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Discussion: Any results yet for the 50 major?

Posted Discussion
Oct. 1, 2017
Bballer3
21 posts
Any results yet for the 50 major?
Does anybody have any results from the 50 major?
Oct. 1, 2017
Bruster55
Men's 55
104 posts
WestCoast Water 3rd ,Wood Law & Nor Cal Thunderstruck was playing for championship.
I want to give everyone at Senior Softball a job well done.The umpires in my opinion did a fantastic job throughout this weekend also.
Jeff Armbruster
AZ Old School 50 M
Oct. 1, 2017
Longhorns
51 posts
Thunderstruck went undefeated. Great job thunderstruck.
Oct. 1, 2017
John Basilone
1 posts
Elmwood Sports from RI lost to Thunderstruck in the finals!!
Oct. 2, 2017
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1221 posts
7 major plus 55 and two Major plus 40s will dominate the major division 50s Well done!
Oct. 2, 2017
Q19
Men's 60
74 posts
Hey Rich!,

Care to elaborate on what you just wrote? So what are you trying to say?

"Q"
Grammar Nut
Oct. 3, 2017
michael697
22 posts
You got that right Richie...thunderstruck got rerated twice in 4 months and used every excuse to do so. then show up with major plus players (7) and 40 (2) players...just shows even at this age some players will do anything to cheat and come up with bullshit excuses....what's worst is the directors allowing this to happen just shows they have no credibility what so ever, and I guess it's true it's all about who you know.
Oct. 3, 2017
Mr. Nick
Men's 55
41 posts
Richie and Michael697, I could not have said it better. Very disgusted on how Thunderstruck got re-rated right before the Nor Cal Championship and then before the Worlds. There is no acceptable explanation. With only one major plus player on our roster we made it to Sunday (50s Major) and we went home with our heads up. Richie, congrats on your team performance this last weekend.
Oct. 3, 2017
monam33
17 posts
As a player on Elmwood Sports out of Rhode Island, I would certainly hope this isn't true. We played our asses off and lost to the better team, but, if they weren't legit it is a big issue!
Oct. 3, 2017
Mr. Nick
Men's 55
41 posts
monam33, it is true. Right before the Nor Cal Championship, Thunderstruck got re-rated from 50 Major Plus to 50 Major. At the end of June, our team played them at the Nor Cal Championship. Thunderstruck won this tournament and we took second. They were then re-rated to 50 Major Plus. They then played one tournament (August) as a 50 Major Plus team. On 8/30/17, they were re-rated back down to 50 Major.
Oct. 3, 2017
mck71
217 posts
Guys, I wasn't there but the rules based on Rating Index are pretty clear, 55M+ = 50M (R/I = 8) so you could technically field a team with all 55M+ guys and play 50M. I believe this was done a few years back so they have now changed the rules (I believe) that you need to create a new team and pay the fee for that team (i.e. 2 separate teams but both with basically the same roster), 1 is a 55M+ team, the other would be classified as a 50M team but both would have to play in qualifying tourneys to enter in Vegas. Now IF that team had 1 40M+ player, based on what I understand that is NOT allowed, R/I of 10 vs 8 for 50M, can't go down 2. Hope this helps.
Oct. 3, 2017
SKings24
50 posts
I know the guys well from Thunderstruck. One plays 55 Major Plus with Sommerville. A few others were Major Plus possibly from MTC. One from a 40 Major Plus roster that is eligible to play 50 this year. Rating index means nothing to me its all about experience and some of those players have great bat control for their age and can teach some of us that. They have the experience and past history that is being overlooked to teams that are playing by the rules which are not the same for everyone. Regardless of age or possible injuries there are loop holes and teams have exploited them to their advantage.
Oct. 3, 2017
monam33
17 posts
This is getting interesting.....
Would love more input from anyone that knows more, not that I think we have any recourse.

Sucks if they weren't legal.

We fly cross country to have this happen?
Oct. 3, 2017
monam33
17 posts
We were also told West Coast Water was illegal.....
Oct. 3, 2017
michael697
22 posts
Monam33....it's 100% true I guarantee it.
Oct. 3, 2017
Kyphogt
Men's 50
26 posts
I also played for Elmwood Sports this past weekend. I certainly hope that isn't true as well. thunderstruck was a great team and they seemed to be a solid group of men. I can assure you Elmwood Sports brought the team that was together all spring/summer long. There were no last minute additions or maneuvers..just a bunch a friends who love playing the game.
Oct. 3, 2017
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1221 posts
what I know for sure, is 6 guys I played in 55s last year won it with MTC and 2 guys were on a 40 team that got bumped to 40 major plus and 1 guy got a medical exempt from 50 major plus. so I understand that 6 guys makes you a returning team and that won 55s last year major plus. I thought the Tim Millete rule was in and no 55 major plus team could drop into the 50 major bracket??
Oct. 3, 2017
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1221 posts
Guess Tim Millete got even for the Cornerstone Championship! LOL Timmy was on Thunderstruck
Oct. 3, 2017
Bman63
7 posts
I understand that Thunderstruck got bumped to Major Plus after winning NorCal Championships in Major division (end of June). They then played in (1) Major Plus tourney (Western Champ. At end of July) and then get bumped beck to Major on August 30 (1 month before Worlds.)

