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Discussion: SSUSA Staff: Shaved Bats

Posted Discussion
May 31, 2016
Soup-e10
12 posts
SSUSA Staff: Shaved Bats
This is for the SSUSA staff, do you have or will you have anyway to test for altered senior softball bats at any of the SSUSA tournaments in 2016-2017?
This is a growing problem and from what I see there is nothing in place as a deterrent

Thanks
Dave V
Senior Softball Bat Reviews
June 9, 2016
fennellwg
Men's 60
97 posts
....Nuthin,huh?
Other softball orgs obviously use compression testers to identify bats that no longer meet their performance specs.
The reason a bat is no longer legal ( whether shaved or well broken in) should be secondary to the process.
I imagine that a bat considered too hot to have happened thru normal use could be set aside for more elaborate inspections.

In the meantime, SSUSA appears to have accepted a policy of "wait and see"
As long as old guys are too feable or too lucky to avoid killing anyone with a shaved bat, the current cash flow should justify the risks.

we all still play, knowing that we are likely facing shaved bats.
Other folks like ASA ,SSUSA or NCAA, have more stringent testing of bats for both the manufacturers certificate and player approval.
But still no uniform policy from various regulating bodies.
So I guess there will be a fair amount of blame to pass around when the s##t hits the fan.
It's not rocket science.
It's not even science.
It's politics and money.

IMO,
Bill


June 9, 2016
Sparky.1
Men's 65
272 posts

NORTH, EAST, SOUTH and WEST.......THE MONEY IS THE COMPASS THAT DIRECTS SENIOR SOFTBALL THE BEST!

"the Rattlesnake" (just for Dave) [grins]
June 9, 2016
hemi racer
Men's 65
237 posts
With todays senior bats being so hot right out of the wrapper, just how much performance does shaving add? Is it worth the trouble and effort?
June 9, 2016
Benji4
228 posts
I personally don't think shaved senior bats are that big a problem especially on the West Coast. Bat performance is too good and most older guys are to cheap to pay $80-$100 dollars to get their bat shaved.

Besides a shaved senior bat would probably only last about 100 swings and once again nobody is going to want to keep spending money on bats.

Now guys that don't swing senior bats make me a little suspicious..

Compression testers are not accurate and I'm sure SSUSA is not going to start cutting bats open that fail compression, because if they aren't altered they would have to replace them.

And how come people are always complaining about senior softball making money?

I'm sure none of you worked for free when you were working......
June 9, 2016
TAT22
61 posts
The bat manufactures need to step up and make the bats with either a composite rolled end cap or their best effort to make a tamper proof end cap. Right now their bats can be altered and shaved with removing the end cap, they need to do better to make our game safer.
June 9, 2016
tattooball
754 posts
It is a simple problem to fix, just takes someone that cares to do it.
June 9, 2016
fennellwg
Men's 60
97 posts
Benji,
It's not that I disagree totally. As nothing is ever just black and white.
Plenty of old guys with disposable cash to spend on any toy that suits them.
And any Google search will quickly find enough people making money shaving bats.
Not to mention an entire industry built around selling $200 bats to old guys.

My point is, there is little reason to dispute the facts.
Shaved bats exist. It's just a matter of perspective as to the significance of the problem

No doubt that compression tests are not completely accurate.
Otherwise the whole concept of shooting a ball out of a cannon to measure BPF or BBS would be moot.
But it still seems like a pretty good way to filter out "unique" performers.
And there are many ways the test could be refined to make it more reliable.

As stated, I think is more important to remove bats that are too hot than to find out if they have been illegally altered.
But if such a claim was justified I'm sure there are any ways to examine a bat before committing to destructive testing.
Certainly there are grownups at all of the bat companies that can remove an end cap for visual inspection w/o damaging the barrel ?
Again, IMO.
bill

June 9, 2016
VOODOOSPORTS
Men's 40
34 posts
I agree with the ben geeee guy. Haven't noticed shaved bats in SSUSA. Think its not cost productive. $160.00 avg for a bat that lasts 500 cuts then spend whatever it is to make it last 100. No thanks.

