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Online now: 2 members: CHI-TOWN BALLERS, TABLE SETTER 11; 116 anonymousDiscussion: Staff
| Posted | Discussion |
| Dec. 19, 2016 missouridave Men's 60 166 posts | Staff I will try this again. The new tournament list does not show the ISA/SSUSA SouthEast tourney(unless I missed it) that was held last year in Tennessee for the first time. I know it was not well attended but wondered if SSUSA or ISA has made a final decision to not hold this tourney in 2017. Thanks. |
| Dec. 19, 2016 SSUSA Staff 3483 posts | Due to the untimely passing last March of the former ISA C.E.O., Don Stratton, there have been no formal discussions with the successor leadership of ISA about this event ... If something were to come to pass, we will so advise you and provide appropriate details at that time ... |
| Dec. 19, 2016 missouridave Men's 60 166 posts | Thanks for the response staff. I thought that SSUSA and ISA did some things together so hopefully someone will coordinate with the new leadership at ISA assuming they continue. |
| Dec. 20, 2016 raiderman66 77 posts | Can I ask someone to answer this question since SSUSA does co-ordinate some things. Why does ISA use a really good ball and SSUSA uses the very mediocre Stote ball? |
| Dec. 20, 2016 SSUSA Staff 3483 posts | raiderman66 ... You're a little off-point to this thread, but here goes ... The Anaconda Trump STOTE balls used by SSUSA and ISA are identical in all respects except for the logo stamped on them ... The ISA ball has the black "base burglar" logo and the SSUSA has the red "SSUSA" logo ... Both associations order them to the same specification together annually ... If your opinion is based on the ISA softballs used at the recent World Masters Championships in September/October, then you have an apples to oranges comparison ... The ISA balls used in Las Vegas were the "ROCK" ball and not the "STOTE" ... But "Stote to Stote", there is no difference, even down to the model numbers, other than the different logos, which we believe are not a performance changing characteristic ... |
| Dec. 20, 2016 curveball Men's 65 705 posts | "If" they are the same, why are we not allowed to use them in our SSUSA tournaments? |
| Dec. 21, 2016 SSUSA Staff 3483 posts | curveball ... That's simply an administrative decision to avoid the needless and non-meritorious arguments on the "are they the same?" debate ... They're the same, but this shuts that discussion down in advance, saving everyone, especially tournament officials, a lot of otherwise wasted time ... |
| Dec. 21, 2016 raiderman66 77 posts | Actually I was referring to the tournaments that use the Tattoo ball which are a lot better then the Stote ball. The balls used in vegas are great, no issues there at all. It's the regular tournaments that I am asking about. Thanks |
| Dec. 21, 2016 SSUSA Staff 3483 posts | SSUSA has a national softball contract with Anaconda Sports/BSN that requires our exclusive use of their softballs ... The Tattoo ball is manufactured and marketed by AD Starr ... |
| Dec. 21, 2016 B94 Men's 50 138 posts | Even with SSUSA having a national softball contract with Anaconda Sports/BSN that requires exclusive use of their softballs there should be other ball options besides the Stote are there not? Just a quick peek at the BSN website shows the EVIL 44/375 as an option. The feedback from your membership on the poor attributes of the Trump Stote should at least be enough for you to investigate other options I would hope. |
| Dec. 21, 2016 SSUSA Staff 3483 posts | B94 ... It appears the annual "bash the ball" discussion started a little early this year! ... We are very content with the combination of performance, price, availability and consistency over many years of using the Anaconda Trump Stote 44/375 ball ... It would be unreasonable to expect a change anytime soon ... |
| Dec. 21, 2016 missouridave Men's 60 166 posts | Staff, Not sure how my question morphed into a discussion on balls. I appreciate your honesty in stating that the Trump Stote is not going to change anytime soon in your opinion. I will say, and I believe the majority of Midwest teams would agree, that in the summer months here with our heat and humidity, the Trump Stote does not do well. Some of it may be folks leaving the balls in trunks, etc. in the heat. Regardless of that, the ball is not liked by most of your customers in this part of the country. Just hope that SSUSA will acknowledge what your customers are telling you. Thanks. |
