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Online now: 2 members: 3_SoftballFreak, TABLE SETTER 11; 143 anonymousDiscussion: All you rule experts: Need your input..
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| Feb. 2, 2017 cuda65 69 posts | All you rule experts: Need your input.. ASA rules in senior softball league.. Bases loaded..outs unimportant..Batter hits a screamer down the third base line. Hits the runner while on the base in fair territory. Ball bounces away... My view is that it is a fair ball and the ball is in play. Umpire immediately called dead ball. Runner from third scores and the batter is awarded first base. all runners advance. The defensive third baseman was deep on the grass. What say you experts? The umpire making the call is a head umpire and very seasoned. |
| Feb. 2, 2017 HAT MAN Men's 50 229 posts | live ball play at your own risk. Otherwise guys will be aiming at teammates to get on base without a chance of getting out. |
| Feb. 2, 2017 SSUSA Staff 3485 posts | Not sure what the ASA interpretation might be, but the umpire made the correct call under the SSUSA Rulebook relevant section (emphasis added) ... §8.2 • BATTER BECOMES A BATTER-RUNNER C. When he bats a fair ball even though it strikes another player, umpire or their attached clothing or equipment. 1. If the runner is hit with a fair batted ball while touching a base, he is not out. EFFECT: The ball is live or dead depending on the position of the fielder closest to the ball. If the closest defensive player is in front of the base runner hit by the ball, the ball remains live. However, after the runner in contact with the base is hit by the batted ball, it shall be the same as hitting the ground. Since the ball remains live, the defense is free to make whatever plays are available. If the defensive player is behind the base runner, the ball is ruled dead, the hitter is awarded a base hit and runners are advanced only if forced to advance. 2. If the runner is hit by the ball while off base and before it passes an infielder (excluding the pitcher), the ball is dead and the hit runner is declared out. The batter-runner is awarded first base without liability to be put out. |
| Feb. 2, 2017 TimMcElroy 942 posts | This scenario is covered in Rule 8.2C of the SSUSA rulebook. Sounds like the umpire made the proper call. Dead ball. Batter-runner awarded 1st base. All other runners advance one base, if forced. If, for some reason, the 3rd baseman was positioned in front of the bag at the time of the pitch we would have had a live ball. The defensive player could pick the ball up and make whatever plays were available to him. Runners would advance at their own risk. |
| Feb. 2, 2017 TimMcElroy 942 posts | Glad we agree. |
| Feb. 2, 2017 cuda65 69 posts | Sorry Hat Man both you and I were wrong. SSUSA Staff and TimMcElroy were dead on. I love this site because you get immediate and expert opinions that reflect years of experience of playing and umpiring games. I just completed a survey from SPA and one question was how would I improve the SPA website. My answer was to create a message board similar to SSUSA`s. I check this message board everyday to keep up to date on the latest topics. |
| Feb. 3, 2017 HAT MAN Men's 50 229 posts | I think i screwed up on the defensive player option. As a sometimes pitcher I often break left and right. So if i broke right im closer to 3rd. SSUSA says in 2. excluding pitcher. SSUSA is pitcher excluded at all times regarding this rule.? the batted ball must be in the air correct when it hits the runner? It cannnot bounce first? Also wonder can i runner lean into a hit ball while on base al la Don Baylor? Not that I would but there are crazy ones out there. |
| Feb. 3, 2017 DaveDowell Men's 70 4312 posts | HAT MAN - • SSUSA is pitcher excluded at all times regarding this rule? ... YES • The batted ball must be in the air correct when it hits the runner? It cannot bounce first? ... NOPE ... There is no differentiation between a line drive or a short hop ... A pop-up, under the hypothetical given with bases loaded, could result in an intervening Infield Fly call if less than two outs • Also wonder can a runner lean into a hit ball while on base al la Don Baylor? ... MAYBE ... That would be a judgment call that, as a Director, I would absolutely back an umpire who might rule interference (Rulebook Definition §1.45 - Interference is the act of an offensive player or team member that impedes or confuses a defensive player attempting to execute a play...) |
| Feb. 3, 2017 HAT MAN Men's 50 229 posts | Dave Dowell for president Making SSUSA great again!!!! Thanks again Cant wait to start season next week for us here in AZ. High of 77 today!!!!! |
| Feb. 3, 2017 stick8 1991 posts | The play as described by cuda65 is live ball in USSSA. Play on. |
| Feb. 3, 2017 Benji4 Men's 55 289 posts | Vinny I see you working to get on Dave's leg so you don't have to play at Shadow Rock in April....hahahaha |