IMHO why would bat companies make a change? ASA/USSSA bats have a warranty. So a stock bat gets sent back before year is up =2 bats for $250.00. A shaved bat doesn't get sent back= 1 bat for $250.00.

I don't think shaved bats are an issue in senior softball, but thats me.


June 9, 2016
Dancer
114 posts
Benji4 "Now guys that don't swing senior bats make me a little suspicious" Not always what you think. I use a non-senior bat all the time (Miken DC-41), but it is for strategy. I use a non-senior bat to hit before the outfield and then when they move up later in the game, I use a senior bat to pound it over their head. But sometimes, if I am in a batting slump, I have an old Miken MV1 I will break out. I use it for superstitious and psychological reasons to try to get a hit. That bat I have used for seven years and it was my favorite until I got into senior softball. I did break the MV1 out another time when I was red hot at the plate. I wanted to see if I could get a hit with every bat in my bag which I have 5 of them in my bag (bat junkie). It was fun and it goes to show, "it is not the bat, but the batter".
June 9, 2016
garyheifner
603 posts
As I have noted in the past:

When u are in the championship bracket play and the opponents have over a dozen senior bats lined up in the dug out and they are hitting bombs and almost all are using the SAME exact bat:

U might think something is not right!
June 9, 2016
Dancer
114 posts
Gary, I do agree with you there. I have seen teams use just one bat out of the dugout before. I do get very suspicious then. Kind of funny, in regular senior league, I see multiple bats and maybe some of the players have the same brand. But the big difference is everybody usually use their own bat and not sharing it.
June 9, 2016
tc4whlr
31 posts
IN asa bats I believe the monsta bat company has come with a tamper proof bat
June 9, 2016
pizzaboy
56 posts
If you guys think shaved bats aren't being used in every senior tournament in this country,I've got some ocean front prorerty for you here in Pa!It doesn't take a rocket scientist to shave a bat,just the right lathe and a friendly machinist!Shaving bats adds 25-30" if done right to the average hitters swing.Believe me they are everywhere and because seniors still have big egos and big wallets!
Pill&Pill Softball
June 9, 2016
Allan55
98 posts
Benji4,

The amount of shaved bats has increased dramatically over the last five years. The only way to find out is to have SSUSA officials choose a game and walk in each dugout before that game and check every bat in every bag with a compression checker. I guarantee you will see a difference in the game in no time.

I heard SSUSA is checking into altered bats and looking at devices that would be accurate. I can hardly wait.
June 10, 2016
DOLFAN
87 posts
BS..I know for sure, Dudes are shaving bats......I just wrote a 1000 word rant, but after reading it I decided not to post it becuase it doesn't matter..Bitches are gonna "CHEAT". I say challenge every bat every game, every tourney.......damn, I'm pissed because punks are "CHEATING", efffffing p**y's cant hit bombs without help...you cats who read this post and know u shave ur bats should feel "sick"...Man Up or be punks......Yeah, You know who you are!!! I'm sorry, but I pride myself on my abilty and I don't need no BS Bat shaving to help me.....
June 10, 2016
miken44
89 posts
ongoing problem there are egos so if i hit the ball 325 ft some one else has to go 330 or better every bat should be checked for compression there are some guys in our league that we all suspect if you are caught using one you should face a 5 year ban but if you hit someone with a shaved bat or altered bat a life time ban send the bat to the appropriate people pull the end cap you will know then for sure
June 10, 2016
titanhd
Men's 50
570 posts
I have never swung a Senior Bat in tourney play and I have never used a shaved bat.I get asked all the time why I don't use a Senior bat.Well I'm not the guy that needs to hit the ball five miles and with the balls we use a good well broken in USSSA bat works for me. And if I break it I can return it for replacement.I have no interest in a Senior Rocket launcher!

btw I hit .750+ every tourney with a homerun every now and again too.
June 10, 2016
southernson
280 posts
DOLFAN and Others,
There are far more shaved bats in Senior Softball than anyone really wants to know. I agree with you. No different than the young guns. Pitched for a lot of years, and you know that sound....or lack of it for those who know what I mean. It extends to all levels of play. It's just a fact of life, another obstacle to overcome.

