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Discussion: New 2018 Melee Reloaded

Posted Discussion
Jan. 12, 2018
Trotter25
32 posts
New 2018 Melee Reloaded
The New Melee Reloaded bats are here!

Have had some questions about the bat and we wanted to give you some more feedback & insight on the Melee Reloaded bat:

We started testing heavier end weight bats about 2 years ago when a lot of bats out there had a 1-2ou end weight. But we wanted to see what we would be best for the Senior Market. When we combined the heavier end weight with our exclusive Adi-light composite (which makes our bats swing faster) - The results were phenomenal, guys were driving the ball, being able to pull the ball instead of having the bat head drag. The best results were with the 3/4 ou end load - which gave us the Melee Reloaded Sr bat. Its the same mold as our other 13" barrel bats with 50% more end weight than the Melee 2 Endload. We also found that with the weights of 25.5, 26.5, 27.5, 28.5 & 29.5 that this bat can be used by all Sr players. Melee Reloaded bat was designed to give optimal swing speed but still feel the end weight all the way thru connecting thru the ball.


Just wanted to give you some info on the New Blue Melee Reloaded bat.


Happy New Year! Looking forward to seeing you & good luck to your team in 2018!


Thanks,
Lee Trotter
Suncoast Team - Adidas
suncoastteam@yahoo.com
Jan. 12, 2018
cyborg45
Men's 70
174 posts
I have a question that so far has gone unanswered. If we are using a 3/4 oz endload in all of the bats, where is the extra weight located for the heavier weight bats? If a 25.5 weight has no extra weight loaded, where is the extra weight located for the 29.5?
Jan. 12, 2018
Trotter25
32 posts
The Melee 2 Endload & Melee 12" Legends of the Game are both 1/2 ou end weight. The Melee Reloaded is a 3/4ou end weight.

You def can feel the weight difference between the endloads & the reload.


Thanks,

Lee Trotter
Suncoast Team - Adidas
Jan. 12, 2018
fennellwg
Men's 60
97 posts
I believe cyborg45 would like to know if the 29.5 oz Reloaded has 4 oz additional weight in the handle compared to a 25.5 oz Reloaded.
Yes/No?

.i.e. are all model weights of the Reloaded the same construction other than an additional weight in the handle?


Jan. 13, 2018
bkb555
215 posts
here is a question...if the bat is end loaded 3/4 ounce, it seems like a production nightmare to make different end caps and different rods in the handle to get the desired weight of the bat...So, like the above poster asked, if end caps are the same does the 29.5 and the 25.5 have different rods in the handle? Thus, neutralizing the end load in the heavier bats???....i remember the re-cert aluminum bat debacle that happened in the early 2000's where the bat companies put a slug into the handle to neutralize the excessive end load in the bat....the weight of the bat went up 4 ounces and took away the end load....Lee, do you have any ideas on this?
Jan. 13, 2018
fennellwg
Men's 60
97 posts
bkb
I’ll keep babbling until lee or one of the other “grownups “ finds time to chime in.

Since all the reloads have the same endload, any difference in the final weight of the bat needs to come from either the strategic use of “ballast “ weight or modification to the composite layup of the shell.

I believe having 5 different composite shell designs for the 5 different model weights would be cost prohibitive .....and probably not provide significant performance benefits.

Typically (but not necessarily) each bat is weighed at final assembly and weights are added to handle to obtain specified model weight. (The weight visible in knob of miken ultra is best example)

Most are suspicious that this “dilutes “ the endload , as you say.
But I believe the intent of the design is to find a location for the added weight that has minimal effect on the chosen endload....despite the obvious cost advantages.

Although it does appear to be dead weight, mass added to the handle does increase the rotational inertial of the bat....and observations by folks conducting bpf tests suggest that the heavier bats in a model line have better performance than the lighter counterparts.

IMO,
Bill

Jan. 13, 2018
AJC
Men's 60
113 posts
Id have to say Cyborgs question was answered by Trotter like a true Politician.
Jan. 13, 2018
fennellwg
Men's 60
97 posts
Lee may not be able to give you the answer you are looking for.

If all else fails, knowing the actual location of the bat’s balance point will provide most of the missing information about the mass distribution in the bat .
Additionally, it will be the primary indicator as to how fast you will be able to swing it compared to other bats with a known balance point and weight.

Folks like Dave of “senior softball bat reviews” has started to provide this info as part of his reviews.

Some of the other popular sales reps are also willing to provide such info for bats in their inventory.

Bill
Jan. 13, 2018
AJC
Men's 60
113 posts
I guess if you need a direct question answered about softball bats you need to ask Alan Tanner. He seems to give the most direct and precise answers to bat questions that are asked.