My understanding is that ratings appeals can only be heard in December and June. However SSUSA reserves right to make changes at any time. Secondly, my understanding is teams must play in minimum of 3 tournies before you can be re-rated to a different classification. They played(1) tourney and were re-rated?

SSUSA, can you please give your input and clarify this situation.
Oct. 3, 2017
Gonedeep43
69 posts
Interesting how none of the directors are chiming in?
Oct. 3, 2017
SKings24
50 posts
Dave i know its a tough job as I am a director and have to answer why teams are legal or possibly illegal to pass this off to someone else is unacceptable. Somebody has to take owner ship and to keep pushing it off makes me think that what everyone is bringing up is valid and no one wants to admit the wrong doing. I sent an email earlier with facts that I have. Without being able to see the rosters and make comparisons is tough for managers or players to speak to. All we can see is who is on the field. Did Thunderstruck play their full roster at Nationals compared to the State Championship they won? I can say NO as one player was in Lincoln playing int he 55's while Thunderstruck was at Maidu. That player is a big part of their success so I wonder who else they were missing???
Oct. 3, 2017
DaveDowell
Men's 65
2840 posts
Gonedeep43 ... None of the Directors should/will be "chiming in" on this ... Our duties as Directors are to administer the tournament on site with the rosters and schedules we've been provided ... Eligibility matters are vested solely with the Home Office eligibility specialists ... Any inquiries should be directed to them at info@seniorsoftball.com ...
Oct. 3, 2017
monam33
17 posts
Hmmmmm......
This is discouraging.
Oct. 3, 2017
Bballer3
21 posts
So what will be the outcome?..... Lots of "fishy" moves here that don't add up. How can a 40M+ player be eligible for the 50M if in fact he did play? Didnt they make a rule when a 55M+ team won the 50M a few years ago? Question: Can a 55M team play in the 50AAA division next year in Vegas? How does a team get re-rated after playing one tournament when others can't because of the "rules" that are pretty clear?
Oct. 4, 2017
Webbie25
Men's 65
2273 posts
Guys, I see you all are new on this board. Those of us that have been here for a long time learned this is ONLY a forum for airing things out. It is not an official complaint site. Dave comes on as a courtesy, but NOTHING gets done officially without a complaint in writing to the office in Sacramento. All the posting in the world will not get anything done here.
Oct. 4, 2017
Benji4
228 posts
Thank you Webbie for educating some.

But we all know it's far easier to be anonymous and bitch and complain on this message board then it is to send your complaint with your REAL NAME in writing to the Home office. Dave has said that a hundred times.

If these people feel they were wronged then they should do as you/Dave have stated...............

But we know they won't......................
Oct. 4, 2017
monam33
17 posts
I'll be honest. We had no clue about any of this, other than someone making claims behind the backstop before we played. We ignored it...never thinking a team would be illegal.

We never bitched or complained. We came to play ball.
Oct. 4, 2017
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1221 posts
Benji, webbie I don't hide behind keyboard.. I know everyone on that team and they know me.. I am Rich Navarro.. I only stated the facts that I know. I just think it's wrong to have Major plus players dropping one age group and division to chase a ring.. hell, it's the major division so you truly are playing for 12th place.. the 50 major plus is the top 12!
Oct. 4, 2017
SKings24
50 posts
I'm not hiding either, I am Brian Gregoire and I did send an email to the information provided. No reply as of yet
Oct. 4, 2017
r4pitch
78 posts
monam33 The east coast teams always fighting a uphill battle..Hopefully the rock ball will go away and no major or major + will play at dreams ..Well run torney only problem was the ump in winners final of major + started calling out of box.Only game all weekend any ump did that..With all that happened cant really complain... Great time ..Reid Miller Pitcher team usa
Oct. 4, 2017
Bman63
7 posts
Nor am I hiding behind my keyboard. My name is Brian LaSalle and live in Massachusetts. I know about 6 or 7 of the guys on Elmwood. By the way.... great job guys!

After reading the post I did some simple research on the tournament page and saw what tournaments Thunderstruck played in and saw the teams most resent ratings change. In all it took me about 10 minutes to sort thru the info.

They were Major in June got bumped to Major Plus in June/July. Played in (1) Major Plus tourney in July, they must have appealed in July/August and were re-rated back to Major on August 30.

I am in no way speaking for or on behalf of Elmwood.