There's too much money at stake for it to ever change.
June 10, 2016
DonB
48 posts
I read this on another site:

My Big Cats have 700- 900 swings and are too soft for me. I used 2 DC41's in senior ball for a year and they were fantastic at 220-225 compression. My best Nightmares have always been at 190-210. Once a bat gets under 190 I start to lose distance and get lots of knuckle balls. The bats feel fantastic when they test low or like a rolled up newspaper when they are really low. But when you compare them side by side with a higher testing bat the difference is obvious. Again, this is for my swing. Give a 150 compression bat to a singles hitter or someone with a slow swing and they will be in heaven. For me 190-200 is as low as I like. A really stiff handle [energy to barrel] and a slightly stiff barrel means maximum performance.


If this is true ,I'm thinking if you shave a senior bat,it'll be crap soon for most people.Then again there're people out there who want to spend their kids inheritance.

Don
June 10, 2016
Benji4
228 posts
Okay to clarify I didn't say there weren't any shaved bats in senior softball. And you guys that swing non senior bats make good points.

And the obvious signs like everyone swinging the same bat or the sound of the bat or a guy with a crappy swing who accidentally hits it 320 feet is suspicious.

But the Dudley's and new miken's sound like cannons right out of the wrapper so sound sometimes is deceiving.

And I have compression tested my senior bats that test higher than my USSSA bats so that's why I don't think compression testing is the answer. You can't always tell from the cap if the bat's been altered. There are other ways to remove the cap that don't leave a mark. If a guys bat fails compression because it's old and not altered, people will still accuse him of a shaved bat and that's wrong.

So my point is it's going to be hard for SSUSA to enforce this, and bat manufacturers aren't changing anytime soon.

I think it would take one team to call a guy out, put up $300 dollars, have the bat cut open and inspected and if it's shaved lifetime suspension. That would probably make guys think twice. If it's not shaved, give him the $300 dollars and you will just have to eat a little crow.....
June 10, 2016
tattooball
754 posts
I have been compression testing senior bats for 4 years and there is a simple inexpensive way to correct the problem. All it takes is someone that will make rules to do so and allow people to enforce them.
June 10, 2016
Phoenix26
21 posts
If the pass/fail for USSSA bats is 220, what would a senior pass/fail be..200?
Like Benji4 said, very tough to tell by sound on senior sticks. But, a crappy,
lackluster looking swing can raise eyebrows. Like a lot of you I was in Reno last weekend and saw a few of those. I know it's in altitude but still.

What percentage of bats are shaved? IDK for sure but more than a couple I'd guess.

I play league with a guy who provides "the service" and I asked him if senior
bats ever come through? "More than you think" he says.

IMO the only 100% way to make sure everything is stock is to have a
bat provided tourney format. Seriously doubt that would ever happen but
at least there would be no questions.
June 10, 2016
joel 1975
131 posts
better check tho's home run hitter's for steroid's ,no fence in the country can hold a ball off of an ultra two with a nice swing ,we use good ball's and good bat's and have limit's on hr's so what's the point. if you watch the kid's in hr derby's when they can swing anything made ,they never swing senior bat's
June 11, 2016
DCPete
380 posts
Probably a lot more shaved bats in senior ball now that SSUSA has switched to the crappy, underperforming Trump Stote ball. Same thing that "allegedly" happened in open age ball when they started switching to the crappy, underperforming 52/300 ball.
June 11, 2016
Gavin5
Men's 70
26 posts
Lots of opinions here on compression testing, but what tester are you using? The ASA and USSSA testers do not have a pass/fail PSI or index for senior bats. What tester measures BPF 1.21? Isn't that a manufacturer's declaration?
June 12, 2016
garyheifner
603 posts
Once again on my Soap Box!!!!

