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Discussion: Why are there rules?

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Aug. 21, 2016
Hitemdeep
44 posts
Why are there rules?
Why are there rules that players must follow but a director is allowed to do whatever they want. When playing in a sanctioned event by SSUSA all should have to follow by the rules but it never happens and no one will do anything about it. You as a sanction are responsible to make sure this happens. It's basically a big FU to us as players that pay to play. There would be no sanction without us.
Aug. 21, 2016
DaveDowell
Men's 65
2862 posts
With such a multitude of detail information you have provided, it's hard to know where to begin. Maybe a tournament, a director name, even a general overview of the issue would be a starting point. Absent that, it's somewhat meaningless so far.
Aug. 21, 2016
Hitemdeep
44 posts
Played in a qualifier this weekend. There was a team allowed to play with guys under age players . They were also swinging senior bats. It's bad enough 40 year olds swing these bats but now we let 30 year olds in a qualifier and swing them. If you ask me someone is looking at playing with fire in the legal world if someone is injured. This was a SSUSA event and we had to produce cards as a team. The director knowingly let the team play. They ended up 3rd and actually were awarded a prize. Really? The problem is anyone who try's to stand up to this director he says he reserves the right to run it the way he chooses and will actually blackball the players from playing in his events. It's been going on a long time and it just isn't right. There we teams that wanted to enter to qualify for worlds and they were denied but this team was allowed to play fully knowing they weren't qualifying and had under age players but were approved to play. This was a sanctioned event and if we must abide by the rules so should directors.
Aug. 21, 2016
Benji4
228 posts
Dave rub the SSUSA crystal ball....C'mon

But if I had to guess mine would be:

Rick Seifman..........................
Aug. 21, 2016
Dbax
Men's 60
1864 posts
Lol! Nice guess.
Aug. 21, 2016
ffdonnie
Men's 60
131 posts
C'mon deep, if you are going to call someone out on here then grow some stones and name names. Tired of this chicken shit whining and crying. You don't even have your name on here so what are you worried about? If it's this same guy we've heard about before, then let us know.
Aug. 22, 2016
neck10
680 posts
the tournament director's in Lansing were fine as far as we were concerned. weather was a little shaky but everything else was fine.
Aug. 22, 2016
Hitemdeep
44 posts
Really this is how you guys respond to a matter that is supposed to be taken seriously. FF Donnie what does it matter who it it is. I'm just trying to know why directors can do as they please. Simple question. Dave asked what was the issue I explain it. Now I'm an anonymous keyboard brigade? What a joke'!
Aug. 22, 2016
softball4b
Men's 65
1119 posts
Whether I agree with the premise or not. If I want to be taken seriously, I usually look a person in the eye and talk to them. It means it has significance to me and I am willing to put my reputation on the line as being the author of the statement. But that is just me.

Mike Adair
Aug. 22, 2016
Benji4
228 posts
Very well put Mike but unfortunately there are very few of us left like that.

Hitemdeep. You may very well have a legitimate complaint but if you call a guy out at least say his name so he can defend himself and put your name to your complaint. Otherwise do you really think anyone on here is going to take you seriously? You're basically complaining, but afraid to sign your name or name the director. I don't think anyone expects SSUSA to address anything without that information.

So I'm thinking the "Anonymous Keyboard Courage Brigade title is appropriate. Therefore, change your posting title to: AKCB......

Benji
Aug. 23, 2016
E6 in AZ
Men's 50
91 posts
Let me make sure I got this straight, "Hitem" has an issue, posts it and then gets blown up with negativity by the next day. That is not cool, some folks want to try and change something they perceived as wrong, yet do not feel comfortable identifying themselves. That is why most communities have a crime fighting program called "Silent Witness" (or something similar) and we also have the "Whistleblowers Protection Act", to attempt to right a wrong without the personal risk.
Bottom-line, if "Hitem" does not say something .... then he is agreeing that the wrong act was "right".
Give the guy a break.
I am sure that SSUSA reviews these posts and hopefully they realize the potential liability they face if something occurs (or does not occur) in a SSUSA sanctioned event.
My 2 cents.
Aug. 23, 2016
Benji4
228 posts
Nobody blew him up with negativity. We simply said identify the director and identify yourself.

Silent witness is for criminal acts doesn't pertain here. Whistleblowers ultimately have to identify the person and they themselves are identified.

How do you expect to validate a complaint when the person complaining doesn't identify the director or himself?

If you are to scared to name people or sign your complaint it's simple:

DON"T COMPLAIN..............

And since you are now a lawyer I'm 100% positive there is zero liability for SSUSA based on an anonymous complaint on a message board.
Aug. 23, 2016
softball4b
Men's 65
1119 posts
Seriously, you think either of those programs apply. Is the individual desiring to remain silent in fear of retribution, loss of job, or personal injury? Even those programs have guidelines in place regarding the reporting of an incident. What those programs do not allow is allegations without specifics. If it Rick then call him out.

I do not have first hand knowledge of the events that occurred at the tournament in question.

For me personally, I would have handled it differently.

First, I would have lodged a formal written complaint with the director of the tournament.

