner back at 1st to correct your mistake...or eat the call and allow the double play and tell the runner sorry I made a mistake on the number of outs???? |
| Aug. 28, 2015 SSUSA Staff 3489 posts | B.J., we agree with you ... We were informed by the Tournament Director about this play/call, but only after the fact later that evening ... There are a lot of "SHOULD" items here ... The umpire(s) should have known the number of outs, same is true for both managers, maybe the first base coach, certainly the scorekeeper(s), if there were, any and the baserunner ... Obviously, not all were anywhere close to being on the same page ... The former "correctable umpire error" provisions are no longer in the rulebook ... And "do-overs" should be avoided under almost all circumstances ... So, with the benefit of 20-20 hindsight, and acknowledging the umpire error that the runner detrimentally relied upon, the best outcome/ruling SHOULD have been: "What would the most likely outcome have been if everyone had the outs straight?" ... We believe that the fly ball caught for an out is proper, along with a presumption that the runner on 1st base would have stayed put or only gone far enough to get back safely ... We would, if faced with this situation again, have placed the runner back on first base and played on, following an apology ... It's not a perfect solution, but one that seems reasonably fair to all parties ... Let the debate continue! ... |
| Aug. 28, 2015 The Screamer5 Men's 60 69 posts | I love this site...where we can respectfully discuss these types of things from many different perspectives. On this one, I have to respectfully agree to disagree with the Staff's opinion. I know you all will find this hard to believe, but sometimes we, as umpires miss calls. SMILE! Even the best umpires miss a call from time to time. IMO, giving the base runner the wrong number of outs is in the same category as missing a call. I don't know if its in the best interest of our game to ask the umpire to try to make things right "after the fact" or judge "what would have been the most likely outcome" of a given situation. I just think we open ourselves up for too many other potential problems. As an umpire, I wouldn't undo what has already happened on the field if I can help it. I'll just have to own my mistake, eat it, take the heat and move on. |
| Aug. 28, 2015 SSUSA Staff 3489 posts | Screamer ... We don't disagree at all ... The immediately previous answer was based upon having the luxury of 20-20 hindsight ... Which allows us to change what we may have done differently if it weren't for the fact we were in the trenches at the moment and made the call! ... We're OK with the way it went down, because we all make mistakes we should own ... Just ask MLB umpire Jim Joyce about the call at first base in Armando Galarraga's "lost" perfect game ... Both of those guys acted with pure class in the deal, but it still goes down officially as a 1-hitter ... |
| Aug. 28, 2015 swing for the fences Men's 50 1224 posts | Hey Screamer and Staff.. I think that Most players want the calls to be correct no matter if it helps or hurts their teams. If an umpire comes and overrules the other umpire on a play, I call that good umpiring as long as they get made the correct call... If the umpire gives someone the wrong info.. I believe it's up to the umpire to determine if it warrants a do over or a no play..IMO The bottom line is to do everything possible to get the calls correct. |
| Aug. 29, 2015 OZ40 549 posts | Most tournaments have an official score keeper, the umpire SHOULD have verified with his diamonds score keeper as to how many outs there were. If this were done the situation never happens. Once the game starts umpires have the right and responsibility to rule on any situation NOT COVERED under the official rules. As a side note managers should remember this: When no official score keeper is present, the HOME team keeps the official scorebook and it is up to the visiting team to check the official score after every three outs and make sure both teams are in agreement as to that score. You will save a lot of grief and confusion if you do this. |
| Aug. 29, 2015 The Screamer5 Men's 60 69 posts | Good points Swing and OZ. Like you said, I guess it all comes down to what the umpire determines warrants a do-over or no play. I just don't like changing what has already occurred unless it is absolutely necessary. Fyi Swing, a good umpire should never come in and simply overrule his partner's call or ruling on a play. He or she should come in and give the calling umpire information or what was seen for their perspective. The good umpiring comes in when the calling umpire is willing to openly listen to the partner and then change the call if necessary. It's most always up to the calling umpire to change his or her call. |
