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Discussion: Bad experience for a Class Tournament - Worlds

Posted Discussion
Sept. 24, 2017
BruceAZ
Men's 60
153 posts
Bad experience for a Class Tournament - Worlds
I donít post a lot and I donít complain but I have to this time. We played a winners bracket game in 55AAA at Lorenzi park on Sat night. We were ahead in the open inning, other team was home and batting, we had 2 outs and they had the winning run on 1st base. The batter hits the LC gap, I went out for the cutoff, the guy from 1st was trying to score. I couldnít pick the throw clean and it bounced by me, I turned around and the runner was so excited to score the winning run that he slid head first over the scoring line. The umpire in his wisdom had decided the game was over before it was actually over and turned his back to the play before the runner scored and walked to the fence so he didnít see the slide and couldnít call him out. That should have been the 3rd out and we should have played an extra inning. We asked for the TD but the umpire said he wouldnít call him and the game was over. By the time we got the TD to the field, the umpire and the entire other team had left the field and there was nothing the TD could do. We pay $745 for this Tournament and we get umpires like this.
Bruce
Sept. 25, 2017
marcster13
94 posts
What's the big deal? There wasn't a play and he was excited. No harm no foul. Let it go sir.
Sept. 25, 2017
mitch1414
12 posts
The rules are the rules and if that was the case, then the runner should have been called out. But, I agree with marcaster, it is a technicality and you lost the game fair and square. It had no bearing on the actual play. Just move on and let it go.....
Sept. 25, 2017
Crusher23
Men's 55
47 posts
Just out of curiosity, what is the rule number that states that one cannot dive over the scoring line?
Sept. 25, 2017
HAT MAN
Men's 40
209 posts
8.6 states sliding is only allowed to avoid collision at 1st or home.

What i see is an out. Saying they lost the game fair and square isn't true. A rule was violated that would result in an out and not called. How is that fair now maybe it could be square but certainly not fair.

Many of us have different opinions when it comes to rules. Some feel if its printed it should be enforced some feel some are major rules and some are minor.
I think in a world tourney the blue needs to be at the their A game.

If he ran through the box or touched home plate would you think he should be out? If he missed 3rd would he be out?

I for one would be livid if the other team was not called out for sliding home when i have experienced otherwise.
Sept. 25, 2017
marcster13
94 posts
I get it's a rule but there was not even a play at the plate. I would not even worry about it if he had touched home plate for the winning score with no play there. The team lost by their own accord. Getting upset over a miniscule incident with no play is not worth the energy. Go back as a team and work on the real reasons for the loss. Just my opinion.
Sept. 25, 2017
HAT MAN
Men's 40
209 posts
not me man sorry. My team has experienced being called out of the box stepping in batters box or plate and sliding home (for fun mind you)

These rules have no business in the rule book if they only get enforced sometimes.

I respect your view but want to ask this. If the runner was called out for sliding and you were the other team would you go tell the blue hey dont call it we lost on our own accord. or would you play another inning?
Sept. 25, 2017
bond_171513
Men's 55
64 posts
The home plate umpire should have been looking at nothing else but the runner coming home to ensure he crossed legally - that is part of our sport. Right or wrong, fair & square, like it or hate it makes no difference here. We cannot have rules that are only applied when it is convenient. If that had been the 5th run in the second inning, I guarantee you it would have been overturned.

What would be your answer if the winning run was on third with 1-out and a fly ball was caught at the fence and the runner left early and scored the "winning" run and the celebration ensues and the umpires didn't allow an appeal? There was no play there either. We should not be picking and choosing when it is ok and not ok to enforce our rules. Telling teams that lose to "Go back as a team and work on the real reasons for the loss" is not an appropriate answer in my opinion.
Sept. 25, 2017
mitch1414
12 posts
Well, a true sportsman wants to win the right way. Complaining about a call that had absolutely no bearing on the outcome is just a competitive person wanting to win. I get it......but I can totally live with that no call more than a missed judgement call that is clearly wrong and had an impact on the result. The rules are the rules and the runner should have been called out, but calls are missed all the time, and this is another example of that.....
Sept. 25, 2017
BCA80
12 posts
The day I want this to be an out is the day I quit playing softball. Winning will have become too important. If a play was being made on him, different story. But if the ball is on the ground somewhere as he is crossing the line, that's not an out I am begging for.
Sept. 25, 2017
just a player
Men's 60
6 posts
An interesting argument. I see both sides but would agree that if I had to argue for that out when there was no play then I am out there for the wrong reasons. You won't find a more competitive or intense player than me but if I am beat, I am beat. Question - did you score 5 runs every inning or did you leave runs out there? Very rarely does one play beat you. The play you describe just happens to be the last play. I would bet that the opportunities were there. Your argument sounds more like frustration, which I also understand.
Sept. 25, 2017
Bill B
6 posts
In this situation the umpire was unprofessional. No matter what, the game is not over until the umpire calls the final batter/ Base runner out or the winning run scores.
I want to ask ALL you softball players out there a question. I have seen this happen. I've been on both sides of this, as a player and an umpire.