Second, I would have lodged a formal written complaint with the authority responsible for sanctioning said tournament. I would have referenced the potential liability for failure to enforce rules that are in place for uniformity and safety.

If in those instances, if I did not receive a response I was comfortable with, I would have then:

Not play in a tournament with the same director, not play in a tournament sanctioned by that governing body or pursue a more legal approach.

Just for the record, I do not think any 30 or 40 year old should be swinging senior bats. I certainly do not think underage players should be playing on in an older age group. 30>40>50>60. There is a reason there is age banding. In premise I agree with Hitemdeep, in practice, presentation is everything.

Mike Adair
Aug. 23, 2016
Dbax
Men's 60
1864 posts
I did write a complaint to SSUSA earlier in the year after the Spring Training Classic. This director makes his own rules. No action was taken at that time, and apparently things have not changed. Rumors are there will be some changes in 2017. I'm referring to playing in his tournaments.
Aug. 23, 2016
16wood
Men's 65
77 posts
Each person who uses this message board to express himself/herself has the right to include personal information or not. You can click on anyone's handle on the left hand margin and see whether he or she chooses to do so.
The choice to do it or not was provided by none other than SSUSA.

When someone posts their thoughts they again have this choice. I choose to use my name because I believe it carries more weight. When I see someone's name I can more readily identify with them. But the absence of their name doesn't render their points invalid.
Others choose to not include their name, etc. That is one of the freedoms that SSUSA has given us.
If 'Hitem' (or anyone else) decides that he doesn't want his/her name on it, that is his/her business...
This issue has been debated numerous times over the years on this forum. The end result has always been that we cannot force others to see things the way that we see them.

There is little change made that comes from this board. It is merely a place for self expression. Had Hitem used his name (and the TDs) it still wouldn't be an impetus for change. DD has stated this many, many times. Let's not confuse this board with a letter to our congressman.

DBAX stated that he provided a written complaint previously. Did it make a difference? Only he'd know.
Bob Woodroof
Aug. 23, 2016
Hitemdeep
44 posts
I seriously simply wanted to state why must we follow rules and guidelines but a director doesn't have to. This has been a major problem In Arizona for many years! I just wanted SSUSA to offer a response to what was stated but obviously they don't wanna be involved. This forum is supposed to be for expressing problems and things that happen. I'm not a lesser mam because I choose not to reveal my name or the directors. It's not rocket science to figure things out. I'm just tired of all the BS we as players have to deal with and nobody stands up for us. The players are the ones who carry the association and support it if we can't voice or out frustrations then why even have a board. So we should just quit playing because were unhappy? That's time we lose as players that we can't get back. Life is to short. We seriously should consider having a players union. There is to much power given to people and it's taken advantage of. Over 750 views and nobody has even agreed with me that this situation was wrong. Just because I don't reveal my name means I wanna play ball and not be blackballed from playing or have it affect my team. . I love to play ball and have played for over 26 years. I just want it to be fair for all. I can't play 50's at my age or should I be allowed to and I don't feel people under 40 should be swinging senior bats in a 40's division qualifier. Theres a reason we must show birth certificates and id's and have a players card that we PAY for. There is no other option or believe me alot of us would take it. The only option is don't play. What does that prove nothing! Just wasted weeks,months, or years! . We love to play ball and wanna continue to play on a level playing field. But I guess I'm just a whiny complaining keyboard AKCB'!
Aug. 24, 2016
SSUSA Staff
2904 posts
A few hopefully relevant comments ...

This Message Board does not require "ID" from its members to contribute to the discussions. All users may judge the validity of commentary based on whatever criteria they desire, including "identifiable" vs. "anonymous". We simply don't care.
Posters seeking SSUSA involvement in any particular matter MUST contact the SSUSA offce by written correspondence, either by e-mail or snail-mail. That correspondence must be "identifiable" as to its author.
The next time SSUSA takes any action based on commentary from the Message Board will be an organizational "first" in our 29-year history. This includes "issues" and "suggestions" for National Rules Committee action.
Criticism of hitemdeep for his anonymous presence here is unfair.
Any expectation by hitemdeep that formal action will come from SSUSA via this message thread, absent the further written follow-up as mentioned above, is unreasonable.

