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Online now: 2 members: TABLE SETTER 11, Tntcnn25; 76 anonymousDiscussion: missing first base
| Posted | Discussion |
| April 7, 2016 LMR 16 posts | missing first base Ball hit to infielder. Runner obviously beats throw by passing base but misses first base. Does ump call out? Or is this an appeal play? |
| April 8, 2016 Webbie25 Men's 70 2413 posts | As long as the first baseman catches the ball touching first base, the ump calls him out-not an appeal. The man officially never reached first. |
| April 8, 2016 B.J. 1105 posts | if the batter/runner beats the throw and misses the base he should be called safe...all runners are assumed to have touched the base they are going to...this now is an appeal play and must be made before the runner returns to the bag |
| April 8, 2016 lb16 Men's 60 196 posts | B.J. is correct if runner beats throw to first defensive team must appeal. It is the same as a runner missing any other bag running bases out must be made on appeal. |
| April 8, 2016 SSUSA Staff 3483 posts | We concur with B.J. and lb16 ... A runner who, in the course of running the bases, goes by a base has either "touched" or "passed" the base; in either case he has "acquired" the base. If he has touched the base, he is not vulnerable to a subsequent appeal that he has missed that base. If he has passed the base, he has failed to touch it, but is considered to have touched it until there is an appeal against his failure to touch. The defense has a responsibility to recognize a failure to touch a base. |
| April 8, 2016 Dbax Men's 65 2100 posts | How is an appeal made before the runner returns to the base? |
| April 8, 2016 BruceinGa Men's 70 3233 posts | Three or four years ago it was the same for a runner touching the white base instead of the orange (ASA), you had to appeal to the umpire before the runner returned to the base. I believe now it is called immediately by the umpire (some still view it as an appeal play though). I have been told by one umpire that he would never call someone out for touching the wrong base. Note, this applies only to the situation where the wrong base is touched, not missing first base. Maybe Staff will correct me if I'm wrong. |
| April 8, 2016 SSUSA Staff 3483 posts | Dbax ... If the batter-runner has "passed" the base before the ball gets there, he is initially "safe" and the defense is required to recognize the failure to touch first. There are no inadvertent appeals. An appeal must be obvious - unmistakably indicated by voice, or manner, or both. The defender stepping (maybe for the second time) on the base and saying "Hey ump, he missed first" would qualify as a valid Live Ball Appeal. Bruce .. You are correct, although the umpire stating that it's an appeal play on the white/orange bag call is not. |
| April 8, 2016 Dbax Men's 65 2100 posts | Staff, thank you. I was referring to the post by B. J. |
| April 8, 2016 k man Men's 65 326 posts | Staff, you say that the runner is initially safe as he passes 1st base. My question is what the umpire does Does he make a safe call extending his arms or calling out 'safe' or both OR does he make no call at all similar to when a base runner may miss 2nd or 3rd as they continue around the bases, waiting for the team in the field to appeal. |
| April 8, 2016 SSUSA Staff 3483 posts | Most professional umpires are likely to rule the runner safe at first and wait for a potential appeal, rather than doing "nothing". It remains the obligation of the defense to note the missed base and appeal accordingly. The umpire's deviation from his normal "safe" mechanics, in effect alerting the defense that something is amiss, is inappropriate. Your tweaked facts for 2nd or 3rd is not an analogous situation. |
| April 8, 2016 PoollShark Men's 50 90 posts | I don't get it. If the runner beats the throw to first but passes over the bag and the ump sees him miss the bag he is still supposed to call him safe and wait for an appeal? That makes zero sense. |
| April 8, 2016 SSUSA Staff 3483 posts | PoolShark ... Please carefully re-read our first post in this thread ... The subtle distinction between "touched" and "passed" the bag is very important ... In either circumstance, the runner is deemed to have "acquired" the base and he's initially ruled "safe" ... Then it's only a question of whether the defense figures out if an appeal for the "passed" base is appropriate, which can result in a call reversal and an out ... |
| April 8, 2016 B.J. 1105 posts | poolshark....its the same as a runner going 1st to 3rd and missing 2nd...if the ball came into the 2b from the OF and the 2B just happens to step on the bag....would you call the runner out....NO its an appeal...all runners are assumed to have touched the base they are advancing to |
| April 8, 2016 stick8 1991 posts | If I'm umpiring and the stated scenario takes place I verbally call him safe. If the first baseman does a live ball appeal before the batter runner gets back to first then i call him out. |
| April 8, 2016 PoollShark Men's 50 90 posts | I meant to convey that I know that's how it's called and I just disagree with it. I think on a play at 1st where the fielder throws to the bag and the runner misses the bag and the ump sees it then he should call him out. That IS why he's there, right? Balls, strikes, fair, foul, out, safe, etc. That's all I'm saying, not trying to argue. |