Question,
Bases loaded, tie score, home team up at bat 2 outs. Batter hits a base hit, out fielder tries to throw out the runner from third at the plate, run scores, but runner on second in the excitement NEVER advanced to third base. Whats the call?

For those of you that do not know. There is NO call until it is appealed. IF, you don't make and appeal and the umpire is aware of the play and you walk off the field the umpire is not going to call the runner out. If the umpire turns his back on the play because the so-called winning run scored, he is being lazy and assumed everything is correct. Now tell me, would you and your teammates be upset/mad at the umpire if he did not pay attention?


As an umpire I have called base runners OUT for not advancing. As a player I have appealed plays just like that. WON the appeal. Game continued. We ended up winning the game in the next inning.

To ALL umpires. PLEASE do not turn you back on ANY play until TIMEOUT is called, the final out is made OR, YOU call the winning run SAFE.

The catcher in any inning needs to make the umpire aware that in that situation your team is going to make sure all runners advance. Yes if there is no outs and two runners do not advance it is a waste of time to appeal.

Sept. 26, 2017
DCPete
379 posts
The irony here is that everyone gets excited & expects an Out to be called whenever a runner touches the wrong plate so why is there a difference with this play?
Sept. 26, 2017
doker
Men's 60
185 posts
sorry bill b but in your last scenario the run would score anyway...due to the fact the run scored before the last out was made....its called a timing play....the appeal occured after the run scored...so it counts
Sept. 26, 2017
doker
Men's 60
185 posts
Also the situation we are discussing shud have been an out...as a rule is a rule and this one is for safety even if it makes no sense in this scenario...just my two cents!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sept. 26, 2017
gott2play
Men's 60
208 posts
Gentlemen,

Why the differing opinions? It's pretty clear cut here...if the rules say no diving/sliding across home plate, then it's an out. It's no different than if the runner steps on the actual home plate, it's an out.

Some have said they wouldn't want to win a game that way...yes you would. At the World Masters we all would. You might feel bad about it, but you'd take the win.

Just sayin'

Tony Baltazar #35
Summy's Demolition
Sept. 26, 2017
Dbax
Men's 60
1855 posts
Well said Tony.
Sept. 26, 2017
mitch1414
12 posts
Everyone needs to understand that opinions will differ. So, there is no right or wrong opinion.....only right or wrong call. Obviously the play was not called correctly and now everyone voices their opinion about it. Just because it is a rule, doesn't make it right. Rules get changed all the time. So, obviously, some people don't care for this one, and some people do. We don't all have to agree.....that is why this message board gets a workout.
Sept. 26, 2017
STL0
Men's 55
195 posts
We had this happen a few years back in Vegas and it almost cost us winning the tournament. We had a player that slid across the line for no apparent reason as there was not even a throw home. The home plate umpire saw it and called it. I was on deck and was aware of the rule but wasn't sure they would call it. The home plate umpire conferred with the other umpire after the play and called our runner out, which was the correct call. We were upset but didn't complain because IT'S THE RULE.

