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Online now: 4 members: Bluerhino45, Schibs, TABLE SETTER 11, dawg888; 104 anonymousDiscussion: rules
| Posted | Discussion |
| Nov. 16, 2016 hurdler52 22 posts | rules What is the ruling on a play where the first baseman steps on the orange part of a two part first base instead of the white part? |
| Nov. 17, 2016 coop3636 514 posts | This question needs more information to be answered correctly. If it is just a regular play on a batted ball, the runner will be safe. If the 1st baseman is trying to avoid a collision, then the batter is out If it is a play from an outfielder trying for a double play, the runner is safe. hope this helps, and I hope my answers are correct I am sure if they are not, I will be corrected. coop3636 |
| Nov. 17, 2016 BruceinGa Men's 70 3233 posts | Coop, you answered that just like you were a first baseman! ;) |
| Nov. 17, 2016 SSUSA Staff 3490 posts | coop3636 did a good analysis ... Here are two simple general rules to apply in the absence of much detail in the stated hypothetical ... • On the initial play at first base involving a batter runner: Batter runner must go to orange and defender to white ... Batter may go to white (as coop3636 described) to avoid a collision, it's an umpire judgment call not subject to protest or appeal, but defender must still go to white to secure an out. • After batter-runner becomes a base runner: White and orange bags are treated as one bag and base runner or defender may utilize either section of first base. |
| Nov. 17, 2016 hurdler52 22 posts | Thank you, now let me add a twist. The batter/base runner fails to step on any part of the base while trying to avoid contact with the 1st baseman or simply because the batter/base runner assumes he is out. Comments please. |
| Nov. 17, 2016 coop3636 514 posts | Bruce, I am just a coach that likes to know the rules. It comes in handy many times during the year. And I umpired for 15 years.lol Hurdler.. The umpire will not make any call (safe or out) If the defensive person tags the bag, it will be a protest call before the next pitch. If the 1st baseman never touches the bag, when the batter/runner goes back and touches the bag, the umpire will call him safe. Hope this helps coop3636 As far as I know, the avoiding collision has no bearing on not touching the base, but I may be mistaken on this. |
| Nov. 17, 2016 B.J. 1107 posts | hurdler...the B/R "IS" allowed to miss 1st base if he is avoiding a fielder/collision... and should be called safe if in the umpires judgement he beat the throw ....also on a play where the B/R just mistakenly misses the base but beats the throw...the umpires mechanic should be to make a safe call since all runners are assumed to have touched any base they are going to...after passing the bag and the safe call then it becomes the defenses responsibility to appeal that he missed the bag before the B/R returns to the bag...by either a tag of the B/R or by stepping on the bag and making the appeal |
| Nov. 17, 2016 coop3636 514 posts | BJ I won't argue that the ump will make the safe call (I don't agree, but I am not 100% sure), but your statement about the appeal is wrong. There is no way you have time to appeal the play BEFORE the runners gets back to 1st base. The appeal has to be made BEFORE the next pitch. Hopefully SSUSA will settle this. coop3636 |
| Nov. 17, 2016 B.J. 1107 posts | coop....I'm 100% sure...the defense can only appeal before the runner returns to the bag...once he gets back he has legally attained the bag...so what can they appeal..as far as having time most often it is the catcher or pitcher that see it and they immediately make the appeal in plenty of time. a scenario you are talking about might be a runner going from 1st to 3rd and missing 2nd base....then you have to make the appeal that the runner missed 2nd base before the next pitch |
| Nov. 17, 2016 Garocket Men's 55 259 posts | Coop better look that on up cause you are wrong. The runner his assumed to have touched the bag once he passes it. If the 1st baseman or any player says he missed the base and the 1st baseman is standing on the base he would be declared out unless he had already returned to the base. Think about it this way. If a runner is on 1st and the batter hits a single R1 misses 2nd base, no one except the umpire seen it, and the outfielder throws it to second and the 2nd baseman is standing on second nobody says anything the umpire does not call him out without an appeal. WHY because once a runner passes a bag he has assumed to have touched it unless there is an appeal. Same at first. |
