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Discussion: Ruling clarification

Posted Discussion
Oct. 7, 2016
stick8
1905 posts
Ruling clarification
Batter runs up in the box to hit and is called out for being out of the box. The ball he hit goes out. Does this count toward their home run total?
Oct. 7, 2016
rlspls1974
Men's 65
113 posts
As soon as the batter is called out the ball is dead.
So no, it does not count toward the home run total.
Oct. 7, 2016
SSUSA Staff
3129 posts
We respectfully disagree. ANY batted ball that clears the fence and leaves the field of play in fair territory untouched before hitting the ground counts in the team's HR total for the game. This is regardless of the ultimate call on the play, such as the hypothetical fact pattern mentioned. Other examples would include, but not be limited to, a base runner being called for the 3rd out because of leaving the base early, a batter being called out for batting out of order, etc.

Oct. 7, 2016
rlspls1974
Men's 65
113 posts
Ok staff, that makes no sense.
The player was called OUT prior to the ball leaving he park. Play stops, ball is dead, runners return to the base previously held.
How is your ruling possible?
Oct. 7, 2016
Dbax
Men's 65
1975 posts
Have to agree with rispis. This makes no sense.

Banned In Arizona
Oct. 7, 2016
SSUSA Staff
3129 posts
The batter hit the ball out of the park ... That's a home run for the "TEAM COUNT" even though it may be subsequently negated for "SCORE" purposes ... By extension of your analysis, then a base runner leaving early, or a batter out of turn, would not result in an addition to the team count in your view? ... The simple "if it went out untouched in the air in fair territory it adds to the team HR count" is the way we have consistently applied the interpretation ... Before we adopted "hit and sit", a base runner who failed to advance one base, causing the 3rd out of an inning, also added to the team HR count without scoring a run ... If this was ruled otherwise in any SSUSA sanctioned event recently, it was simply an umpire's error ... The foregoing interpretation is not likely to change in the foreseeable future ...

RELATED: We also track on the Official Game Card ALL balls hit out of the park in fair territory, including this type and all excess HR's, for purposes of evaluating a team's power within it's current rating level ...

Oct. 7, 2016
coop3636
454 posts
so if a ump calls time out and then the batter hits one over then fence, it counts towards the HR total?
This is same scenario as the dead ball.
I think SSUSA staff is wrong on this one.
Copp3636
ps.. I would lose my protest money on this one if that is the case.
Oct. 7, 2016
SSUSA Staff
3129 posts
coop ... You're digging real deep into the "hypothetical barrel" on that one ... If the ump called time out, there was "no pitch" and, accordingly, nothing happened ... And it's not a good idea for you to try it again with BP warmup before the game starts ... Those don't count either! ...
Oct. 7, 2016
Chief144
Men's 70
154 posts
It happened this past weekend at BLD & it was called correctly by the umpire & the Field Director. Batter was called out for stepping out of the box & hit it over the fence, batter out, HR added to teams total.
Oct. 7, 2016
rlspls1974
Men's 65
113 posts
Staff, I don't get it but if you say so.
Can you please provide the rule number/paragraph?

Learn something new everyday.

Thanks
Oct. 7, 2016
coop3636
454 posts
I still don't agree
I dead ball is a dead ball, all action stops.
And how can a HR count (toward your HR total) if it doesn't count toward your run total?
Makes no sense to me


And what I was saying earlier, I have seen a pitch being delivered and the ump calls NO PITCH, and the batter swings at it anyway.
That's the scenario I was talking about.
Oct. 7, 2016
SS11
46 posts
So if bases are loaded and out, and this happens,the batter is out, but all three runs score?
Oct. 8, 2016
B.J.
915 posts
I agree with what STAFF says... that this is how the rule is being called... that doesn't always make it right...its just SSUSA's interpretation of the rule... I agree with COOP that a dead ball being called is same as a time call STAFFS example of a runner leaves a base to soon...the umpire should call dead ball during the pitch....therefore nothing should count after the call.... again that is not SSUSA's interpretation
Oct. 8, 2016
DCPete
401 posts
Pathetically stupid; how can a ball over the fence count against your Home Run total when it's NOT a Home RUN???
Oct. 8, 2016
L.Martin
Men's 50
47 posts
So let me get this straight, your penalizing the batter twice in one play, he is out for being out of the box and the team loses a HR.
Oct. 8, 2016
Dbax
Men's 65
1975 posts
This is an in interpretation that needs to be changed.

Banned in Arizona
Oct. 9, 2016
curty
Men's 60
180 posts
seems it is some what the same as a bases loaded, no out, 4 runs in, over the fence SINGLE. Counts against total, but only 1 run counts. As the out was recorded after the ball was hit, right call.
Oct. 9, 2016
DaveDowell
Men's 65
3530 posts
DCPete: Yes, it's counted as a team HR, just not scored as one on the scoreboard (see below).

L.Martin: The flip side of that same coin is that you would penalize the defense by letting the offense "reload" and try again later, maybe even legally. The "out of the batter's box" call is a serious violation that can expose the pitcher to risk of injury. We are very comfortable with the strength of the penalty, especially if the batter wants to burn a team HR with that kind of serious rule transgression.

Dbax: That's highly unlikely. This umpires' interpretation has been around for at least 10-15 years. It was most commonly invoked in the case of "touch one base" violations before we adopted "hit and sit". There will be a proposal to formally add this interpretation to Rulebook 7.3 BATTING POSITION at the National Rules Committee sessions during this year's annual convention. Its odds of passage should be extremely high.