| Dec. 21, 2016 SSUSA Staff 3483 posts | missouridave ... This topic is an annual exercise, as we mentioned above, and it's likely to sprout up anywhere, such as a thread hijack this time ... There are those here every year who are vocal about changing the ball ... Many others contact us privately and plead the case for not going to a hotter ball, but they fear public ridicule here ... This is a largely anonymous and uncontrolled commentary environment, and the next time we make any policy decision based on Message Board content will be an organizational first in the 30± year history of SSUSA ... For nostalgia sake, we'll dredge up now a very old "mantra" we used to post frequently in response to the "einstein rants" on this topic ... We posted this for him on multiple occasions annually, and weekly in some stretches when he'd get into a bad case of the stutters: "...There are no current plans to change the bat/ball technical specification combination away from the currently allowed 1.21 bpf bats and the Anaconda Trump Stote 44/375 ball..." ... That mantra still holds true today, at least a decade after first published ... |
| Dec. 22, 2016 DCPete 409 posts | But the thing is that Trump Stote ball is NOT 44 COR. Try dropping it on a hard surface & you'll see how it "bounces" about like a sack of oysters as in almost not at all. Then drop it on a hard surface with any other 44/375 ball & see how the Stote only "bounces" about half as much. The Stote is probably more likely a 40 COR ball at the most. |
| Dec. 22, 2016 tscs000 Men's 60 33 posts | What am I missing here? SSUSA has stated for 10 years that the ball of choice is the Anaconda Trump Stote 44/375 ball. SSUSA says they are very content with that ball despite complaints otherwise. Unless SSUSA is tied to a long multi year contract with Anaconda, why wouldn't SSUSA look into changing the ball? Isn't it the players that support all of senior softball and are the reason any of this is possible? Is SSUSA here for the players or here for their benefit only? The cost of senior softball tourneys is high as it is. Someone is making a lot of money from it, otherwise it wouldn't be here. These tournaments aren't here to break even. SSUSA is a business and I don't mind them making a profit, but if the majority of players don't like something, why wouldn't it be changed or at least considered? What would be the correct way to bring this up for consideration by SSUSA? |
| Dec. 22, 2016 DaveDowell Men's 70 4312 posts | tscs000 ... Here are a few things you may have missed ... [1] We are an IRC §501(c)(4) not-for-profit corporation ... [2] We zero-base budget annually, which is significantly different from a "maximize profit" business model ... [3] If you think our 2015 net income for the calendar year of $13,159 is "..making a lot of money from it..", there's not much we can say to correct your thinking ... If you are personally interested in the ball selection process, starting or buying a softball manufacturing and/or sales company and bidding on the contract is probably the most efficient way to seek a different result ... This is the 2016 edition of the annual "bash the ball" exercise, but it's not a one-way street ... There are many players who don't want a hotter ball, most notably as evidenced by the spike in opposition when we get ready to play in Las Vegas ... However, we are contractually obligated with LVSSA to use the "ROCK" ball there, but player support for it's use is far from unanimous ... As usual, this is another example of where a simplistic broad-brush condemnation of something we do doesn't reflect the complexities, economics and realities of the true circumstances ... |