| Nov. 17, 2016 Garocket Men's 55 259 posts | In the above the R! went to third Sorry |
| Nov. 18, 2016 coop3636 514 posts | BJ.. Rule 1.1 on page 19 says: " AN appeal play is a play on which an umpire may not make a decision until requested by a manager, coach or player. The appeal must be made before the next legal or illegal pitch or before the pitcher and all the infielders have clearly vacated their normal fielding positions and have left fair territory on their way to the bench or dugout area. On the last play of the game, an appeal can be made until the umpires leave the field of play" types of appeal plays 1. missing a base 2.leaving a base early 3.batting out of order etc etc. All appeals can be made until the next pitch. coop3636 |
| Nov. 18, 2016 B.J. 1107 posts | coop, and for 99% of appeals that is correct...but with a B/R missing 1st base it is before he returns to the bag....also say the runner missed 1st base on going for a double..then the appeal would be before the next pitch |
| Nov. 18, 2016 coop3636 514 posts | I disagree, but will wait until SSUSA puts in their opinion. |
| Nov. 18, 2016 stick8 1992 posts | Hurdler in your scenario the umpire calls the runner safe. But if the first baseman get the ball and either tags the batter-runner (while he's off the base) or touches the white part of the base before the batter-runner acquires it that batter-runner is out. |
| Nov. 18, 2016 Mango Men's 50 159 posts | So what happens if the batter runner steps right in the middle of both bags hitting them simultaneously beating the throw by half a second (first baseman uses proper bag). Is the batter runner out for hitting the white bag or safe because he used the orange bag as required by rule? This actually happened in our World Series game this past October. |
| Nov. 18, 2016 B.J. 1107 posts | B/R is allowed the safety bag and only the safety bag...so if he beats the throw and hits both bags he should be called out...and this is an automatic call...no appeal is needed |
| Nov. 18, 2016 B.J. 1107 posts | Dave, can you answer the above question of coop and I...whether the appeal has to be made before the runner gets back to 1st or can the appeal be made after runner returns to the bag but before the next pitch....thx. |
| Nov. 18, 2016 coop3636 514 posts | BJ You are wrong, again..lol If the runner hits ANY part of the orange bag, he is safe (even if he hits the white and orange at the same time) |
| Nov. 18, 2016 DieselDan Men's 75 602 posts | Since cooper3636 typed the rules that stated the appeal has to be made before the next pitch and then listed the types of appeal, there should not be any discussion about before the runner returns to first base. How the hell will the defense have time to do that if the ball is still live and who the hell came up with that type of appeal? (Sorry gang, it's been a bad week explaining rules, at least the ones I know cold, to friends who cannot comprehend what the're reading and will not take off their blinders.) |
| Nov. 19, 2016 B.J. 1107 posts | coop...if im wrong??? it certainly wont be the 1st time...in fact my wife tells me im wrong all the time....hopefully Dave will soon wake from his nap and give us an answer to both of the above questions |
| Nov. 19, 2016 DaveDowell Men's 70 4317 posts | Here's the current formula: 800-mile Road trip to Phoenix + 210-team tournament + 33 fields over 8 complexes = No time for naps or that famous off-season exercise of "Stump the Ump" ... We will do some research on the Appeal issue and report back next week ... B.J. and Mango • As for the white bag/orange bag issue, that's an easy one, although often misunderstood ... Please carefully re-read Rulebook §8.4(1) ... The ONLY requirement imposed on a batter-runner is that he must touch the orange bag on a close play at first ... There is NOTHING in the rule prohibiting him from touching the white bag ... Umpires consistently miss this call by ruling "Batter is out because he touched the white bag" ... There is no such rule violation ... By Rule (properly applied) he's out ONLY if he fails to touch the orange bag ... Making contact with portions of both bags on the way by is NOT an infraction ... Ruling is: SAFE |
| Nov. 19, 2016 stick8 1992 posts | Mango, the way you word it in your scenario I have the runner safe. Congrats on winning Vegas! |