I am speaking on behalf of myself. I believe that my question is fair and see no reason it can't be answered "in a public forum" as opposed to a "private email or letter". My question is: I don't understand how they can be re-rated after playing in only (1) Major Plus tournament. A very similar situation happened to my team in 2015 and the timing was almost exact as this situation. I filed an appeal and was told we had to wait, we did not play enough tournies at the "new" classification to warrant a re-rating. I was told we had to wait until the following June to be considered. The Thunderstruck re-rating seems to be contrary to the ratings appeal process posted on this website.

Again, just curious as to how this was allowed? SSUSA?
Oct. 4, 2017
Webbie25
Men's 65
2273 posts
Hey Rich-I have met you and know who you are. I was not accusing anyone, just stating the fact that nothing gets done here.
Oct. 4, 2017
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1221 posts
I talk to you on the phone when you where with the infamous Einstein! LOL I didn't mean you were calling me out, I was just letting anyone know I don't need to hide.. Everyone On Thunderstruck will be playing against me in North Cal Senior softball association or with me.. I just for the record IMO think that 55 major plus players should carry the same rating to 50 major plus.. the best 55s are on the 50 plus level! out of respect of what these athletes can do, is why I think it's unfair for them to be able to bounce down to 50 major level. They were a loaded team for 50 major. 6 55 major plus champs, one 50 major champ and two for major plus players.. seems like a bit much for the 50 major division IMO..
Oct. 4, 2017
NYTX
Men's 60
41 posts
All of this is unfortunate to hear - one idea I had recently is to restrict all players to only play on 1 team (and 1 age bracket) for the Nationals. In other words, don't allow guys to play one weekend for a 50 team and the next weekend for a 55 team. God Bless the guys who are physically able to do so, but it creates this concept of "pickup teams" when you see the same guy playing for 2 or 3 different teams. We have it as well in Texas where I play. I wonder if it would make more sense to restrict all players to commit to one team and not jump around. I'm referring only to the big tournaments, such as Vegas.
Oct. 4, 2017
monam33
17 posts
Maybe we should test the process......anyone care to outline the appeal process?
Oct. 4, 2017
SSUSA Staff
2897 posts
monam33 ... It's a simple procedural process ...

• Submit identifiable, as to you and your team, written correspondence by email (to info@seniorsoftball.com) or snail-mail to the SSUSA Home Office (at 9823 Old Winery Place, Suite 12, Sacramento, CA 95827-1720) describing why you believe there was an irregularity that was detrimental to your team for the 2017 World Masters Championships ...

• If your concerns are about specific player(s) eligibility for an opponent, try to identify the player(s), if you can, who you believe were or should have been ineligible to participate ... If you are unable to attach player names to individual opponent players, that's no problem ... It seems you may be relying on others' here making representations which may, or may not, be worthy of investigation ...

• If you believe that an opponent was improperly rated to participate in your division, please identify the team and ask SSUSA to explain their thinking and process regarding the team(s) ... Team rating are, by definition, somewhat subjective ... It's fair for you to inquire about any subjective aspects SSUSA may have employed ...

You are not locked into any formalized "appeal" format ... You should, of course, do what is comfortable for you and what you believe is comprehensive enough to allow a thorough evaluation by SSUSA ...

Oct. 4, 2017
Benji4
228 posts
POSTED BY TIM MILLETTE on another message board.

Maybe this helps maybe not....

Our team..

Pitcher Rev 57 years old 50 major plus player last year for summersville and 55 major plus player with MTC he won two worlds.

Catcher myself, 58 years old, with a knee that didn't allow me to do anything more then jog all weekend..won 55 plus worlds with MTC last year

DH Scott Becker 56 years old, back disk injuries that held him out half of the season..won 55 Plus worlds with MTC last year

1B James, 59 years old and new to senior ball..I am told he had not played tourneys in 17 years..don't know it that's true. He has a separated shoulder and cannot throw over hand.

2B, charlie Penia 59 years old, won 55 Plus worlds last year with MTC

3B, Dave Matusich 63 years old, won 55 Plus last year with MTC as a substitute part time player..won 60 plus worlds this year with MTC as a starter.

SS, Billy, 50 years old and played this year with Classic Glass in 50 majors until he was cut/quit

Middle infielder/5 man, Ronnie Gonzalez, 52 years old, played with Stanislaw Sluggers ssusa AAA team last year.

Left field..George, 59 years old, won 55 plus worlds last year with MTC

Center fielder..Elbert Certeza..49 years old but eligible because he has a late in the year Birthday and will be turning 50 in 2017..El won 50 Major worlds last year with layercake out of norcal.

Right field, Rick Garza? 50 years old, Played 40 majors last year

Utility, Mark Emerson, 60 years old, playedartime with Nazareino in 50 Plus last year, didn't make the team in 2017 when they merged with Arizona elite and moved to 55 age group. Mark was given a medical re evaluation because he torn his rotator, had doctors letter and X-rays sent to Sacramento..Mark is incapable of raising his glove hand above his chest...

Utility...Zaf...played AAA last year.

So that's our team..

