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Online now: 3 members: Lito, Randy17, TABLE SETTER 11; 271 anonymousDiscussion: Confusion on coach's interference.
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| May 13, 2016 Dodger Don Men's 75 3 posts | Confusion on coach's interference. In a game at the Southwest Championships in Las Vegas the following play occurred. There were runners on first and second, one out and the batter had two strikes. He popped up the next pitch down the first base line towards the coaches box, a relatively easy catch for the first baseman, at the same time the runner on second advanced towards third base (he seemingly thought there were two outs), the coach (in the first base coaching box) moved forward out of the box and caught the ball in foul territory. Since it was a third strike out, it appeared as if this was not a problem since the batter was out regardless if the ball was caught or not. However, the coach's interference kept the team in the field from completing a possible double play on the runner advancing to third. The Umpire (and subsequent appeal) ruled that the ball was dead when it touched the coach and/or when the batter hit it foul. In fact, the ball is not dead until it passes first base on the ground foul, is touched while in foul territory by a defensive player. The ball is not dead if caught on the fly in foul territory by a defensive player. Had there only been less than two strikes on the batter coach's interference would or should have been the call. There needs to be a definite ruling on this situation. |
| May 13, 2016 B.J. 1105 posts | the play as you describe it....and if the fielder made an attempt to catch it with 2 strikes on the batter then the umpire should have called interference on the coach and then called the runner out who had advanced to third since it sounds like you could have appealed he didn't tag up...also it would be the same call regardless of how many strikes were on the batter....If the fielder made no attempt to catch the ball and the coach caught it then I would have no call except batter is out on foul ball 3rd strike |
| May 13, 2016 k man Men's 65 326 posts | Agree with BJ . Only possibility is that it could be a judgment call by the umpire as to how far off the runner was going to 3rd or could he have easily gotten back by the time it would have been caught and thrown to 2nd base. As in 1/2 way to 3rd as compared to a few steps from bag. |
| May 13, 2016 OZ40 549 posts | Runner may not advance on a third strike foul period. Even if the foul is airborne and caught it is a strikeout NOT a pop out, therefore dead ball and runners may not advance. I see no difference between what happened in your case and if that third strike foul were on the ground and the coach went over and picked that ball up and tossed it back to the pitcher. It is a strikeout plain and simple and no runners can legally advance on a strikeout. The runner on second could have ran all the way to third and walked back to second because in this scenario there is no legal play to be made on him. |
| May 13, 2016 k man Men's 65 326 posts | OZ40 - SSUSA rule 9.4 ball 3rd strike foul caught in air batter is out and ball is live, runners may advance. |
| May 13, 2016 The Screamer5 Men's 60 69 posts | I believe the ruling umpire made the correct call in that interference should've been called on the coach if the 1st baseman was making a play on the ball regardless of the number of strikes on the batter...but the play is ruled dead at that point and the umpire can't make the leap to call the runner out based on what may have happened next. Once the play is ruled dead, it makes no difference where the runners are at. They should be returned to first and second base. |
| May 13, 2016 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | so oz40...a ball hit down the line that is caught by an outfielder in foul territory the runners can't advance....regardless of the count.....even on last strike......nope..... |
| May 13, 2016 k man Men's 65 326 posts | btw, in our local weekday league, foul ball on last strike is a dead ball out. |
| May 14, 2016 B.J. 1105 posts | Screamer5....yes this is a dead ball situation but the umpire does get to make s judgement decision after the play...it happens all the time when interference is called on a runner going into 2nd base and bumping into the fielder to break up a double play |
| May 15, 2016 OZ40 549 posts | I read the rule and I just don't understand the reasoning behind it. My own opinion is that if it's a strikeout then treat it as such, dead ball period. I see no reason to have two types of strikeouts, one in which the ball is live and one in which the ball is dead. A pitcher can make a good pitch that strikes out a batter and it can cost him bases or runs or even a big tournament??? |
| May 15, 2016 B.J. 1105 posts | OZ40....better yet educate your fielders not to catch a foul ball 3rd strike...then runners cannot advance |
| May 15, 2016 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | B.J. yep....now i do know one assoc that does it this way...and its young guys USSSA.......they don't want fielders just letting balls drop and then have the fielders go and retrieve the ball....from what i understand its for time wasting/saving...we have always yelled out to our outfielders to let it drop on 3rd strikes so as not to allow a runner to tag and advance.... oz there would be only a strike out if it hits the ground IMO.....a caught ball foul is just that..a caught ball ..runners advance after tagging if they want.... |
| May 15, 2016 OZ40 549 posts | It's easy not to catch a foul third strike IF it's clearly foul, what about a close to the line foul fly? A fielder or team for that matter gets penalized for running down a foul ball 3rd strike and a game or tournament could be lost by allowing the offensive team to advance on a strikeout. Again, I don't understand the rationale of penalizing a team because they didn't get the "right kind" of strikeout. Can anyone explain why SSUSA has two different types of strikeouts? |