| Aug. 30, 2015 stick8 1991 posts | Swing, of course players want calls to be correct, umpires do as well. But when you say "if an umpire comes and overrules the other umpire on a play, I call that good umpiring...", I hope you don't mean an umpire running out and overruling his partner on the spot. Any umpire that does that does NOT belong umpiring. I will tell you if I ever had a partner that did that to me I would finish the game and afterwards privately tell the tourney director, the UIC or whoever assigned the games that I never want to be partnered with that person again. Then I would privately tell that umpire in so many words to NEVER do that again. The proper way to see if a call might be changed is for a player or manager to ask the umpire who made the call to ask his partner for help. Now that umpire doesn't have to ask his partner but it's a good idea to do so--this is where getting it right comes in. And they have to ask something specific--such as did he pull his foot, was he juggling the ball, did he drop the ball, was he on the base, etc etc. Then they can get together, discuss the play and try and come up with the proper call. |
| Aug. 30, 2015 swing for the fences Men's 50 1224 posts | let's put it this way... if guys ask if the umpire can ask the other umpire for his opinion and they get it right either by overruling or agreeing I call that good umpiring.. I just want the call to be correct.. period.. if they get the call right it's great umpiring, Period! |
| Aug. 30, 2015 swing for the fences Men's 50 1224 posts | and one other thing.. it's not about the umpires and their feelings.. It's about getting the call correct! If you are to big to let your partner overrule you because he had a better look at it, you shouldn't be umpiring! |
| Aug. 30, 2015 stick8 1991 posts | Well said Swing. |
| Aug. 30, 2015 swing for the fences Men's 50 1224 posts | Thanks Stick8... good conversation! |
| Aug. 31, 2015 Webbie25 Men's 70 2414 posts | Stick-I loved your World Champion example, and in this crazy game I could see that happening at that moment. Being a senior with a short term memory the length of a nanosecond, I find myself asking how many outs many times a game. And there have been more than a few times the umpire has had it wrong. But I still consider sportsmanship highly, and I would not want to win a World Championship on a call like that. We are not professionals, players or umpires. Why not get it right? And, on the home run call-I'm rethinking that, and teams should know, via their own scorekeeper, how many home runs they have. If it happened now, I wouldn't do the 'do-over'. As an umpire, why not always ask your partner when a team asks you to check with him? It takes about 5 seconds to walk out, and have your partner say 'you're right', and that usually ends it right there. |
| Aug. 31, 2015 grayhitter59 Men's 60 345 posts | I think it should be called whatever is fair for one team or the other. If the fielding team would have had it happened to them how would they want the out come to be. |
| Aug. 31, 2015 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | Webbie25, I feel as an umpire that I am a professional. I do not get paid what the ones do in the big leagues, but I try to hustle, know my rules, be approachable, and get the call right. That is what I am being paid to do. I am not going to check with my partner on every call. Mine and I have our signals worked out for us to know when the other one really wants help without even getting near each other. You have to remember that there are some players that will challenge every call, and you cannot let them get away with that. We have worked together a long time, and we work very well together. As a scorekeeper, I have gotten 2 outs for my team in seniors. In young guy ball, I have gotten many more. I have had a lot in illegal substitutions. Of course I do it like poker. I never ask unless they get on base or make a play. Also knowing the rules has gotten us a few calls as well. I really believe that for many years that I was the best slow pitch scorekeeper in Indy. I have some pretty crazy stories about those days, but those are for another day. |
| Aug. 31, 2015 stick8 1991 posts | Webbie, as one who has umpired numerous USSSA qualifiers, nits, world tournaments and does Conference USSSA I have never once declined anyone who has asked me to ask my partner for help. Even if the call goes against the team wanting help they appreciate us getting together, talking about it, looking to get it right. |
| Aug. 31, 2015 wazoo Men's 65 97 posts | Thanks for the great input, their was more involved that I didn't mention, This was the 3 A championship game with the winner receiving the TOC bid. After excepting the call they scored 4 more runs that ending but we pulled out the win. Another problem arises,the tournament included four 65 3 A's & one 70 major undefeated team. We all 3 agreed who ever won the game would forfeit the final game with the major team since both teams would win their age group and bid to the TOC. We were told by the director that the game had to be played or forfeit the 3 A championship. We discussed why risk injury on a game that doesn't count in the standings. We play the game and was beat by several runs due to awsome hitting & they enjoyed having the extra man in the field. As the awards were being handed out the 70 Major received SSUSA Polo shirts & we received SSUSA hats for winning the 3 A championship. Unbelieveable Tom Wasmer SLO SOX 3 A |