| Dec. 22, 2016 missouridave Men's 60 166 posts | Dave Dowell, I always appreciate your straightforward responses, even if sometimes your sarcasm creeps in! I completely understand the position that is taken by SSUSA in terms of not responding to the comments on what is largely an anonymous board. I would point out to the other readers that you can click on my name and find out exactly who I am. I am not hiding who I am. I understand that some people don't like the ball and some people do like the ball. What process should I go through to ask SSUSA to consider doing an across the board survey to find out what the MAJORITY of customers would like to see as the standard ball? SSUSA did that for the 1 and 1 count and if you check my posts you will see that I have not complained since the verdict came in. (By the way it has been a couple of years since you did the last survey on that subject). Appreciate the opportunity to continue to play softball at my advanced age! Thanks. Missouri Dave |
| Dec. 22, 2016 B94 Men's 50 138 posts | Dave I don't think players are necessarily looking for a "hotter" ball but a more consistent ball. When it's cool and the air is dry the Stote performs fine, however, when it is hot or humid the ball performance diminishes severely. Maybe a ball change isn't in order but a nudge of the manufacturer to see what can be done to resolve the issues that are being brought to your attention. Safe bet this won't be the first time they have heard this... |
| Dec. 22, 2016 titanhd Men's 60 638 posts | Are all SSUSA tournaments qualifiers included,contractually or otherwise required to use the Stote ball? |
| Dec. 22, 2016 SSUSA Staff 3483 posts | All SSUSA administered events (TOC qualifiers, Eastern's, Western's, the Brickyard, etc.) are contractually obligated for the Trump Stote and the Southwest Championships and the World Masters are the "ROCK" by contract with LVSSA ... The independent tournament director events are "supposed" to be run in complete compliance with the SSUSA's sanctioning requirements ... However, that's not to say that all independent T.D.'s do so ... Sometimes it's "the balls" ... Sometimes it's the "1-1" count .. Sometimes it's shortened game times ... That will be a point of emphasis this Season to bring those T.D.'s into full compliance with what they agree to do when we sanction their events ... |
| Dec. 22, 2016 titanhd Men's 60 638 posts | Thanks Staff.Without naming tournments or Directors, I think it was obvious where I was going with my question. Per your response it appears that SSUSA stated "point of emphasis" is the right directive. |
| Dec. 22, 2016 missouridave Men's 60 166 posts | Staff, First I would agree with B94, not looking for a "hotter" ball, just want one that is consistent even in the heat and humidity in the Midwest. Second, will anyone respond to my request on how to approach SSUSA to inquire about the possibility of doing a survey? Or does the staff simply not respond to questions they do not want to answer? I write this only because you responded to the request about the use of balls but did not respond to my request for assistance. Thanks. Missouri Dave |
| Dec. 22, 2016 DaveDowell Men's 70 4312 posts | missouridave ... A couple of things ... We DO appreciate your willingness to ID yourself here ... Although it's never been a requirement, we can assure you that doing so lends instant credibility to what you write ... That's not the case for the "anonymous keyboard courage" flamers! ... As for a survey on softballs, we're not sure there is much to be gained by it as a practical matter ... We're very unlikely to change from Anaconda, certainly not during the term of the current ball contract ... We're also unlikely to go to a vastly more expensive ball like the "ROCK" unless, of course, it's clear in the survey that doing so will likely necessitate a rise in entry fees ... We'd also like tournament directors, and that includes our own at events we administer, to do their best to provide a cooler and shaded environment for ball storage ... By extension, that includes managers who may choose to toss their initial allotment in the trunk of their car in 100° heat for a couple hours before breaking them out and blaming us for them not meeting performance expectations! ... ALL balls degrade in warmer conditions, but that can most times be mitigated with common sense storage ... Thanks for commenting ... We'll take a look at it more closely after the Holidays ... If we do end up with a survey, please note that's NOT a binding vote for a change, but simply a look at the opinions of those who may choose to respond ... |