Six guys that played with MTC 55 last year and won worlds that average 58.6 years old.

One utility player that is injured and 60,

another utility that is 53 and played AAA

A 52 middle infielder that played AAA

And four very good 50 year olds.

I honestly do not know if our team is legally a 50 major team or not...I say that because there are too many variables (do what ssusa wants openings) in the ssusa rule book to really know.....what I do know is...
Oct. 4, 2017
SKings24
50 posts
So 60% of the roster is Major Plus, this is like playing in the USSSA E program with players who at one time played upper ball, said roster would not be approved or allowed and could be protested. Too many Grey Area in SSUSA. One example is Bryson Baker plays Conference ball and would be eligible to play Major based on SSUSA rules. This is why there must be player rankings and no loopholes. I play where I belong and would not use excuses of injury. If I am injured I would sit out and heal or quit.
Oct. 4, 2017
monam33
17 posts
Thank you all for opening our eyes to this. Keep the info coming, although that post from Benji4 paints a picture better than Picasso....
Oct. 4, 2017
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1221 posts
benji, that list is correct...Tim might of fluffed it with all these old farts spin, but yes Becker has a back issue and still hits it 400 feet. Billy is a major plus player even if he has no ranking!
Oct. 4, 2017
SKings24
50 posts
Billy did play Major Plus last year in the 40's so that carries over. Someone text me from Thunderstruck stating that K&M, LCW and Bad Seed are illegal as well. Seems like this person is worried, I know Bad Seed was not illegal by any means if anything we may have had 2 Major Plus players which fits the bill. Can't speak on behalf of the others. But if Bad Seed was illegal by his accusation then I feel really bad we didn't make it to the Ship
Oct. 4, 2017
SSUSA Staff
2897 posts
Not knowing anything officially about the specific former 40-Major+ player aging up and carrying his Major+ rating with him, he would absolutely be eligible for a 50-Major team as one of their three allowable "out of rating" players ... Don't see an issue here as one individual player ... The total team count hasn't been exceeded yet ...
Oct. 5, 2017
Hillbilly9
2 posts
Good to see the CA teams did well, congrats SSUSA you got what you wanted....
Oct. 5, 2017
TAT22
61 posts
This certainly opens another giant door for teams that want to play 50 Major just load your team up with 55 Major Plus players.

My other question is about, Center fielder..Elbert Certeza..49 years old but eligible because he has a late in the year Birthday and will be turning 50 in 2017..El won 50 Major worlds last year with layercake out of norcal.

How could he play 50 Major worlds in 2016 when he was 48 turning 49!!!
Oct. 5, 2017
monam33
17 posts
Sad display of west coast sportsmanship.....from grown men to boot.
I love the comment from TAT22. Great pick up if you can get away with it!

It would have been something to see "Little Rhody" take out the hired guns.
Oct. 5, 2017
Bman63
7 posts
Tim Millette, on the other "big boy" message board, also said the following:

"our roster was not changed from the beginning of the year"

SSUSA Staff you were kind enough to respond as to specific players and rankings. Thank you!

SSUSA Staff, can you now respond to my original question as to how they were able to appeal and be re-rated after only playing (1) Major Plus tourney? Apparently, there was no change to their roster. They didn't drop to below 6 players. On the surface, there seems to be a double standard unless you can explain otherwise. Please be transparent!

Again, I think this is a fair question!
Oct. 5, 2017
michael697
22 posts
I said it before and I'll say it again the directors have (no)credibility what so ever..they know it's wrong, people in nor cal know it's wrong,players on this wedsite know it's wrong. To sit there and use age and injuries as your excuse is a joke and one lame answer.

Everyone has injuries but know ones running to the doctor to get a note!! What is this grade school you need a note from your doctor to back up you boo-boo...that's freaking funny..everyone has the injuries/aches/pains I have plenty but I don't need a doctors note..if I can't play, then I can't play I'll wait till next year....
Oct. 5, 2017
SSUSA Staff
2897 posts
Elbert Certeza was a member of the 2016 Layer Cake Wines/Dudley/Elite Sports USA (Men's 40-Major) team that won that division in Las Vegas last year, resulting in his experience rating history being raised to Major+ when he aged up to 50's ... He did not play in the 50+ Division at any time during the 2016 Season for anyone, including the Layer Cake Wines/Crush 50's (Men's 50-Major) team ...
Oct. 5, 2017
SSUSA Staff
2897 posts
Hillbilly9 ... A bit of cursory research from the event tournament page would have been helpful to you ... Here are the winners thus far ... California has not had winners disproportionate to their percentage of total teams entered this year ... Winners range from the East Coast to Hawaii and most geographic regions in between ...

