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Online now: 5 members: Born to run, TABLE SETTER 11, Tater1022, TheBop, WO; 166 anonymousDiscussion: Scoring of Runs - Question concerning interpretation of Section 5.7
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| Dec. 5, 2016 BillC48 16 posts | Scoring of Runs - Question concerning interpretation of Section 5.7 Runners on 2nd and 3rd with one out. Batter flies out to right field and both runners tag to advance, runner on 3rd leaves a little early and umpire observes the early departure. Throw goes towards 3rd baseman and is thrown directly into the 3rd base dugout. Runner from 2nd gets 1 bag and scores. The defensive team appeals that the runner from 3rd left early and the umpire agrees and calls the runner out, eliminating that run. The question is, does the run that scored from second count or does the appeal eliminate the run. I believe because it wasn't a force play, the run from second counts, but would like that either confirmed or corrected. |
| Dec. 5, 2016 SSUSA Staff 3484 posts | BillC48 ... We concur ... The RUN BY R2 IS SCORED ... This is not a "live ball appeal" as mentioned in subpart B.2. of the applicable rule below ... R3 is called out on appeal for leaving early, but R2 scores on the timing play ... Subparts B.1. and B.3. do not apply since there was no force play involved ... EFFECT: One run in, half-inning at bat concludes ... __________ §5.7 - SCORING OF RUNS (SSUSA Rule Book page 31) B. No run shall be scored if the third out of the inning is the result of: 1. A batter-runner being called out prior to reaching first base or any other runner forced out due to the batter becoming a batter-runner. 2. A runner being put out by a tag or live ball appeal play prior to the lead runner crossing the scoring line or touching the scoring plate. 3. A preceding runner is declared out on appeal involving a force play. NOTE: An appeal may be made after the third out in order to nullify a run. |
| Dec. 5, 2016 BillC48 16 posts | Thanks for the quick response. I looked at some of the older rule books and noticed that a few tears back 5.7 B(3) read: "A preceding runner is declared out on an appeal play." I assume the a that point the run from second would not have counted. Why the change? |
| Dec. 5, 2016 DaveDowell Men's 70 4312 posts | I don't remember the year the Committee made that change, but do recall the discussion ... Your presumption that under the old rule the R2 run would not have counted is correct ... Changing sub-part 3. to read: "..A preceding runner is declared out on |
| Dec. 8, 2016 paul0784 Men's 60 218 posts | Isn't the lead runner safe also because he was awarded home on the throw out of play? |
| Dec. 8, 2016 B94 Men's 50 138 posts | Lead runner is out on the dead ball appeal so the run doesn't count. |
| Dec. 8, 2016 stick8 1991 posts | It makes no sense that a runner from second be credited with scoring a run when the third out was made by the runner at third. |
| Dec. 8, 2016 paul0784 Men's 60 218 posts | Again, it doesn't matter when the runner left the bag at third because the ball went out of play so the bases are awarded to the runners. So both runs should score? SSUSA please correct me if I am wrong? |
| Dec. 8, 2016 paul0784 Men's 60 218 posts | The catch was made causing second out and the throw went out of play. Both runners awarded 2 bases automatically. |
| Dec. 8, 2016 B94 Men's 50 138 posts | I may be wrong but I would think that because of the dead ball appeal this is a timing play. So yes the catch was made for the second out, then the throw was made which went out of play awarding the runners 2 bases which would score both runs. Then the appeal is made that the runner from third left early which is upheld so the runner from third is out on the appeal, therefore his run doesn't score. However, the run scored by the runner from 2nd base would still count as he scored before the third out was recorded on the dead ball appeal. |