The bottom line is the umpire has to watch the person score or they're not doing their job. The game should have continued and that's not a reflection on the team appealing the play if they choose to appeal it.
Sept. 26, 2017
BruceAZ
Men's 60
153 posts
Marcster, it is a big deal, should we play by some of the rules only when a play is being made? That play was the outcome of the game. There's a huge difference in remaining in the winners bracket and being knocked down to the losers bracket, that's the big deal. Congrats on winning the division.
Sept. 26, 2017
coop3636
401 posts
The main thing here is to have TWO umpires on all games in the BIGGEST tournament of the year.
There were MANY calls that were wrong because there was only one umpire.(in our games and many others)
In this case, at least one umpire would have seen the runner slide across the plate
Maybe in the RR games, one umpire is ok, but NEVER in brackets games.
Sat games are just as important as Sunday games (where we have 2 umps)
I asked the director why and his answer was "its a financial decision"
My answer to that was "Don't make so much money, put it back into the game"
I watched the play at home where he slid in, he should have been called out, PERIOD.
IMO, I think that's a crazy rule, if you slide, so what, you are not sliding into anybody so why make it illegal? Make the game fun again.
just my 2 cents worth.
Brett Cooper
Sept. 26, 2017
Bill B
6 posts
Doker,
Sorry but you are wrong. If the run scores and then you appeal the runner NOT advancing to the next base and there were two outs, the RUN DOES NOT COUNT.
Reason:
It becomes a force play. Third out is made run does not count. End of story. My point in this is NOT to argue with ANYBODY but to make all umpires accountable. Hopefully they won't assume players do everything correctly and turn their back on plays. There are some real good umpires out there. It's the BAD ones that make it hard for the Good ones.
To ALL softball players. How many times have you played in BIG Tournaments and in one game and umpire makes a call whether it's right or wrong. But in the next game, exact same play, different umpire and he/she interprets the Play/Rule differently.
Example: Pitched Ball hits the BLACK around the plate. Umpire 1 calls it a STRIKE. Umpire 1 says the Black IS part of the plate. Umpire 2 says it is a BALL. The BLACK is NOT part of the plate. The question isn't who's right and who's wrong. The question is, WHY aren't ALL umpires on the same page?
As for the original question. Batter slides into home, HE IS OUT. IT's A RULE.

Please do not say Rules are made to be broken.
Sept. 26, 2017
mad dog
Men's 65
4174 posts
i have won games by rule watching......if he slid he is out don't care....
DOKER
Sept. 26, 2017
Bill B
6 posts
Does it say anywhere in the rule book that an umpire has the right to pick and choose which rules he/she is going to call/enforce?
Sept. 26, 2017
Bill B
6 posts
Doker,
I agree
Sept. 26, 2017
mad dog
Men's 65
4174 posts
crap hit the wrong button....
DOKER on that second one there would be an out at third if appealed properly and since it would be just like a force out and run "would not" count unlike the timing play your trying to use for your answer....same as a runner not going to first on the base hit that supposedly brings in the winning run......
Sept. 27, 2017
curty
Men's 60
178 posts
If game was protested immediately, no one should have left the playing area. Discussion ensues, TD rules. If out is up held, as it should be, and team has left, forfeit. When a properly timed protest is registered, every thing stops. of course, an Umpire should have seen & ruled appropriately to begin with.
Sept. 27, 2017
HAT MAN
Men's 40
209 posts
I think the title should say bad ending for my team. I would hope Worlds wasn't a bad experience.

Rules are rules if you want them changed come to the convention and voice. Not sure how this is titled as a safety rule but middle is open with hot bats. Either way I will abide by them.

I think more of the frustrations, at least for me, are when rules are overlooked then enforced. Ex at BLD you have a painted box that doesn't account for the plate being a strike. Playing all year with a lax batters box then enforcing it at the biggest stage is rough. Over 100 players called out last year just in 40s major. Not me though you learn to adjust.

Point is it sucks that you get knocked out on a failed rule enforcement just as it sucks when box rules sliding etc are also enforced and hurts the team.

Congrats to those that have played and good luck to those in the next 2 weeks.
Sept. 27, 2017
surf88
Men's 65
1000 posts
In my first SSUSA Worlds held in Phoenix (99'), I was on 2nd base and a ball was hit to shallow RC. I beat it to and around 3rd heading for home. I slid across the base line and of course was immediately called out to my shock and embarrassment. I did not know the senior rule but I never did that again.