SESSION #1
¤ Men’s 55 Major Plus • Cornerstone (OR)
¤ Men’s 55 Major • RBC/Pro-Grass (FL)
¤ Men’s 55 AAA • TMS Michigan
¤ Men’s 55 AA • Lights Out 55 (CA)

¤ Men’s 60 Major Plus • MTC/Dudley (CA)
¤ Men’s 60 Major • Omega IT Services (MD)
¤ Men’s 60 AAA • Milwaukee Merchants (WI)
¤ Men’s 60 AA • Oshkosh Ambassadors 60 (WI)

SESSION #2
¤ Men’s 65 Major Plus • Timberworks/Adidas (CA)
¤ Men’s 65 Major • New Jersey Hitmen
¤ Men’s 65 AAA • Oregon Crabs
¤ Men’s 65 AA • Fresh Poke 65s (HI)

¤ Men’s 70 Major Plus • Venom (FL)
¤ Men’s 70 Major • SoCal Gusto (CA)
¤ Men’s 70 AAA • Game On (CA)
¤ Men’s 70 AA • Sacramento Buds (CA)

¤ Men’s 75 Major Plus • San Francisco Seals (CA)
¤ Men’s 75 Major • General Equipment (OR)
¤ Men’s 75 AAA • Las Vegas Coyotes (NV)

¤ Men’s 80 Major • Florida Investment Properties
¤ Men’s 80 AAA • Scrap Iron Gray Berets (CO)

¤ Men’s 85 Major • Center For Sight (FL)

SESSION #3
¤ Men’s 50 Major Plus • J.K. Inc/Miken 50 (CA)
¤ Men’s 50 Major • NorCal Thunderstruck (CA)
¤ Men’s 50 AAA • Roadhouse Blues/BP & Associates (PA)
¤ Men’s 50 AA • Fifty GZ (TX)

Oct. 5, 2017
Lee Lee
12 posts
Ok Elbert couldn't have played in 50's in 2016 because he wasn't 50. Also based on your player index rating chart once again your player rating index chart 40 Major and 40 Major Plus carry the same index rating as a 50 Major Plus. So is SSUSA saying Elbert is a 50 Major Plus Player or not?
Oct. 5, 2017
Benji4
228 posts
So Here is what I take from this entire thread:

If you believe Thunderstruck had or used illegal players then send a written request to SSUSA headquarters with you real name and you will receive an explanation.

OR

You can spend the off season figuring out ways to get BETTER so you can compete next season.

And lastly maybe we will go back to just one division and a blind draw. There won't be any complaining then.............
Oct. 5, 2017
SSUSA Staff
2897 posts
Lee Lee ... Yes, his rating index would be equivalent to 50-Major+ ... As such, he would be 50-Major roster eligible as one of the maximum three allowable "out of rating" players ...
Oct. 5, 2017
Lee Lee
12 posts
Benji4

the system has flaws and they just need to review and make changes to try and improve it. Is it going to be perfect, no but it can become better. I also know for a fact emails were sent to SSUSA prior to LV in regards to this roster and nothing was done. So mistakes were made and we need to move on and hope to not make the same mistakes in the future and congrats on your 50 Major Plus Championship.
Oct. 5, 2017
Lee Lee
12 posts
Thanks Dave.
Oct. 5, 2017
SSUSA Staff
2897 posts
Lee Lee ... Quick clarification ... Based on the emails you referred to, please don't presume nothing was done to change the original eligibility analysis, with the reality that a lot was done to confirm that their roster was fully 50-Major compliant ... They did have the maximum allowed three "out of rating" players, and all other roster players were 50-Major eligible ... Thanks!
Oct. 5, 2017
SKings24
50 posts
SSUSA staff how many Major Plus players are allowed on a Major team?
Oct. 5, 2017
KC_Baron
Men's 60
18 posts
SKings24, unless the rules have changed in the last several years, it used to depend on who the major+ player was and whether or not they were deemed to be an impact player.
Oct. 5, 2017
SSUSA Staff
2897 posts
SKings24 ... Three ... See Rulebook section [emphasis added] below
____________

Rulebook §13.1(1)DIVISIONS OF THE SSWC - at page 61

B. Major division – Comprised of teams that compete to determine the World Champion, Major division. A Major team is one with the potential of becoming World Champions in the Major division and is too strong to compete in the AAA division. Major division teams:
1. Have a five-run limit per inning, except for the final inning of the game in which each team may score unlimited runs.
2. May be invited to the World Masters Championships based upon their qualifying standing.
3. A Major team roster shall not have more than three players with a team affiliation rating history during the two previous tournament seasons greater than Major.