| Dec. 8, 2016 stick8 1991 posts | B94 a timing play is on a live ball. Example: Runners on first and third, 1 out. Fly ball to right field. Runner at third tags up, runner at first does not tag--is jogging toward second thinking there were 2 outs. Catch is made, 2 outs. After his teammates scream at him to go back to first, the runner heads back to first. Rightfielder throws to first, successfully doubling off the runner. If the runner at third touches the second plate or scoring line before the out at first is recorded the run scores. If not, the run doesn't score. Here's one for you: Runner on first, 1 out. Batter hits a line drive to second. Second baseman catches it. Runner on first is caught dead nuts off the bag. The throw to double him off is wild and goes out of play. Umpire calls "dead ball" and awards the runner second base. The runner goes right to second without tagging first. Defense appeals the runner at first never tagged. Is he safe or out? |
| Dec. 9, 2016 B.J. 1105 posts | runner is out... he must go back and tag up before advancing |
| Dec. 9, 2016 umpire 14 8 posts | sticks...you are correct about the timing play rule. But lets suppose the runner at first base did tag up after the catch and the ball is thrown out of play. Remember he already had first established. Therefore he would be awarded 3rd...not 2nd base on the overthrow. |
| Dec. 9, 2016 stick8 1991 posts | BJ, you are correct!! Umpire 14 you are correct as well!! In USSSA it's two bases from the time of the throw if it's from the outfield. Two bases from the time of the pitch if it's from the infield. |
| Dec. 9, 2016 B.J. 1105 posts | STICK, its been a while since i've worked U-trip but I think they count returning to the bag as 1 bag awarded if the throw went out of play before the runner returned? |
| Dec. 9, 2016 stick8 1991 posts | BJ, you are correct!! Umpire 14 you are correct as well!! In USSSA it's two bases from the time of the throw if it's from the outfield. Two bases from the time of the pitch if it's from the infield. |
| Dec. 9, 2016 paul0784 Men's 60 218 posts | Couple years back they changed the rule to be more consistant so it's two bases at time of throw from wherever on the field. However, USSSA is different where if you are going back to the base last occupied that is considered one base. However, I think everyone is missing the point that once the ball goes out of play the play is dead and the timing rule is null because the award is automatic and all runners get two bases at the time of the release. So, it doesn't do any good for the base runner to go back and tag up because play is dead. All runners get 2 bases awarded. No one is called out and both runs score. |
| Dec. 10, 2016 B.J. 1105 posts | Paul, if a runner leaves the bag to soon on a caught fly ball and was heading back to tag up and the ball is thrown out of play before he gets back the runner must still return and touch the bag before advancing on awarded bases...failure to do so puts him in jeopardy of a dead ball appeal by the defense for not tagging... Returning to touch a base missed or one left too soon must occur prior to an award; therefore, on an overthrow the umpire should hesitate in making the award while watching what the runner does. If the runner shows no intention of returning to touch a base missed or re-tag a base left too soon, then the umpire should make the award. |
| Dec. 12, 2016 BillC48 16 posts | I started this conversation and came across a portion of the rules that doesn't seem to jive with my original interpretation. Section 8.1 Touching Bases in Order, states " E. Failure of a preceding runner to touch a base or to leave a base legally on a caught fly ball and who is declared out does not affect the status of a succeeding runner who touches the bases in proper order. However, if the preceding runner were to be called out for the third out of the inning, no succeeding runner may score a run. Doesn't this seem to contradict Section 5.7?? |
| Dec. 12, 2016 B.J. 1105 posts | BillC.... if you are talking about this part of 5.7 NOTE: An appeal may be made after the third out in order to nullify a run. No there is no contradiction because it is describing these 3 scenarios... B. No run shall be scored if the third out of the inning is the result of: 1. A batter-runner being called out prior to reaching first base or any other runner forced out due to the batter becoming a batter-runner. 2. A runner being put out by a tag or live ball appeal play prior to the lead runner crossing the scoring line or touching the scoring plate. 3. A preceding runner is declared out on appeal involving a force play. your scenario was diferent because you had a thrown ball that went out of play so therefore the run scored from 2nd |