| April 8, 2016 SSUSA Staff 3483 posts | But there's just that pesky little 100+ year old rule that declares the runner has "acquired" the bag as soon as he "touches" OR "passes" it! ... The appeal process is required to allow the defense an opportunity to get him out anyway after beating the throw, but not closing the deal by touching the base ... Perfectly logical (and correct) from this viewpoint ... |
| April 9, 2016 lb16 Men's 60 196 posts | PoollShark - I understand your concern, look at it this way runner going from 1st to 3rd on base hit misses 2nd, ump sees runner miss 2nd. Does he automatically call runner out? No!! It is an appeal play, it is the same scenario as runner going to 1st. |
| April 9, 2016 DCPete 409 posts | Or a runner leaving a base early on a sacrifice fly . . . |
| April 10, 2016 Webbie25 Men's 70 2413 posts | So you are saying, as a runner if I miss the bag going by, but beat the throw, I am safe, and remain safe if I get back to first before the appeal, even if the first baseman has the ball on the bag before I touch it? Or am I out at that point? I have seen runners called out in that scenario before when they missed the bag. |
| April 10, 2016 B.J. 1105 posts | webbie...YES....there has to be a VERBAL appeal while the fielder is on the bag or he tags the runner while making an appeal... BEFORE the runner returns to the bag |
| April 10, 2016 BruceinGa Men's 70 3233 posts | Having played first base most of my softball life I can say that almost never can the first baseman tell if the runner has stepped over the bag, especially with the double bag. He must rely on the catcher or someone else to tell him or appeal to the umpire that the runner has missed the bag. Catchers and other teammates must be educated on this rule. |
| April 10, 2016 SSUSA Staff 3483 posts | B.J. - Here's our post to you on 10/29/2013 that discusses the Live Ball Appeal ... The LBA "may" be verbal, but is not required ... The umpire mechanic as used by stick8 above is the proper way to execute the call ... __________ "...A runner shall be called out, after a successful live ball appeal, if he: • failed to tag up on a batted ball caught in-flight, • failed to touch a base the last time he passed it, or • failed to touch all previous bases in order To properly execute a live ball appeal, a fielder must, with a live ball, tag the runner or base in question and communicate to the umpire what the infraction was and which runner committed the infraction. Such communication may be non-verbal, implicit, or assumed—so long as the intent of the fielder is clear to the umpire ..." |
| April 10, 2016 BruceinGa Men's 70 3233 posts | So in a LBA situation the defense must touch the runner or base where a DBA the defense need only to verbally appeal? |
| April 10, 2016 B.J. 1105 posts | STAFF on my last post I said do a VERBAL appeal while being on the bag OR tag the runner before he returns to the bag .... you quoted stick8 mechanic...If the first baseman does a live ball appeal before the batter runner gets back to first then i call him out.... how would the fieder do that in a NON-VERBAL way...where is it in the rule book or SENIOR SOFTBALL mechanics that an appeal may be non-verbal, implicit, or assumed...so if in your description if a fielder knows the runner misses the bag all he has to do is touch the bag and ASSUME the umpire knows what he is doing? please give some examples... and rule number please...thx |
| April 11, 2016 The Screamer5 Men's 60 69 posts | I don't believe it matters when or if the batter-runner has made it back to first base safely. Like you are saying, the runner is assumed to have touched first base on the play. If he beats the throw but missed the bag, the umpire is required to give the "safe" signal as if he touched the base. Him coming back to base means nothing. He can be back on the bag ready to go, but if the defense appeals that he missed the bag on the original play, (before the next live pitch), the umpire should then rule the batter-runner out. |
| April 11, 2016 B.J. 1105 posts | screamer5....NO...once the runner returns to the bag safely an appeal cannot be made... HOPEFULLY STAFF will cite the rule number and umpire mechanic and give examples for my above post?? |
| April 11, 2016 The Screamer5 Men's 60 69 posts | BJ...The appeal by the defense is simply asking the umpire if the batter runner missed the bag on the original play where he beat the throw to first. Maybe I'm confused but, the batter-runner coming back to touch the bag should mean nothing. The appeal window doesn't end for the defense when he comes back and touches the base. They have until the next live pitch. The defense is appealing that he missed the bag the first time through. I believe they can do that up until the next live pitch. |
| April 12, 2016 B.J. 1105 posts | screamer...NO...the window closes as soon as the runner returns safely to the bag...and yes I understand the appeal is simply asking...my question to staff was... how would the fielder do that in a NON-VERBAL way...and where is it in the rule book or SENIOR SOFTBALL mechanics that an appeal may be non-verbal, implicit, or assumed.. |
| April 12, 2016 stick8 1991 posts | BJ the answer to your question would be sign language :) |