| Dec. 23, 2016 Benji4 Men's 55 289 posts | Dave So placing my BALLS in the ice chest instead of the trunk of my car will be okay? HAHAHA. Happy Holidays. And I always post my name.... |
| Dec. 23, 2016 missouridave Men's 60 166 posts | Dave, thanks for the response and Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. |
| Dec. 24, 2016 ffdonnie Men's 60 137 posts | Dave it's not going to make much difference how we store our balls (except Benjii4'/Aftershocks idea)when every umpire puts the extra balls on the backstop in the sun. Which brings us back to the crappy ball you use. Sounds like our only option is to put pressure on the manufacture. BOYCOTT ANACONDA/BSN, or whoever owns/ manufactures these balls now. |
| Dec. 24, 2016 DaveDowell Men's 70 4312 posts | That's hilarious!! ... Won't it be so much more fun, though, when you start your own association and can purchase any ball on the planet! ... |
| Dec. 26, 2016 Marv19 Men's 60 498 posts | Happy New Year everyone. Hope all had a a great Christmas. As to the post by SSUSA Staff on Dec 20th regarding the two softballs the ISA ROCK and the SSUSA Stote. Unfortunately I have to respectfully disagree. These two balls couldn't be more different. Like in Apples and Oranges they are both softballs. However a simple band saw slicing the two balls in half you will find the differences. The ROCK has a double cover with the outer cover being composite and the SSUSA Stote has a single synthetic cover. I don't have a degree in engineering but a fingernail test on the core will tell you the Rock has a more dense core. Kevin Schullstrom once told me the core on the ROCK was 525 compression. When he was at Anaconda he said this is because it was originally designed to compete with the fireball which had similar attributes. Both balls were designed to fool the then compression testing. As I understand it ASA and U Trip versions have a true 375 compression core now. Where as the ISA ROCK has remained the same. If so then the compression reading on the ball is incorrect. This is mainly why the ball will not degrade as rapidly in the heat. We use the ISA ROCK ball exclusive but personally I hate the ball. But the guys want to use it and so we offer it. On my last batch of balls (3 cases). My biggest compliant is somebody apparently redesigned that ball with a thinner outer cover. Why I can only speculate. I think maybe to lessen the whiffling motion it sometimes does in flight. (Acting like a knuckle ball but still rotating). Whatever genius did this they wont last but maybe a game or in some instances not even an inning. They scuff and they tear. The outer covers are junk IMO. I welcome your comments but do your own test. If you have a band saw do what we did and you will see the difference. Marv SCSSA www.socalssa.com |
| Dec. 26, 2016 SSUSA Staff 3483 posts | Marv ... We agree, but you may want to re-read what we posted about ISA-STOTE to SSUSA-STOTE balls: ______ The Anaconda Trump STOTE balls used by SSUSA and ISA are identical in all respects except for the logo stamped on them ... The ISA ball has the black "base burglar" logo and the SSUSA has the red "SSUSA" logo ... Both associations order them to the same specification together annually ... ______ The ISA-ROCK compared to ANY STOTE ball is a non-comparison ... They are completely unlike each other in terms of composition and manufacturing process ... Which is what we said ... |
| Dec. 27, 2016 Marv19 Men's 60 498 posts | Debate is fun and informative! In reference to your post above. I think where you go wrong is when you say "they are identical in all respects except for the logo stamped on them" This, IMO and Kevin who was in on the original design of the ball, a false narrative and I stated why. The ball is not 375/44 contrary to what is printed on the ball. If you run a compression test on the ISA ROCK I'm certain you will find that the ball is much higher in compression than what is printed on the cover. The ball in some circles is called a "Cheater Ball" That plus the double cover. One has a composite outer cover where the SSUSA Stote is synthetic. These alone make the ball different. Just like an apple and an orange :O) Oh... and if it matters one is markedly (about 20%) higher in price than the other. I guess my point is as you stated, in the above post, it gives the impression on one hand you're saying "they are identical except for the logos" and on the other hand you say "They are completely unlike each other in terms of composition and manufacturing process". This is an oxymoron (I just love it when I can use that word) and leaves the reader to wonder which is it? Marv SCSSA www.socalssa.com |
