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Online now: 1 member: TABLE SETTER 11; 187 anonymousDiscussion: You make the call
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| March 31, 2017 stick8 1991 posts | You make the call Runners on 1st and 2nd with 2 outs. Batter singles to left field. Left fielder throws home to try and cut down the runner from 2nd. The throw is off line and strikes the offensive teams bats lined up outside their dugout. What does the umpire call? |
| March 31, 2017 lb16 Men's 60 196 posts | I call dead ball and put runners where I think they would have been if not for errant throw. Most will say dead ball and award an out. I don't believe in penalizing an out if there is no chance of getting one. |
| March 31, 2017 Sisavic 190 posts | New "You make the call" Championship Game: Runners on 1st and 2nd, two out, bottom of 7th, and home team down by one run. Routine grounder to SS who over throws 3B. Ball bounces past the 3rd baseman, hits the dugout fence and rolls behind the catcher as the runner going to 3rd trots home with the tying run. A couple of home team players are outside the tiny dugout that sits only 7 or 8 players. The ball does not hit any player and the players do not hinder the catcher, pitcher or 3rd baseman. UMPIRE RULING: Home team players are outside the dugout. All baserunners go back to the bases they had when the ball was overthrown leaving bases loaded and two outs. Next batter hit a one-hoper to the pitcher. The team in the field is the Champions. I AGREE WITH 1B16'S OPINION IN THE ABOVE POST |
| March 31, 2017 BruceinGa Men's 70 3233 posts | In my opinion I would call out, inning over. |
| March 31, 2017 B.J. 1106 posts | Stick 8's scenario could be handled a few ways....the way Stick worded it that the bats were LINED UP outside the dugout...if they were in the designated spot for bats not being used then you could have a live ball play on... if they were just lying in the foul area on the ground in front of the dugout then I would go with IB16's answer with Sisavics scenario I'd have to see the play and the travel of the over thrown ball ...but the field conditions/dug outs should have been discussed pre-game with the managers....if they don't fit all the players then they should have been told stand outside them but in the out of play area I always tell both managers before the game I'm not baby sitting you...keep your gates closed and only the on deck batter and 1 more outside the dugout if there are more (and usually are) and a ball goes "NEAR THEM" I'm killing it and punishing you by sending runners back... |
| March 31, 2017 bond_171513 Men's 55 79 posts | I'm pretty sure the rule in U-Trip/GSL for hitting the bats - or gloves or any other equipment outside the dugout area - is player closest to home is out. The same applies in reverse - if the team in the field throws a ball that hits THEIR equipment, each runner is awarded an extra base. I believe SSUSA applies the same rules. That's why you should not put your gloves on the railings in front of your dugout.... |
| March 31, 2017 stick8 1991 posts | bond_171513 is correct. Dead ball, lead runner is out. It is an SSUSA rule as well because it happened to me in Vegas a couple years ago. Bond is also correct about keeping gloves off the front of the dugout. I will add all bats and players are to be in the dugout. In u-trip it is stressed IN THE DUGOUT, one on deck only. It doesn't matter if it's a coed rec league or an nit, in the dugout!! It's a bit different when I ump the u-trip conference. Two on deck are allowed. And all players bats are in a bucket outside their dugout. If an errant throw hits the bucket, it's a live ball. |
| March 31, 2017 B.J. 1106 posts | stick...that is not at SSUSA RULE..nor is it an automatic out call on the lead runner it's a judgement call by the umpire whether or not there would have been a play on the runner... on your scenario... I have umpired many fields where the bats hang on racks outside on the dugout fence in foul territory...as far as the lead runner being out...if the throw was that far off line then there probably would not have been a play on the runner... below is the FULL rule read the EXCEPTION 8.4(10) • WHEN RUNNERS ARE ENTITLED TO ADVANCE Runners are entitled to advance without liability to be put out: D. When the ball is in play and is overthrown (beyond the boundary lines) or is blocked. EFFECT: All runners will be awarded two bases, and the award will be governed by the positions of the runners when the ball left the fielder's hands. If two runners are between the same bases, the award is based on the lead runner. EXCEPTION: 1. If the ball becomes blocked because of offensive equipment not involved in the game, the ball is ruled dead and runners are returned to the last base touched at the time of the blocked ball. If the blocked ball prevented the defense from making an out, the runner being played on is called out. |
| April 1, 2017 stick8 1991 posts | BJ, a permanently installed bat rack might be one thing(I'd have to see it) but in my scenario it was bats that were leaning on the fence outside the dugout. Perhaps I should have specified it that way, my bad. I believe rule 8.4(10) you cite would be if an errant throw strikes equipment or a player on the defensive team. The difference in the exception you cite is instead of the lead runner exclusively being out the runner who the play is being made on is out. Here's the personal play I was referring to: runners on 1st and 2nd one out. Grounder in the hole to short (I was playing short). The ball kicked up and I luckily knocked it down, pick it up and hurry a throw to third for a force that was errant. It rolled by the dugout and hit one of the offensive players standing there in the foot. Ump calls dead ball and lead runner out which is the call as I know it. As I read it if there was a runner at third in that play then what you cite means that runner being the lead runner would not be out and thus go back to third. Similar but not quite the same. |
| April 1, 2017 BruceinGa Men's 70 3233 posts | What, I get no props for having the first correct answer??? |
| April 1, 2017 B.J. 1106 posts | Stick, I thought the way you worded your original scenario that it was a trick question...yes, bats from the OFFENSE just lying up against the dugout that impedes the catcher from making a possible play I would have an out... and in the rule above it says OFFENSIVE EQUIPMENT nothing mentioned about defensive equipment ... on your play throwing the ball to 3rd, this is a TOTALLY different situation instead of the ball hitting equipment it hit a player and I assume that there was more than an on deck batter out in front of the dugout...yes I would have an out. Remember with equipment it becomes a judgement of the umpire call...if a player has no chance of making a play on a bad throw then the runner(s) should be returned to the last base touched at the time of the blocked ball. |
| April 2, 2017 stick8 1991 posts | BJ it doesn't matter if it hit a player or a bat that are in the field of play in the offensive teams dugout. It's a dead ball and in utrip the lead runner is out or as you posted the SSUSA rule. Counter to the SSUSA rule, suppose an outfielder was throwing it in the middle of the infield to the cut off man--pitcher. The throw skips by the pitcher into the offensive teams dugout area and strikes a bat leaning on the fence. It would be a dead ball out but since the throw wasn't toward a base to get a specific runner out, who would be out in this situation? |
| April 2, 2017 B.J. 1106 posts | Stick, you keep citing UTRIP rules and in many cases their rules are different...but these are senior softball questions and senior softball rules should be used...you are correct in that it doesn't matter between equipment or player....what matters is whether a play could be made on any runner...in any scenario of a ball that gets by a fielder that ends up hittng a bat/player it is considered a blocked ball... if in the judgment of the umpire it impeded a fielder from making a play then the runner being played on is called out ... if the throw was way off line and no possible play could be made then I would have a dead ball return all runners to the last base touched at the time of the blocked ball. to answer your last question on the ball that skipped by the pitcher again if no possible out could have been made i'd have a dead ball return the runners ... here is the EXCEPTION RULE from the SENIOR S.B. RULE BOOK PG 49 this fully explains when you can get an out or when you return the runners EXCEPTION: 1. If the ball becomes blocked because of offensive equipment not involved in the game, the ball is ruled dead and runners are returned to the last base touched at the time of the blocked ball. If the blocked ball prevented the defense from making an out, the runner being played on is called out. |