| May 17, 2016 mitch1414 12 posts | This is a standard baseball/softball rule with one addition. We have to hit it fair with 2 strikes. It is only considered a strikeout if the ball is hit foul......which means it is not caught in the air. A ball has to land foul in order to be foul. A caught ball anywhere goes into the score book as a fly out, so it is not a strikeout. The team that catches a ball in foul territory, with 2 strikes on the hitter, penalizes themselves for doing so. In this instance, the umpire could make a ruling that the interference caused the defensive team a double play and call both out. Why should the defense be penalized for interference by the base coach? Unless there are additional rules I am not aware of, this is how it should be scored. |
| May 17, 2016 OZ40 549 posts | I guess I sort of hi-jacked this thread. When a batter comes to the plate in any type of ball game the scorekeeper will say "he fouled out last time up. The key descriptive word is "foul"- foul on third strike is a strikeout, not a fly out. Also this is not a standard rule as you say. I know of at least one other organization that calls a strikeout a strikeout meaning dead ball no advancing by the runners and that organization is USSSA. |
| May 17, 2016 Dodger Don Men's 75 3 posts | Apparently I didn't make this clear. It's not what anybody thinks the 3rd strike rule should be or whether or not to catch a third strike, or how somebody else does it, it is to make clear the SSUSA rule. SSUSA ruled the ball was dead and no further play could be made and that the umpire could not call interference. I believe this interpretation is wrong. The coach was able to keep a double play from happening. Further as far as catching a foul third strike, what if the ball is close to the foul line, are you going to let it drop? I don't think so, especially if it were in the outfield. |
| May 17, 2016 OZ40 549 posts | Dodger, again I apologize if I hi-jacked the thread here. I agree with you that an outfielder should catch all the fly balls possible. That is why I questioned why SSUSA has two different types of strikeouts-one where the ball is dead and one that you can advance on. If a third foul is truly a strikeout then it should be scored and treated as such-dead ball. Now if your pitcher makes a great pitch and fools a batter into hitting a 3rd strike foul and the outfielder makes a great play and catches it, why would you award the guy that struck out by letting runners advance on that strikeout and maybe cost a team a game or even a tournament? |
| May 17, 2016 Dodger Don Men's 75 3 posts | I think by allowing a third strike foul to be caught keeps the game closer to the regular baseball/softball rules. Remember, it is not strike three UNTIL it is actually a foul ball. I have seen a major league outfielder let a fly drop in foul territory if the runner on third would score following the catch and that run would tie or put the other team in the lead. Again my problem with the ruling (the ball is dead and the umpire cannot make a judgment call) is that it allowed the team at bat to avoid a potential double play. This IS senior ball and runners often have senior moments! |
| May 18, 2016 OZ40 549 posts | On a close fly near a foul line as it stands now the umpire still makes a judgement call, -fair or foul. Again, the fielder needs to catch all the balls he can get to, if you have a really fast outfielder it's almost a penalty because consider the following: A really fast outfielder gets to a fly near the line, he has to catch it because if it lands fair it rolls to the fence and costs his team the win. He catches the ball, it turns out foul 3rd strike, batter out, runner tags and his teams loses anyway. SAME scenario, slower fielder that get to the ball in the air, ball falls foul, 3rd strike, batter out, no tag-up his team wins....something about that isn't right. Make any strikeout the same as any other strikeout. |
| May 18, 2016 B.J. 1105 posts | OZ... you keep calling a caught foul ball with 2 strikes on the batter a strike out...I think it is scored a sac. fly if a runner tags and scores from 3rd and a fly out if no runners score...I think it is only scored a strike out if it is a foul ground ball or the fielder does not make a catch on a foul fly ball... STAFF could you please give an answer on how this should be scored?? |
| May 18, 2016 mitch1414 12 posts | Oz it is a standard rule that has been changed by several different softball organizations. I think that you are getting hung up on the lingo. Just because we use words like "fouled out" doesn't mean it is scored that way in the book. If a catcher catches a pop up in foul or fair territory it is listed as an F2 in the book. It doesn't say "fouled out". Now since we have a rule that with 2 strikes, the ball has to be fair, the easiest way to score an actual foul ball that hits foul territory, is as a strikeout, because we don't use the term foul out when score keeping. That is why any ball caught in the air, fair or foul, with 2 strikes or less, will always be a fly out and never a foul out. |
| May 18, 2016 OZ40 549 posts | Mitch, I respectfully disagree. If a third strike foul is in the official rules as a strikeout then the correct mark in the scorebook should be a "K". If a batter hits a 3rd strike foul on the ground it's not recorded as a ground out, it's a strikeout dead ball, why should a 3rd strike foul fly be recorded as a fly out? I mean it's the same territory that the foul grounder was over, right? A strike out should be a strikeout. |
| May 18, 2016 16wood Men's 65 77 posts | It can't be a '3rd strike foul out' until it hits the ground past the base or some other object (like a dugout fence or)... until then it's fly ball. If it's caught, it's ruled an F8, F10 or whatever. We've been playing with this rule for a really long time. In fact, we make a point of telling corner fielders to let it drop if there is a tag up possibility. If the fielder isn't certain that it's fair or foul, and no one tells him otherwise, he's supposed to catch it. Conversely, if it's a roller we tell the fielder to touch it in foul territory if he's in front of the base. That makes it an official K... if there were 2 strikes. This, too , has long been part of our general way of doing things. But the play that was described in the first post (by Dodger Don) has never happened in a game that I've witnessed... I've wondered how it would be called. BW |