Oct. 5, 2017
Bman63
7 posts
SSUSA Staff and/or info@seniorsoftball.com you have mail.
Oct. 5, 2017
SKings24
50 posts
SSUSA staff then here is my question now that it is established as three Major Plus Players

Tim Millette and Charlie Pennes are a 2 year mandatory rank as major Plus from the 2015 Second place finish with MTC in the 55's at Major Worlds so this would be there second year as Major Plus

Dan Arevalos major Plus Rank

Elbert Certeza carries a 50 Major Plus rank since he came from a 40 Major Roster in which LCW 40's won Worlds last year to be bumped to Major Plus

Rick Garza first year in 50's came from a 40's team Prestige Pools so would carry a Major Plus rank

So with that said that is 5 Major Plus players right there

Please shed some light on this information
Oct. 5, 2017
SSUSA Staff
2897 posts
SKings ... The number is still three, subtracting the three you missed on and the one you forgot to include ... 5 - 3 + 1 = 3

• You are incorrect on both Tim Millette and Charlie Pennas ... They were both on MTC/Dudley 55's, but that team aged up to 60's, and all it's members, had their rating adjusted to 60-Major+, which is were MTC/Dudley was for this season ... They both carry the MTC index, as adjusted by aging up, and are 50-Major eligible ...
• You are incorrect on Rickey Garza ... He did not play for Prestige Pools in 2017 and when he did in 2016, they were 40-Major and were not rated 40-Major+ until June 15, 2017, long after his tenure with them ended ... Accordingly, he ages up as a new 50 player with a 50-Major R/I ...
• The one you missed was Bill Moranville (as the #3 out-of-rating player) because he played in 2017 for Classic Glass/One Nation 40-Major this Season ...

Now that we're done with the public details, we await your submission to the eligibility department for any further clarification or protest ...

Oct. 5, 2017
Hillbilly9
2 posts
I guess Im not the only one that feels the same way with all of the above questions. A CA team in the top 5 of each class. How convenient. Sounds like a lot of players moving around to get away with playing there and its allowed so they can win. Just saying.........
Oct. 5, 2017
SKings24
50 posts
SSUSA - Respectfully how does a two year mandatory Major Plus rank for Tim and Charlie get overlooked as they played in the 55's two years ago? A mandatory rank is just that mandatory. Too many grey areas in this program that allow teams to buck the system to load up. I was told based on your index if a player comes up from the 40's they are considered Major Plus so is what in your rule book is now incorrect? If that is the case by index I am a Major Plus player since I was on a 40 team in 2016. Based on your rules a few teams are considered illegal but somehow the Home Office approves them. Again I enjoy playing the game and with the different rules its hard to know who is legal and who is not. I already sent an email a few days ago
Oct. 5, 2017
r4pitch
78 posts
The big ? of the day. How did they get moved back down after one torney!!!!That is very suspect...That needs a answer....
Oct. 5, 2017
Bman63
7 posts
r4pitch I agree.

I sent an email this morning and I am awaiting the answer to my original question. It is certainly a legit request.
Oct. 5, 2017
LCF16
3 posts
SSUSA - As members/players of SSUSA, I feel you should answer r4pitch (and many others who have asked this question earlier in the thread)about how Thunderstruck can be reclassified to Major after playing only 1 Major Plus tourney (when they are required to play a minimum of 3)......in which they won a game and finished 5th in the tourney. The Senior Softball-USA Team rating appeal form says in bold type: "Ratings are reviewed only two times per year June and December." They played their only Major Plus tourney after the June review and were reclassified in September.


Oct. 5, 2017
jimperry19
45 posts
But in the post above, that was contributed to Tim Millette on another website, he states he is 58. On the SSUSA Staff's most recent post it says 'team aged up to 60s, and all its members had their rating adjusted to 60 major plus'. Wouldn't he be 55 Major plus based on his stated age? I guess it doesn't matter, its not going to change anything. Just cant understand why this stuff seems to happen at Worlds, it seems like that event, more than any other, there should no doubt about the integrity of rosters and teams. I also wish SSUSA didn't do things like 5-3+1=3. That is so condescending to the players (customers) that spent good money, took time off work, worked their asses off all year to go to Vegas and have concerns about alleged violations and questions about how someone got moved down after 1 event. Why not just answer it and move on? Anyway, happy off season to all.
Oct. 5, 2017
LCF16
3 posts
SSUSA - Can you also clarify Rule 4.2(7)- Major Plus Player Restriction
"Major Plus players may only play on Major Plus or Major teams in their same age group."

I interpret this to mean that the 6 Major Plus 55 age group players from Thunderstruck can only play in the 55 age group. Correct?
Oct. 5, 2017
monam33
17 posts
All viable questions that need to be addressed. We will be discussing, as a team, whether to file an appeal or not this weekend. Please keep information coming to strengthen our position.

Your input from the west coast is greatly appreciated!
Oct. 5, 2017
softball4b
Men's 65
1116 posts
I can't speak to why a team was rerated, but 55M+ player carries the same rating as a 50M player.