| Sept. 1, 2015 Webbie25 Men's 70 2414 posts | Nancy, I did not mean to offend you. By working out the signals you do exactly what I was meaning, you communicate and agree with each other and the call instead of just walking away as some umpires do. Some umpire teams work together well and some don't. Yes, some guys protest every call and you have to walk away.I played with one coach that would work the umpires every game mercilessly, even league games. He probably cost us at least one inning of playing EVERY game. I think he could not even stop himself from doing it. He even boasted about playing one player defensively every inning and that man never batted-in a national championship game. But, in general, most people don't do that. You speak of being professional. There are different levels that can be professional, and I was referring to those that only officiate and make their living at it like in professional baseball, football or the like. Professional at our level means doing a competent job, the best you can, and in the best manner you can do it. Many of our umpires are very professional in that sense. But we cannot expect the same level of calls that you might expect at the major league level, just as we cannot play the game at the major league level. And that's why SSUSA often talks about the 'spirit' of the game, and doing things you might not see in the majors. When a mistake is made like telling a runner there is 2 outs when there is only one, I believe every player, if he was the runner in that situation, would feel it was justified to put him back on first. It is also sportsmanship. |
| Sept. 1, 2015 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | Dear Webbie25, I was not offended. I just think every paid umpire should take this job seriously, even if only part time. At least I do not have calling a man out with the 1B several feet off the bag, especially recorded for history. My partner and I work really well together. Before we got together, I never felt that true sense of being a team. Of course it can be tough being a girl in this mix, but I have out lasted them all. My partner has 49 years experience vs my 21. For many years we did big Utrip tournaments at Midwest. He was my rabbit every game because he did not want their plate. His name is Steve Dickey, and he is my friend and hero. |
| Sept. 2, 2015 hitman Men's 70 339 posts | While other associations would have rewarded both Teams with first place awards especially since the game was played under championship rules and both teams were awarded 1st place for TOC, I don't understand why one 1st place team gets different awards than another 1st place. I guess SSUSA was saving a couple of dollars on awards that are mostly supported by their sponsors. How can you justify one team in 70 Major eligible for rings and not the 65AAA team that was champion but received second place awards, very poor for a TOC qualifier. |
| Sept. 2, 2015 Antique Road Show Men's 65 9 posts | Here's one for the armchair umpires: NSA Mens D....bases loaded 1 out....one hopper to 3rd..instead of going home or touchin 3rd, he fires to 1st....First basemen drops the ball runner safe...The runners that were on 1st & 2nd advance...but the runner on 3rd take 3 or 4 steps toward home and stops as the firstbasemen picks up the ball and runs across the field to tag him for the 2nd out...I'm at the point of the tag focused on the runners standing on 2nd and 3rd..nobodys movin I call time..this is where it gets real crazy....The batter that was safe at first assumed he was out or didn't hear me holla safe and starts off the field...I turn to see him heading for the 3rd base dugout and know I cant call him out till he leaves the playing field....shortstop grabs the ball and runs to tag him out about the pitchers rubber. I toldem I had time and put him back on first...2 outs play ball...teams go nuts...was I right or wrong? |
| Sept. 3, 2015 B.J. 1106 posts | sounds like you were doing 1 man....a lot to watch but yes if all runners had stopped after the tag of runner off of 3rd and you called time what ever happens after that does not count...2 outs bases loaded |
| Sept. 4, 2015 stick8 1991 posts | Antique when you called time that's it, the play is dead. Just from what you describe it doesn't sound like you did anything wrong. Hard to imagine what the batter-runner and the first base coach were thinking if the first baseman dropped the ball and you called him safe. Crazy things happen sometimes |