| Feb. 3, 2017 jrhunch 113 posts | in usssa the ball would be live .i believe in baseball if you get hit with ball while on base you are out |
| Feb. 4, 2017 B.J. 1105 posts | STICK8....I haven't worked Utrip in a few years but as I remember, it was a dead ball unless the ball had passed a fielder...here is the rule read E and effect 1 Sec. 10. BASE RUNNERS MUST RETURN TO THEIR BASES: A. When any foul ball is not legally caught. B. When any illegally batted ball occurs. C. When a proper batter is out on appeal for failing to bat in order. D. When an offensive player is called out for interference. E. When an umpire or base runner is struck by a fair batted ball, before it touches a fielder or passes any fielder other than the Pitcher. F. When time out is called by the umpire. EFFECT Sec 10. A-F. 1. The ball is immediately dead. 2. Base runners may be forced to advance if the batter is credited with a hit as per “E” above, thus awarded first base, thereby forcing other runners to advance. 3. Base runners need not touch intervening bases when required to return. 4. Base runners must be allowed sufficient time to return when required. |
| Feb. 5, 2017 stick8 1991 posts | BJ, not sure what rule book that is but here is the 2017 USSSA rule on that: Sec 2. THE BATTER BECOMES A BATTER-RUNNER INSTANTLY WHEN HE HITS A FAIR BALL. EFFECT Sec. 2. The batter-runner is in jeopardy immediately: 1) if a fair batted ball strikes the umpire or base runner while off base before passing a fielder, other than the pitcher. The ball is dead immediately and the batter is entitled to first base without liability to be put out. And also: Sec 5. BASE RUNNERS ARE OUT under the following circumstances: C. When a base runner is struck by a fair batted ball on fair ground while off his base and before it touches a fielder or passes a fielder. If the situation described by cuda65 was in a USSSA game I have a live ball since the runner on third was on the bag when he was struck. Play on. That being said, I do understand SSUSA and other associations have different rules. |
| Feb. 5, 2017 jrhunch 113 posts | section 12L it is a live ball |
| Feb. 5, 2017 B.J. 1105 posts | STICK...it was a 2016 USSSA book...and the rule you posted was of a runner hit by a batted ball "while off the bag" ...cuda 65's post was of a runner on the bag...in both situations ON or OFF the bag it is a DEAD BALL unless the ball had passed a fielder...below is the 2017 USSSA RULE with page numbers.... USSSA has the same rule for a runner hit by a batted ball on the base and off the base as far as it being a live or dead ball.... READ PAGE 48 2017 rule book....E and then the EFFECT IS #1 Sec. 10. BASE RUNNERS MUST RETURN TO THEIR BASES: E. When an umpire or base runner is struck by a fair batted ball, before it touches a fielder or passes any fielder other than the Pitcher. EFFECT Sec 10. A-F. 1. The ball is immediately dead. 2. Base runners may be forced to advance if the batter is credited with a hit as per “E” above, thus awarded first base, thereby forcing other runners to advance. 3. Base runners need not touch intervening bases when required to return. ALSO ON PAGE 51/52 Sec. 3. THE BALL IS DEAD AND NOT IN PLAY: P. When a base runner is off a base and is hit with a fair-batted ball before the ball is touched by or passes through the infielders. Also page 50/51... THIS IS THE LIVE BALL RULE.. I think you are talking about... Sec. 2. THE BALL IS LIVE AND IN PLAY:...K. When a fair-batted ball strikes an umpire or base runner after touching a fielder or after passing any fielder including the pitcher/infielder. |
| Feb. 6, 2017 Garocket Men's 55 259 posts | I went to the 2017 USSSA Rule book and could not find what the ruling on ball hitting the runner on base but did see two things 1 was dead ball if it hits a runner or umpire if before it passes a fielder and live ball if it touches either after passing a fielder. Just could not find out anything on when a runner is on base that gets hit and what the effect was? |
| Feb. 7, 2017 B.J. 1105 posts | Garocket, I went thru all the live and dead ball situations also....since they just give 1 a runner hit by a batted ball before it passes a fielder... I would have to think they have the same outcome for both ... dead ball |
| Feb. 10, 2017 stick8 1991 posts | Bottom line: If cuda65's scenario was played under USSSA rules the result would be a live ball being that the runner on third was still in contact with the base. If he was off the base when the ball struck him then it would be a dead ball out since cuda65's scenario clearly indicates the 3rd baseman was playing well behind the runner on 3rd. If a batted ball passes thru a fielder before it hits a baserunner (whether on or off the base) it's a live ball. As I stated earlier SSUSA and other associations may have different rules on this. |