In my opinion, we play to win and we play to obey all the rules. The umpire gave a sad display of his performance and the runner should have been called out at the plate. Learn the rule the hard way like I had to.
Sept. 28, 2017
craig11909
2 posts
Hate to add fuel to the fire, but the team that had the guy fall/slide across the line ended up winning the tournament. My take, the team that lost intentionally walked the winning run to first,,,,,, bad karma. And we all know the ump for that game screwed up many other games with bad or fumbling calls.
Sept. 30, 2017
bkb555
244 posts
runner is OUT...no different than touching home plate instead of crossing line....if that was OUR team, we would be livid that OUR guy did something that "stupid" because it has happened any times with inexperienced senior players...sliding into first, not advancing to next base on 5th run scoring, touching home plate, being a courtesy runner when you are supposed to bat in 2 spots, sliding into home, running 2x in an inning as courtesy runner.......they all happened to our teams over the years and they are OUTS....runner should have been called out no question
Sept. 30, 2017
OmahaChuck
Men's 60
39 posts
Wouldn't it have been awesome if the runner, or manager of the team of the 'slider', would have taken a moment during the ensuing argument and said:

"Blue, I (or the runner) really should have been called out. Let's go to extra innings."

What a great opportunity to add integrity, sportsmanship, and create a story of competition that could be used as a source to teach honesty. Sadly, that opportunistic door wasn't opened.

If what Craig says is true and the team ended up winning the championship; well, that's something they have to deal with as individuals and as a team.

I would feel as if my ring was tainted in some way knowing a blatant rule violation directly lead to advancing in the winner's bracket. Some could sleep well at night but some would not.

Interesting conversation in this thread...
Sept. 30, 2017
softball4b
Men's 65
1112 posts
As competitive as I am I empathize with BruceAZ.

In reality, umpire did not see it, he can't call it. Does not matter if the runner broke the rule per Bruce,"he didnít see the slide and couldnít call him out."

Not going to debate could have would have should have, we all are chasing the ring. TD and Chief Umpire will take care of the umpire discipline and they do. It will be handled out of the public eye as all personnel issues should be. I know for a fact a certain number of umpires each year are not asked to return to World Tournaments until they have demonstrated a competency level consistent with the competition level.

Errors happen on the field as players and staff, most always with negative implications. Not knowing anyone involved I can only believe the umpire feels badly about their error in judgment and how if affected the game.
Oct. 2, 2017
17Black
Men's 55
396 posts
Similar (kind of) situation happened to us in a Positive way at the Vegas Winter Worlds before everything switched several years ago.

We were winning our game by ONE going into bottom of 7th inning and we were the visitors.

Team from New Mexico up to bat, gets bases loaded with no outs.

They need one to tie and two to win.

1st batter hits grand slam-----------but they were out of home runs (batter out)one out

2nd batter hits ground ball in hole to shortstop-----no way to turn double play but shortstop throws home. Runner from 3rd would have been safe in my opinion, (OK he would have beat the throw) but he not only slid into home-plate, he slid into the wrong home plate, and took out the catcher (2 outs) UMP made the right call. (If memory serves me correct the runner got ejected from game too, this was in 2009?)

3rd batter hits fly ball---------3 outs, we stay undefeated in winners bracket and move on.
Oct. 2, 2017
gott2play
Men's 60
208 posts
Mike (softball4b),

(As you are want to say) Dadgummit! The umpire did not see it and therefore cant make the call? Its the friggin' winning run Dadgummit!...his ONLY job at this point is to watch and make sure the runner doesn't step on home plate, or in this case, slide across the line. Rules are rules and should be enforced.

The team that lost gets penalized because of umpire incompetence or lack of caring. No need for political correctness here, the umpire blew it. Disciplinary actions after the fact don't help the team penalized.

Just my take...and apologies for using your word.

Tony Baltazar
Demolition - 60 Major Plus
Oct. 2, 2017
Q19
Men's 60
73 posts
I like Mike's comment.

Maybe the umpire could've approached the winning coach and asked him point blank, "Did your runner slide across the line?" Only two possible answers. Somebody has to live with the lie. If he says YES, then we have a tie game and 'BruceAZ' will be happy and will get another shot at winning the game.

Integrity and sportsmanship is what SENIOR SOFTBALL is all about!, right?


J. "Q"uenga
Cal Energy - 55 Major
KM Sportz - 50 Major (2017 National Champions)
Bud Light Guam - 40 AAA ('15,'16 Bronze Medalists)
2013 World Champions - East Bay Oldies (50 Major)
2011 TOC - East Bay Oldies (50 Major Plus)

I LOVE THIS GAME!, despite some bad calls.
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