Oct. 9, 2016
rlspls1974
Men's 65
113 posts
Curty,
Apples and Oranges, in your example the 5th run scored ending the inning.
This Out of the box interpretation is not"Logical"
Oct. 9, 2016
Dbax
Men's 65
1975 posts
Curty, like said above, it's not the same thing.

DD, please explain SSUSA's thought process of penalizing the team when an out has already been called on the batter. Why should this count against the home run total? That's crazy.

Banned in Arizona
Oct. 9, 2016
BallPlayer35
Men's 60
17 posts
The out of the box rule needs to change on my opinion. Giving the pitcher an additional 5ft behind the rubber changes the arch of the ball when it hits the plate. Pitcher pitches a 6ft pitch and hits the front of the plate, it is impossible to hit the ball in a normal strike zone. For someone like myself that has long legs, the only way for me to hit this pitch is to step out of the box. We actually tested this theory and I stepped out every time. Please note that I am trying to hit the ball when it is either even or above my knees.

Senior Softball, please test my theory and you will see. My suggestion is to not make the plate a strike.
Oct. 10, 2016
DCPete
401 posts
Just put a line from the 3rd Base line to the 1st Base line 40" in front of the plate. If the batter steps over the line before he hits the ball (or steps on or over the plate) he's Out. The Batter's Box is unnecessary just like no cares about or enforces the Catcher's Box, the Coaches Boxes or the Pitcher Box.
Get rid of it!!!
Oct. 18, 2016
just a player
Men's 60
11 posts
my experience with this rule has been with players running up to hit the ball. However, it is rarely called as most umpires that I have had the pleasure experience don't know how far the box goes in front of the plate or simply ignores where the batter is stepping as there is rarely a line showing the front of the batter's box.

To BallPlayers35 some pitches are unhittable in a lot of situations. Change your swing for a great pitch against you.
Oct. 25, 2016
Boom Boom 1
Men's 60
10 posts
To add to this dilemma, our softball batter's box is 6ft long (little league dimenions). Major league batter's boxes are 7ft long. This is more like it for Men.
Oct. 25, 2016
Boom Boom 1
Men's 60
10 posts
and to further complicate things:
the softball batter's box was never adjusted for the plate being a strike. In the old days, the hitting the plate was always a ball. When the rubber matts/plates came into play the plate became a strike with no adjustment (backwards) of the batter's box.
Oct. 25, 2016
LP
317 posts
As I read and try to understand why it's not a dead ball when the batter steps out of the box and still count a ball hit over the fence toward the total home run count but not be counted as a run, then with this type of reasoning since the rules don't count it as a dead ball, then if the batter steps out of the box and is called out and say there is a runner on first and the short stop fields the ball he should be allowed to turn a double play, that's with the reasoning by what SSUSA says that this is not a dead ball situation.
Oct. 25, 2016
B94
Men's 50
138 posts
I personally can't see how it isn't a dead ball situation if the batter is called for being out of the box??? Otherwise your reasoning is bang on LP - if the result of the swing counts on a HR ball it should also count in a DP situation... This is why I have always understood that it is simply a dead ball out. Maybe this is something SSUSA needs to revisit and clarify.

BB1 I agree with what you are saying about the length of the batters box not being adjusted for the length of the plate however the batters box should be extended forward to account for the short strike (which was formerly a ball if it hit the plate) not backwards so you can effectively hit that pitch. I'm 6'3" and my stride length is 4'. Maybe a better way to look at staying in the "batter's box" is that the rear foot must be within the length of the strike mat when the batter swings. Just a thought...
Oct. 25, 2016
Turbo 34
Men's 50
47 posts
There is no way you can count it toward a teams home run total. The reason I make that statement is: What if there's TWO outs in the inning and the hitters team has already used up all there allotted home runs. That would make four outs! Now what happens?
Oct. 25, 2016
ffdonnie
Men's 60
132 posts
Wow, senior softball has some pretty dumb rules, but this is the dumbest I have ever heard of. I agree out of the box is an out, but to count it as a home run with no run scored?
It's an illegally struck ball, dead ball! This sounds like a rule made up by someone who has never hit one out, and never will.

SSUSA, you guys just live for controversy and heated arguments, don't you? I can see this one being very loud and very long on the field. Really, really dumb.
Oct. 25, 2016
Panther
Men's 70
30 posts
The batter's box is supposed to be 7' x 3' according to SSUSA rules.
Oct. 25, 2016
SSUSA Staff
3129 posts
ffdonnie ... It's been a VERY short discussion on the few occasions it arises ... The "out of the batter's box" violation almost always occurs on the front edge or the home plate side, lunging for a ball ... Both of those circumstances pose the potential for pitcher injury ... It's a serious offense that merits a serious penalty, so we do! ... The most simple "fix" is really quite obvious: STAY IN THE BOX ...
Oct. 25, 2016
Turbo 34
Men's 50
47 posts
You didn't address what happens if there's no home runs left and two outs in the inning. That's four outs! Two plus one for out of the box and one for over the fence after the limit.
Oct. 25, 2016
SSUSA Staff
3129 posts
Nawwww ... That's an easy one ... Multiple choice for whatever the ump wants to call: [1] DBO for an extra HR or [2] "out of the box" violation out ... By your hypothetical, the HR count was already maxed out by then, so it doesn't matter at all what gets called ... It's an out and the -inning at bat is over either way ... It's a bit of a silly hypothetical: right up there with the defensive team that turns a double play thinking there was only one out, but there were actually two down at the time ... No 4th out there, either ... Don't over-think this one ... Just STAY IN THE BOX and it's not going to be even a temporary issue ...
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