Aug. 24, 2016
E6 in AZ
Men's 50
91 posts
Hitem,
I hear you and agree completely with you on this topic (check out my past posts).
I have recently kept quiet after my club recieved negative attention, which should have been directed completely at me and not them. I own my comments and stand behind them.
SSUSA,
Thank you for your response and direction.
Laters.
Aug. 24, 2016
Infinity11
2 posts
Gentleman, I normally don't post on these but in defense of the tournament and the director, I believe you have your facts wrong. We played in the tournament in Prescott this past weekend I know for a fact that Roster Check, the team that had the under age players, did not get any awards and they were playing as an exhibition team after the directors found out that they had some under age players. First of all they never, to my knowledge, ever contacted the director prior to the tournament to ask if they could play with under 40 players but just showed up to the tournament with them. To me that is lame because they took a spot from teams that were not able to get into the tournament because it had filled up. The directors can only do so much and when this was pointed out to them during the tournament it was taken care of by making them an exhibition team and they got no prizes. If teams know of people or other teams that are doing illegal acts, then they need to help police the program and point it out prior to playing the game and not wait until afterwards to vent on the message board. The senior program is strong and getting stronger in Arizona or people would not try to cheat to win or to play with illegal players. Instead of bashing the program, how about you try to make it better by coming up with constructive ideas to make it the best in the country.Players should be upset about the team that was trying to cheat not the people who run the tournament because the team got caught.
Aug. 24, 2016
Hitemdeep
44 posts
Infinity11.....rhata some funny stuff you wrote. It's complete BS. What a joke
Aug. 24, 2016
Hitemdeep
44 posts
That's....
Aug. 24, 2016
bogie
Men's 65
357 posts
Dave, you always address things with such wisdom...can i hire you to explain some of my logic to my wife??? It might be a challenge even for you ha..bogie
Aug. 24, 2016
Hitemdeep
44 posts
Just a fact for you infinity teams knew they were letting underage players play because people called SSUSA headquarters on Friday to try and stop it. Supposedly they were playing as an exhibition team. That's the big problem here it's a qualifier and shouldn't be allowed in any way shape or form allowed to play underage. So stop writing lies.
Aug. 24, 2016
ffdonnie
Men's 60
131 posts
Hitem,
I stand by my (probably)inappropriate, (possibly beer infused) post. However I feel for you. You guys have a problem down there. But the only way it will be taken care of is by formal complaint, according to DD. If that's been done, and it's still not being resolved, then this is where the naming of names needs to take place. In this public forum.
SSUSA is not very forthcoming with information when there is trouble in paradise. IMO it's another black eye for their business.
I want to know for sure who that TD is so I don't play in his tourneys. We can't band together to make a change if people are just going to throw out vague rumors.
Aug. 24, 2016
DaveDowell
Men's 65
2862 posts
We respect people's privacy here ... The formal complaint mechanism, where names are named, is in place, but it's a private matter between the "complainant" and the "accused" otherwise ... We're pretty comfortable with our dispute resolution methodology ... We have no obligation to be "forthcoming" on private matters in this intellectual (so to speak) wasteland ...
Aug. 24, 2016
Dbax
Men's 60
1864 posts
Ffdonnie, the director was named at the beginning of this post by Benji. I respect Hitemdeep's right to remain anonymous so he is not blackballed by this guy.
The problem as I see it is this director is not only Arizona's director but is also employed by SSUSA high up the chain. He does what he wants, period.
Aug. 24, 2016
Omar Khayyam
1329 posts
I'm impressed with the eloquence of some of our posters. Well done.

I've never played in Arizona (I assume this is the venue in question) and know nothing about the TD (other than what I've read over time on this blog), so as an outsider, here is what I am gathering:

Team decides to play in tournament and either ignorantly or deceptively has under-age players on team. They are given a spot in tournament and scheduled to play other teams.

Other players get wind of this team and protest to TD that team has under-age players (which will become evident when said players can't produce an SSUSA membership card...unless they are REALLY planning to cheat and going under assumed names). If deliberate cheating, team should be banned from all tourneys in future, in my opinion.

TD now has a choice to make, none of them great:
1. Let the team play exhibition (safety issues with this choice)
2. Ban the team and try to find a replacement (pretty tough at such a late date)
3. Ban the team and award every other team a forfeit victory (not much fun and violates minimum games played)
4. Redo the schedule and remake brackets (short notice, maybe field unavailability, last minute time changes to communicate to managers)

TD chooses the exhibition option.

TD gives out third place award to exhibition team (seems unlikely, but such is the claim). Anything I am missing?
Aug. 24, 2016
Infinity11
2 posts
Omar,
You are pretty much right on the money. Although, they did not receive any awards for third. It was pretty crazy at the table toward the end because it got rained out but I am 99% sure they didn't get any awards. Also, from what I have heard, they didn't call the TD prior to the tournament and let him know that they were bringing younger guys. One of the guys on our team was the one that notified the TD that they had young guys and that they either checked in under another name or never checked in at all. I feel that everyone wants to point fingers at the TD but really how is he to know that these teams are bringing illegal players until they get to the tournament.
Aug. 24, 2016
OZ40
536 posts
I personally would feel so much better as I picked up my teeth off the ground that I had just gotten drilled by an underage exhibition player than someone my own age......
Aug. 24, 2016
Hitemdeep
44 posts
Infinity I guess your point 1% comes into play here because I am 110% positive you statements are completely false and I will not comment on this anymore if you will quit posting LIES!!!! Everyone knew exactly the situation before Saturday.
Oz you are completely correct this was 1 of 2 of my biggest issues probably my #1 issue safety! Them getting their tshirts didn't phase me a bit I don't need another softball TShirt. Lol
Aug. 24, 2016
Omar Khayyam
1329 posts
OZ40, you made me laugh! Thanks for the chuckle.
Aug. 25, 2016
Joncon
328 posts
From my perspective, 40 year olds are ALL underage lol.
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