| Nov. 19, 2016 Mango Men's 50 159 posts | Stick, thank you. It was another great competitive tournament! And both the umpire and the tournament director(Otis) on appeal got the call right .When I looked it up after the fact the rule is written exactly as Dave says. I was one of the misinformed ones who mistakenly believed that the rule was the batter was out if he hit the white bag on a play at first. Probably because I’ve seen it called before in games and heard the umpire verbalize the rule that way. Again both the umpire and tournament director in our game got it right. Now, onto my real point. The ruling made me think “why do we have the double bag in the first place”. I thought the double bag was put in as a safety issue to help avoid collisions at first base, much the same as the scoring line at home plate was too help avoid collisions at home. This year I have twice been involved in games where runners were called out for touching the back side corner of the batters box line as they cut across toward the first base dugout after scoring. Both times when there was no play there. The distance between home plate and the back corner of the batters box is far greater than the distance between two adjoining bags at first. Since this rule of dragging a foot across the back batters box was so strictly enforced I assumed the same would be applied to the double bag at first (had it been the rule). I believe a devastating collision at first is much more likely to occur when a batter runner encroaches onto the white bag than when a player walks (yes walks) across the back corner of a batters box. In my 12 years of Senior Softball I have seen no collisions at home yet witnessed several at first base including one devastating one that left one of the players with permanent crippling injuries. If the purpose of the double bag is a safety one then perhaps the rule can be revisited and rewritten to move the batter runner a little bit farther away from the first baseman. If the purpose of the double bag is for something else I would be interested as to what it is. |
| Nov. 19, 2016 k man Men's 65 326 posts | our local 60+ league says runner 'may only' touch orange bag in which case the runner would be out if he touched both. SSUSA different as per Dave. And yes there is an exception for collision avoidance. Also our league makes no mention of runner crossing batters box lines so there would be no out for stepping across box when walking to dugout. Bottom line, know your rules! SSUSA, ISSA, ASA, USSSA, local rules. Having a hard copy at games also helps. |
| Nov. 20, 2016 Davy 22 posts | One more twist. it happened to me. Big first baseman comes off bag toward home to get errant throw thus BLOCKING the baseline. I had choice to veer into the infield and the thrown ball or veer into foul territory to avoid COLLISION. At full speed I veered into foul territory thus missing the blocked bags, both white and orange and passed both bags clearly safe with no tag. The first baseman realized I had not touched either bag and walked over to first base and smartly put his foot on the white bag and claimed an out. Well into right field, I walked back to first base and smartly claimed to be safe. Was I out or safe and why? |
| Nov. 20, 2016 SSUSA Staff 3490 posts | You're whatever the umpire called ... It's a JUDGMENT CALL not subject to protest or appeal: SAFE because you missed everything if he thought you were avoiding a collision or OUT if he didn't think so on the collision avoidance component of the judgment ... |
| Nov. 21, 2016 stick8 1992 posts | Totally understand your point Mango. Maybe this has been tried or considered before but one thing I've thought of is instead of the safety bag being connected to first base have the safety bag about 4 or 5 feet over. It would be similar how the scoring plate at home is located. On a infield play at first the runner has to veer off to the safety bag. Whatcha think? jmho |
| Nov. 21, 2016 DaveDowell Men's 70 4317 posts | I think there will be somewhere around a 0.04% of softball facilities that will sink new base anchor systems for this; and I think there will be somewhere around a 99.96% player objection rate to using the flat little orange throw-downs as an alternative to make this happen! If you want runners veering wide, maybe consider a "safe" line analogous to the "scoring line" and keep the batter-runner completely away from 1B like we do at Home plate/Strike mat ... Crazier ideas have been implemented! |
| Nov. 21, 2016 stick8 1992 posts | Dave, a line would work too!! |
| Nov. 21, 2016 mck71 Men's 60 344 posts | Great idea Dave, like the line but that would add another element to umpire judgement, whether B/R was trying to avoid collision (safe) or a tag (out)if say throw was offline. Extended line would give B/R a little more room to veer out of the way. |