Your caught with a shaved/altered bat, LIFE TIME ban from senior softball. Simple-problem solved. This should not include the manger/team as he/they do not have control when a player drives out of the parking lot.

For those of you who do not understand what altering does:

I played in a pick up league in Joliet, Il. Guys show up, self ump and pick teams. I forgot my bat. I asked a guy if I could hit his Ultra 2 28 oz. 1st swing, I went about 320. I can, maybe, go about 275 max with my ultra and the wind blowing out, hard. I said, it was the hottest 28 I have ever hit. He said, it was a SPECIAL bat. Which translates to an altered bat. An altered bat alters the game for those who honor the rules and regs. of our great game.

Seriously guys, it is worth it to cheat??????????

June 13, 2016
neck10
680 posts
we went to lansing to bobby chap tourney fences were 315 down the lines 324 in center field . we hit one home run & had no home runs hit against us.I watched a lot of game's & didn't see many hr's. then we went over to davis park 275 down line's & 300 in center then there were a lot of hr's on sunday at (davis park)that park.
June 13, 2016
?
121 posts

So what's your point?

June 13, 2016
neck10
680 posts
point is another 15 feet make's a difference we had several ball hit to the fence that would have been out at 300 but were just long out's in lansing.
June 13, 2016
neck10
680 posts
when you see a team where everyone uses the same bat make's you wonder most senior guy's have there own bat.we have to use asa bat's(there is a bat tester at location) & there are still a few hr's but not as many as with senior bat's
June 14, 2016
balllover
7 posts
This is more of a problem of altered bats...whether you live on the East Coast or West Coast. What is the old cliche? It's only cheating if you get caught? It's a shame that some of us old guys feel we have to cheat in underhand softball...again... its only cheating if you get caught huh? I personally have seen when guys S##T themselves when their ball bag goes missing... not that their wallet, car keys, or cell phone are in the bag... BUT THEIR SHAVED BATS!!!!
June 14, 2016
nails
Men's 70
43 posts
Do non composite bats get shaved or rolled also?
June 15, 2016
AJC
Men's 60
155 posts
Shaved bats used by grown men over 50 ? I would have to agree with Benji4 on this. I find it hard to believe that there is an issue with this happening in senior softball, maybe I'm being naive but these bats are already so hot and not to mention they don't last as it is. To have a bat Shaved, how many swings could you get out of bat ? For what, to get an extra 10-20 feet. I would hope the penalty for using a " dirty bat " would be very stiff !I thought this was only an issue with the young guys.......
June 15, 2016
Jawood
Men's 50
926 posts
The young guys are getting older and juiced, shaved and altered bats are here and will be here to stay unless something is done about it.
June 15, 2016
Az Iz
65 posts

neck10 has the right idea.

If the fences are brought in far enough, then there will be no need to shave bats.

June 17, 2016
softball4b
Men's 65
1116 posts
Can't bring the fences in, most of the fields are city owned and are multi use per planing documents.
June 17, 2016
Snot Nose Kid
67 posts

Evidently you never saw the Celebrity Softball Game played at the park that hosts the MLB All Star game during All Star week.


June 18, 2016
softball4b
Men's 65
1116 posts
If you referring to my post, I doubt very seriously that any city is going to go the expense and potential liability of temporary fencing.
June 18, 2016
Hitemdeep
44 posts
For you guys that think there isn't a problem in senior ball you are sadly mistaken. I know for a fact that some of these bat shaving companies have admitted that the most bats they shave and sell shaved are senior bats. I've never seen a bat pulled. Seen pitchers get blown up and ump didn't even pick up the bat to even look at it. Guys are always gonna cheat no matter what level or how good a bat is made it can always be made better. Its really sad. The bats are already scary hot. As softball players we just have to deal with it and as pitchers protect ourselves the best we can. Its never gonna change the bat companies will lose to much money making an alter proof bat.
July 11, 2016
Wpfggold
Men's 50
11 posts
Provided Bats out of the wrapper at tournaments, 5 bats per field in diff oz's and end load & balanced.