So technically I believe, a 55M+ team could play in the 50M division if they qualified as such prior to the tourney.

https://seniorsoftball.com/wc/wc2016/Ratings-Index-Chart.pdf



Oct. 5, 2017
SSUSA Staff
2897 posts
SKings24 ... That's a common misconception by many on the player's team rating history concept ... SSUSA rates TEAMS, but DOES NOT rate players ... So a player's rating experience history tracking rises and (occasionally) falls with the rating of that specific team only ... The players you mention with MTC/Dudley history have a mandatory tie to whatever MTC/Dudley's rating is for two years ... Right now, that's 60-Major+, and won't be changing since they won at that rating this year ... As for your 40's question, a player who ages up from 40's to 50's brings his RATING (M+, M or AAA) with him ... So long as he plays 50's ONLY, 50-Major is his "new" history index ... This applies to all players on all teams all Season long ... Inferences by some to the contrary, that we manipulate the system to benefit certain teams, are incorrect at best and highly unfair at worst ...

LCF16, r4pitch and Bman63 ... I have been addressing the "eligibility" side of this issue because I have electronic access to rosters and player histories here in Las Vegas ... I am not a member of the Ratings Committe and do not have access to the "ratings" component ... That is the sole purview of the Ratings Committee personnel in Sacramento ... If you have sent the email requests for clarification, it's presumptive someone in that group will get back to you on what are fair questions, regardless of what the responses from them may be ...

jimperry19 ... No condescending intended ... That easy math equation was the quickest illustration to get from "5" back to "3" and correct errors in the individual player analysis ... And it's still concise and accurate ... My apologies if it offended, that was not the intention ...

LCF16 ... Rulebook §4.2(7) is simply the prohibition against a Major+ player playing AAA or AA in his same age group ... Thunderstruck is (until the automatic bump to Major+ next week) a 50-Major team .. Nobody there playing AAA or AA in any age group ...

monam33 ... We hope you do ... It's certainly within your rights to engage through proper, non-anonymous, means ... Good luck ...

Hope this helps ... Now it's on to Session #4 with 40-Masters Men and Women and 50+ Senior Women starting with the Manager Meeting in a few hours and play Friday through Sunday ... Have fun and play nicely! ... I'm unavailable for a few days now ...

Oct. 5, 2017
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1221 posts
SSUSA with that rational... Tim Middelete would of carried a 50 major plus rating from his MTC 50 second place finish two years ago in 50 majors. his team were all rated major plus 50 or 55s. so technically he is a 50+ player ending this year in Nov
Oct. 5, 2017
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1221 posts
one question I would have what constitutes a returning team. This team had 6 players from it's 55 major plus championship last year! I thought we were told you wouldn't let what happened two years ago with MTC 55 team playing in a 50 major tourney? what happened to that conversation?
Oct. 5, 2017
softball4b
Men's 65
1116 posts
SFTF-I believe this is the answer to your question. 55M+ team could play in the 50M division if they qualified as such prior to the tourney. I can't speak to whether the team did play in a qualifying tournament as a 50M.
Oct. 5, 2017
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1221 posts
So next Thunderstruck gets bumped to 50 plus but they decide to leave their 50 guys behind and now go to 55 major plus and pick up a few 55 major plus guys and now decide to play both 55 major plus and 50 major and that's ok?
Oct. 5, 2017
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1221 posts
from everything said in this thread there were 5 rated 50 plus players on Thunderstruck. I quess that is ok! lol
Oct. 5, 2017
Mulewhipper
Men's 55
128 posts
So...in this scenario, let's say my 50 Major plus team moves up to 55 Major Plus next season...since the rating follows the team and not the players, that means that the six 50 year old Major plus players from our current roster, are now rated 55 Major plus?? Which translates to 50 major players for 2018?? How is it possible for player rankings to follow the teams rankings if they are not legally on the roster??



Oct. 5, 2017
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1221 posts
let's age up Ron. ;-)
Oct. 5, 2017
monam33
17 posts
.....and the web continues to grow.....and grow.....and grow into a tangled mess.
Oct. 5, 2017
michael697
22 posts
Hell ya Richie we should all do it....LOL

All of this is funny as hell...a child's game and because of one team so desperate to win at any cost...some one told me once that this was just a game, a game we play for fun. I guess some people never grow and will still do anything to cheat the system and honest play.
Oct. 5, 2017
TAT22
61 posts
This scenario is the PERFECT EXAMPLE of why we should get rid of the PLUS program!!

Too much confusion about a person's rating or a team's rating, create a new classification called ELITE, players and NOT Teams with the rating ONLY play in that classification and get rid of the state borders with the new classification.

BOOOOM, problem solved!