| Nov. 21, 2016 DieselDan Men's 75 602 posts | The line at first would have arguments like at home when there is discussion by the runner who says my foot was past the line, but the pitcher said it wasn't on the ground, and the ump is still behind the plate (one ump system) and couldn't tell where the foot was. |
| Nov. 22, 2016 k man Men's 65 326 posts | I agree with Dan, in a 1 umpire system it would be a nightmare of arguments. A lot more than the line was instituted to solve. By the way, are there really that many calls at 1st with the possibility of a collision at 1st. If so, I haven't seen them in the travel ball, 40+ and 60+ leagues I play in. |
| Nov. 28, 2016 B.J. 1107 posts | Dave, I was wondering if you had time to research the appeal procedure when the B/R misses 1st base but beats the throw .... can the appeal be made until he returns to the bag or can it be made even after he returns to the bag but before the 1st pitch...Thx. |
| Nov. 29, 2016 DaveDowell Men's 70 4317 posts | B.J. and coop3636 ... Here's a bit of a diplomatic response, but you both could be correct, depending on the timing, on this limited fact pattern, which EXCLUDES the "avoidance of a collision" exception ... Until the umpire calls "time", the Live Ball Appeal (LBA) rules, which we explained to B.J. a while back, are in effect: If the defender tags either the runner or 1st base before the runner returns to touch 1B in a live ball situation, he is out on a successful live ball appeal ... After the umpire calls "time": IF "time" is called before the batter/runner returns to 1st, such as on overrun situation with no intention to advance to 2nd, missing 1st base may result in an out on a dead ball appeal if the appeal made before the next pitch ... IF "time" was called after the runner returned successfully to 1B and absent a LBA, the batter is safe and there is no further appeal available ... Those are the potential results, all based on live vs. dead ball appeal AND timing of the runner returning to 1B ... Hope this helps ... |
| Nov. 29, 2016 B.J. 1107 posts | Dave.. your answer below on a DBA is confusing when you say an appeal can be made before the next pitch... you do mean that the DBA still has to be made before the B/R returns to 1st....other wise the appeal is not legal IF "time" is called before the batter/runner returns to 1st, such as on overrun situation with no intention to advance to 2nd, missing 1st base may result in an out on a dead ball appeal if the appeal made before the next pitch |
| Nov. 29, 2016 DaveDowell Men's 70 4317 posts | B.J. - NO ... The Dead Ball Appeal is available to the defense before the next pitch in the event the umpire called "time" before [1] the runner returned to 1B after the overrun, AND/OR [2] before the defense tagged him or the 1B white bag, which in effect terminated the Live Ball Appeal prematurely ... |
| Dec. 1, 2016 B.J. 1107 posts | Since the SSUSA rule book does not really cover specific appeals I looked in the ASA Rules Supplement for an answer... This supplemet to the rule explains how the appeal must be done. It says the appeal must be made prior to the runner returning to first base while the ball is live. If the B/R misses 1st base on the way to 2nd base then a dead ball appeal would be allowed. L. Missing First Base Before the Throw Arrives. When a runner passes first base before the throw arrives, they are considered to have touched the base unless properly appealed. On appeals involving the double base, when the batter-runner touches the white rather than the colored portion and a play is made, the same procedure applies. When an appeal is made in both situations, it must be made prior to the runner returning to first base while the ball is live. |
| Dec. 1, 2016 surf88 Men's 65 1000 posts | Dear Dave, I would like clarification on a play that occurred at Papago Park in the 65M division. I hit a line drive to 1st baseman and it glanced off his glove into shallow RF. Pitcher ran to take a throw at 1sr base from the 1B defender. I ran to 1B to beat the throw. Pitcher tripped or could not stop and ran across the orange bag and I hit him wide open, no chance to hit the breaks. We both went flying. I was called out. The collision was so intense I could not think quickly enough to inquire why I was called out. As I look back, I believe my run path was unintentionally blocked and I should have been safe. Would appreciate any/all thoughts. Not complaining here but am nursing a cracked rib. |