Problem Solved.....
July 11, 2016
BruceinGa
Men's 70
3189 posts
Provided bats have been discussed many times here. In my opinion it won't happen, bat companies' profits would suffer.
About 12 years ago SPA provided Wicked Insanity bats at their hr derby at their nationals. It worked for me ;-)
July 11, 2016
nails
Men's 70
43 posts
i think alot of guys would love provided bats,,,,but like bruce says ,,it wont happen.
July 11, 2016
AJC
Men's 60
155 posts
Redwood City rec league tried providing bats about 10 years ago. It was summer league and they used different fields and at each field they supplied the same 3 bats, a 26 Oz ( don't recall which bat this was ) a 27 Oz Freak 98 and a 28 Oz Easton Synergy. You could use only these bats. This didn't last even to half the season due to all of the bats that were cracking. We ended up going back to using our own bats. I know this ended up costing the city thousands in replacement bats.
July 11, 2016
AJC
Men's 60
155 posts
Oops........ meant to say ' they used 3 different fields for league. "
July 11, 2016
southerinman
Men's 50
47 posts
Another version of the provided bat theme that I have heard discussed is for each team to supply 4-5 bats. Only use those for the game. If you want to swing an altered bat the other team also has an option to use it. Anyone hit and injured with an altered bat the blame/penalties fall on the original owner.
July 11, 2016
rbigs51
Men's 60
13 posts
wow! as a ten year senior player i sure didnt realize the shaving ie cheaters were that bad. although i have witnessed some balls hit and couldnt believe how far they went i just thought well they are senior bats.it just amazes me as potent as these bats are that people have to cheat.i think that any player using one should be banned forever,but thats my opinion. god forbid any player gets hurt or killed by one.after reading some of the comments im just like well i cant even put it into words
July 11, 2016
E6 in AZ
Men's 50
91 posts
I would like to see SSUSA start random compression tests. I play the infield and notice rockets coming off the bat first hand.
But what I really notice is players getting loose with one bat and not hitting with that bat. But.... with the same bat that three or four other missle hitters on the team are using. Same bat manufacturer and same model, so what makes this one bat different ?
(sorry, hung out at B.L.D. all weekend and had nothing else to do)
SSUSA....please start testing. I think your liability insurance and attorney would agree, I know some infielders will.
Laters.
July 12, 2016
DCPete
380 posts
E6 fyi compression testing Senior bats won't work because None of them will pass the 220 standard . . .
July 12, 2016
Hitemdeep
44 posts
It's very easy to remedy by bat companies. Just make a removable endcap that screws in and out. Something similar to the Dudley knob how it screws in and out. Then if the bat is questionable unscrew the cap and look inside. In the 40's in Hemet a team was openly talking about their shaved dudleys in the dugout.
July 12, 2016
joel 1975
131 posts
I had some ultr 2's tested in our league they were in the wrapper they all passed some by a lot's most of the used ones would not pass!!!!!!!!!!!!

July 12, 2016
southerinman
Men's 50
47 posts
Joel, since you state that the U2's tested were still in the wrapper I would assume they are senior stamped bats as well. I know there isn't supposed to be a difference between those and the old ASA stamped or no stamped ones, but I think there is. I have a couple of og ASA stamped bats that probably have a huge number of swings on them. I'd be interested in know how they did on a compression tester. I also have an 04 still in the wrapper we could test.
July 24, 2016
Semmy
7 posts
TD/organizations have the option to supply bats for the tourney and sell them afterwards. Or SSUSA could get the testers for the big tournaments and reject the bats that fail testing. No sticker=no use.
July 24, 2016
blue leader
11 posts
If these guy's start dumbimg down the balls being used at the tournaments, like another org. has, the bats won't matter, shaved or otherwise.
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