Oct. 5, 2017
MN26
14 posts
They have $450,000 reasons to just keep running it like it is. The problem with every level and every sanction is: until the teams stop going or the til runs dry change is hard to come by. The people keep playing cause it's the only game around. Coming from the kids game even as a senior, I can't believe how much the Tournaments cost to enter in Senior ball.
If enough guys ask for change they might listen, until then, they own the ball and we just play!
Oct. 5, 2017
DaveDowell
Men's 65
2840 posts
Yep MN 26, I love it when someone plays the "..it's all about the money card.." ... That's (anonymously) hilarious and you NAILED IT! ... You're all over it, because Field Rentals are FREE, Field Preps are FREE, Umpires work for FREE, Umpires stay in hotels for FREE, Umpire, Director and Staff rental cars are FREE, Awards are FREE, Champion rings are FREE, airline flights for Umpires, Staff and Directors are FREE, Directors and Staff work for FREE, our per team payment to LVSSA as our partner is FREE, Directors and Staff hotels are FREE, softballs are FREE, printing and reproduction costs are FREE, our Home Office staff works on this event for months for FREE, etc. ... Awesome how well you did in school with multiplication, but somehow weren't around for the subtraction lessons! ... Nice try ... LOL!

Oct. 5, 2017
softball4b
Men's 65
1116 posts
Apples, Oranges, Tangerines, and plums. Definition of a team - 6 members of the original team carries the team name and team rating if playing in the same age group.

Since they picked up younger players and move down in age, 55M+ team could play in the 50M division. I do not see the confusion. Of course I was edjumacated in the public school system of the great state of Arkansas so I could be wrong.

Bottom-line certain players that played with MTC could not move to 60, there was not enough of them to play 55M+ so they picked up some very good players and moved to a YOUNGER age division to play. Granted they are really good and I am not carrying Tim's water, but the only question is the rerating issue, which I have no knowledge regarding the circumstances that led to their change in status. I can tell you from personal experience/knowledge, Tim M. is not a favored child within the SSUSA group as evidenced by his exclusion from this board.
Oct. 5, 2017
SKings24
50 posts
Dave, here lies the problem if you are Major Plus you are that for a reason age and age up should have nothing to with it. You earned that rank so to speak. In USSSA, NSA, ASA if you are a C player then a D team can only have 3 C players no matter what your age is. Players appeal all the time and get denied basically because they don't belong in the lower divisions, because they want to play with fiends and be the star of the show. For crying out loud we are 50 and up and guys still do whatever it takes to manipulate the system to chase a ring legally or illegally. I have been around this game for years and player ratings take precedence not what age group a team is now especially the two players in question who are not 60 yet so how can that rank apply to them? They should be Major Plus until the age of 60 as MTC will still be playing on the 60's at that time. Too many Grey areas and unwritten rules for all teams to follow. Some have a way to get into the directors ear and find ways to make it work for them but not work for other teams. Player rating regardless would take care of this if a 50 team wants a 55 Major Plus guy then that takes on of those three Major Plus spots. No injury exceptions or other nuances to get re-ranked. Said players wanting appeal need to play for the year where they belong and get evaluated.
Oct. 5, 2017
DaveDowell
Men's 65
2840 posts
SKings24 ... I don't necessarily disagree with your above post (except as it relates to favortism, director interference for their buddies, etc.) ... This is our roster-eligibility system and it's applied consistently across ALL teams ... Could it use some fine-tuning or clarification? ... Quite possibly ... Could some teams be better versed in the nuances of building a compliant roster than others? ... Quite possibly, again ... And maybe that's an undertaking to codify in one place, say a white paper like for the roster composition rules for THIS event, during this off-season ... But we will not be looking for an excuse for shredding a roster in retrospect because Team "A" lost to Team "B" ... Interestingly, the team that is under the microscope this time is, incredibly, the team that was looking down the lens the last time in the "Cornerstone Affair" ... As difficult and frustrating as that exercise was, we hold no grudges based on any team's identity ... We were right last time and are highly confident we are right, again ... Should Team "B" offer a formal complaint for consideration, we will meticulously explain our reasoning (assuming there is any more than already disclosed today!) and rule accordingly ... Thanks for you thoughts ... Much appreciated ...

Oct. 5, 2017
Bballer3
21 posts
I hope everything gets sorted out and someone can come up with a much more simplified way to put together a LEGAL roster so all these little technicalities shouldn't have to be applied in order to justify a champion.
Can someone tell me if a 55M team can play in the 50AAA division next year? - Just asking!
Oct. 5, 2017
NCS13
Men's 50
13 posts
I have to say this whole thread is a joke, what with all the complaining and hair-splitting...

Who cares if a bunch of 55 M+ guys played in the 50 M and won it? Good for them for showing the young guys how it's done. I could care less who plays in what division, I'm just grateful for the chance to move around a bit and get out of the house.

SSUSA has done a fantastic job of creating a competitive environment for all us crotchety old guys to relive our glory day, so stop complaining and start appreciating the fact that we get to keep playing this game for a while longer.

Dave and his staff have always provided us with an incredibly enjoyable experience and always handle things in a professional and courteous manner. Thank you to everyone within the SSUSA organization for providing us a venue to stay young.

Sean Morgan
Nor Cal Warriors
50 M+
Oct. 5, 2017
DaveDowell
Men's 65
2840 posts
** THREAD CLOSED ** Excessive pitch count (88) ... Please feel free to start it up again if appropriate and/or relevant ...
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