| Feb. 10, 2017 B.J. 1105 posts | Stick, you are correct if the batted ball passes a fielder then hits the runner on or off the base it is a live ball play on... but in this scenario as you wrote above the fielder was playing DEEP ON THE GRASS how could the ball pass by a fielder before it hit the runner??? Im sorry but this is a DEAD BALL in EVERY organization.... again I will post page numbers and rule for you to read from the 2017 USSSA rule book.... if you have something different then please post the page number you are reading from READ PAGE 48 2017 rule book....E and then the EFFECT IS #1 Sec. 10. BASE RUNNERS MUST RETURN TO THEIR BASES: E. When an umpire or BASE RUNNER is struck by a fair batted ball, before it touches a fielder or PASSES ANY FIELDER other than the Pitcher. EFFECT Sec 10. A-F. 1. THE BALL IS IMMEDIATELY DEAD 2. Base runners may be forced to advance if the batter is credited with a hit as per “E” above, thus awarded first base, thereby forcing other runners to advance. 3. Base runners need not touch intervening bases when required to return. ALSO ON PAGE 51/52 Sec. 3. THE BALL IS DEAD AND NOT IN PLAY: P. When a base runner is off a base and is hit with a fair-batted ball before the ball is touched by or passes through the infielders. Also page 50/51... THIS IS THE LIVE BALL RULE.. I think you are talking about... Sec. 2. THE BALL IS LIVE AND IN PLAY:...K. When a fair-batted ball strikes an umpire or base runner after touching a fielder or after passing any fielder including the pitcher/infielder. |
| Feb. 14, 2017 stick8 1991 posts | BJ since the 3rd baseman was deep on the grass it obviously didn't pass thru him. But the scenario states the baserunner was in contact with the bag when he was struck. I cited the rule earlier in the thread. Here it is again: RULE 8 BASERUNNING Sec 5. BASERUNNERS ARE OUT under the following cicumstances: C. When a baserunner is struck by a fair batted ball on fair ground WHILE OFF HIS BASE and before it touches a fielder or passes a fielder. EFFECT. Sec 5 B-E. It is a dead ball immediately and the involved baserunner is out It's on page 42-43 in the on-line rulebook http://web.usssa.com/usssa/usssa-general/USSSA_SPRB_17.pdf I maintain that if said base runner was struck WHILE IN CONTACT WITH THE BAG as in cuda65's scenario and before the ball passes thru or touches a fielder it is a live ball. I and other members of our crew (including some of us who work conference USSSA) have always called it this way. |
| Feb. 14, 2017 B.J. 1105 posts | Stick, then you need to contact your USSSA UIC and have him explain to you why it is a dead ball... you keep citing a rule about the runner being hit while he is OFF THE BAG... pages 42/43 that you posted have nothing about a batter being hit while on the bag.... this is the 4th time I have posted this rule below PEASE READ "E"... E. When an UMPIRE or BASE RUNNER is struck by a fair batted ball, before it touches a fielder or PASSES ANY FIELDER other than the Pitcher. the effect of this play is EFFECT Sec 10. A-F. 1. THE BALL IS IMMEDIATELY DEAD ... THIS IS ON PAGE 48 This rule is used for ANY RUNNER or UMPIRE that is hit by a batted ball BEFORE the ball passes a fielder it doesn't matter if he's on the base or off, it's A DEAD BALL if the runner is off the base he is out, dead ball and the batter is awarded 1st base... if he is on the base DEAD BALL batter is awarded 1st base...also in both cases runners advance only if forced to |
| Feb. 17, 2017 stick8 1991 posts | BJ again I believe you are incorrect. Page 49 and 50 of 2017 USSSA rule book. Rule 8. BASERUNNING Section 12. BASE RUNNERS ARE NOT OUT: L. When while in contact with the base, the base runner is hit with a fair batted ball unless the umpire rules that the ball was intentionally interfered with, or a fielder interfered with, while attempting to field a batted ball EFFECT Sec 12 L-M The ball remains live with all runners continuing to be in jeopardy. |
| Feb. 17, 2017 B.J. 1105 posts | Stick....you didn't post the entire rule that you quoted...you left out the part THAT FIRST HITS THE BASE... yes in that scenario it would be a live ball... in the above case the ball did not hit the base first I still believe it to be a dead ball ....below is the complete rule..... L. When, while in contact with the base, the base runner is hit with a fair batted that first hits a base unless the umpire rules that the ball was intentionally interfered with, or a fielder with, while attempting to field a batted ball. EFFECT Sec 12 L-M The ball remains live with all runners continuing to be in jeopardy. I found the e-mail for a UIC posted on the USSSA web site and I sent the scenario to him asking for an answer....If and when I get an answer I will post it here |
| Feb. 17, 2017 SSUSA Staff 3485 posts | OK ... We've probably had about as much abusing this equine corpse [beating a dead horse] as is necessary ... It would seem that the initial inquiry as it relates to SSUSA sanctioned events has been answered appropriately ... THREAD CLOSED |