| Dec. 27, 2016 DOLFAN 90 posts | Who cares what friggin ball we use, with these stupid bats (including those dirty little bats some people use, you know who you are), does it really matter???? How much help do you need??? Enough already, Senior Softball has plenty of offense...geeeeeez |
| Dec. 27, 2016 softball4b Men's 70 1248 posts | Marv I do not think Staff is saying the Vegas/ISA Rock is the same ball as the Stote, two different balls. |
| Dec. 27, 2016 Dbax Men's 65 2100 posts | Marv, Mike is correct. Read it again. |
| Dec. 27, 2016 NCS13 Men's 50 13 posts | I think SSUSA has done an excellent job with their choice of softballs. I've played a bunch of tourneys in high temps and the Trump Stote always seems to carry just fine. Not sure what all the fuss is about. Keep up the good work!!! Sean Morgan Nor Cal Warriors #31 50 M+ |
| Dec. 27, 2016 Dbax Men's 65 2100 posts | Agreed! |
| Dec. 29, 2016 missouridave Men's 60 166 posts | NCS13 and Dbax, I appreciate that the Stote works well for you in California and Arizona. In the Midwest, St. Louis for me, the ball is fine in the spring and the fall. In the summer (July/August) it can be 100 with 75% humidity, with it certainly being in the 90's. I am not complaining about home runs with the Stote, I am complaining about it becoming a real mush ball in that heat and humidity. All I am asking for is SSUSA to consider our input and Dave has agreed to consider looking at it. Happy New Year to all. Missouri Dave (not yet banned anywhere!) |
| Dec. 29, 2016 softball4b Men's 70 1248 posts | Stote is a sock in temperatures above 90 and especially in Sacramento. The teams I have played on see their HR production drop 75-80 percent when we use the Stote ball in hot/humid weather. It works well in temperate weather, but not during the dog days of August. |
| Dec. 29, 2016 Dbax Men's 65 2100 posts | Sorry, but I have no sympathy for marginal hitters that cannot hit their home runs with their hot bats, because the ball has become "mushy". You know who you are. Banned in Arizona |
| Dec. 29, 2016 softball4b Men's 70 1248 posts | Very possible that might be true, but it does not make what I said not true. Stote ball is a good ball when the weather conditions are not adverse. Mike Adair Not as good as I once was and maybe not as good once as I ever was. |
| Dec. 29, 2016 missouridave Men's 60 166 posts | Dbax, No need to take shots at folks just because you don't agree with their opinion. I made it clear in my earlier notes that I am not looking for a "hotter" ball, just one that is consistent whether it is cool or hot and humid. I agree with Mike Adair and both he and I have our real names here. You must be a really great hitter compared to the rest of us. Dave Beckering |
| Dec. 29, 2016 Dbax Men's 65 2100 posts | Thanks! |
| Dec. 29, 2016 Dbax Men's 65 2100 posts | Oh, if you post your real name, as I had for 10 years, you run the risk of being banned in Arizona from playing in any of Rick Seifman's tournaments, if you disagree with how they're being run. |
| Dec. 30, 2016 DaveDowell Men's 70 4312 posts | Amusing thought of the day • It's interesting nobody has mentioned the other "variable" that usually experiences a performance decline in high(er) temperatures and humidity ► PLAYERS! (Maybe it's just easier to blame it on the ball) ... Happy New Year 2017 to everyone! ... Play safely and have fun! |
| Dec. 30, 2016 missouridave Men's 60 166 posts | Dave when it was over 100 degrees in Vegas in 2015 my team did not notice any problem with the balls at the Masters. Oh, that was the Rock. Maybe it is the ball! Sorry could not resist since you could not! Missouri Dave |
| Jan. 3, 2017 SS11 60 posts | It comes down to this in Southern California; Play in the two Vegas tournaments where they use the Rock, and then play in GSL/USSSA events locally that allow use of good balls. If you don't like the product being offered, you don't have to play. Hopefully wherever you are, there are alternatives that will make you happy. |