Jan. 13, 2018
bkb555
215 posts
there is a great article about Physics of softball and here is a link to swing weight (end load, balanced, etc) and how it affects how a bat feels in your hands

http://www.acs.psu.edu/drussell/bats/bat-moi.html

Jan. 13, 2018
cyborg45
Men's 70
174 posts
I know Alan reads this board and is certainly welcome to give his professional observation. It used to be that the extra weighting was added to the handle. Thus making the lightest weight the most endloaded. I was unsure if the manufactures of today still use this procedure. It sounds as if they still may. I agree with fennellwg that different shells for different weights would probably be cost prohibitive as well as affecting the performance of each weight. So the extra weight has to go somewhere. I would just like to know where exactly.
Jan. 13, 2018
bkb555
215 posts
cyborg...I agree with your statement, the lightest weight bat HAS to have the most end load.....that is assuming that ALL the end caps are weighted the same.....i have seen a balanced end cap and an end loaded end cap from a Reebok Melee and they are way different...the end load has a bunch of epoxy and pellets floating in it...unless the manufacturers have 4 different end caps, it is probably easier to just put different weighted rods in the handle.....we probably have enough broken bats from members on this board to get enough samples...lol
Jan. 13, 2018
crusher
Men's 70
521 posts
So, can you get a 26oz bat then get 4 pair of gloves that weigh 1oz 2oz 3oz and 4oz. Result would be a 26oz bat all the way though a 30oz bat.

A 26oz bat should provide more swing speed and ball exit speed. Is that true?

C
Jan. 13, 2018
AJC
Men's 60
113 posts
The shell would have to be the same for all weights i would think. For each oz up in weight they would hsve to split the difference between the handle and the end cap to keep whatever end load for that bat model the same thru out that line of bats. This of course is only my guess.
Jan. 13, 2018
cyborg45
Men's 70
174 posts
bkb555, I would assume, as their advertising asserts, that the end loads are consistent at 3/4 oz. The balanced version would not have the pellets for the endload. I doubt that there would be 4 different endcaps. Crusher, assuming the weight in the handle is correct, your model would be correct. Assuming the gloves were placed at the same location as the handle weight. It is my belief if all of this is true, the lower bat weight endloads "should" produce the most endload swing speed and exit speed. A balanced bat will probably produce a different result. I would welcome any and all opinions on this.


Jan. 13, 2018
OZ40
409 posts
I always thought that it was the handle area that got tweaked the most at the factory. I suspect that it would be easier to get an answer out of a car dealer as to how they mark up new car prices then it is to get a straight answer to your question.
Jan. 14, 2018
bkb555
215 posts
This is older and Miken bay but it had to be somewhat similar

https://youtu.be/wMEBhv07lPU
Jan. 14, 2018
fennellwg
Men's 60
97 posts
To cyborg and bkb,
Let me say that I encourage your questions. Most of what I think I know about bat performance comes from the Russell article cited by bkb.
Russell as well as Richard Brandt and Alan Nathan provide a wealth of experimental and theoretical work related to softball bat design.

But don’t let your questions distract you from the few basic “ truths” that the folks above all agree on.

1) Momentum (linear and rotational) is the combination of velocity and inertia.
The transfer of momentum from bat to ball is what makes a softball go 300 ft.

2) your ability to obtain max bat speed is inversely proportional to the moment of inertia (MOI) of the bat.
The greater the MOI, the slower your batspeed will be.
Endload, total weight, length, are all factors that influence MOI.

3) batspeed is good if you want to maximize batted ball speed (BBS) and distance.
HOWEVER, if batspeed is obtained by a proportional reduction in the MOI of the bat (see #2 above) there is no net gain in momentum and resulting BBS.

*assuming you have a personal preference for balanced or endloaded styles.
The bat with the greatest MOI that does not cause a proportional drop in batspeed will give you the most pop , (but total weight, endload or balanced don’t drive the math as much as MOI) , IMO
**
What the math and theory do not tell you is whether or not the Melee Reloaded is a turd or the greatest bat ever. Since they all need to pass BPF testing like everyone else and they have a pretty good track record , odds are you will be able to swing one of their flavors as effectively as all the other “best” bats on the market.

regards,
Bill


Jan. 17, 2018
cyborg45
Men's 70
174 posts
I think I have found the answer to my original question. On the Seniorsoftball website with Dave, there is a video of how a composite bat is made. Near the end, it shows a rod being added to the handle for "swing weight". It did not mention any other means of weight adjustment for the finished product.
Jan. 17, 2018
Trotter25
32 posts
Youre correct I cant go into a lot of details on how are bat is loaded exactly. We took the Melee 2 Endload and added 50% more endload to the end weight. That's why the Melee Reloaded bats are in half sizes: 25.5, 26.5, 27.5, 28.5, 29.5 Adidas just added the weight to the endweight with a small amount of counterweight.

For guys that like End weights - you need to take a look at the Melee Reloaded. Im highly impressed with this bat. Took us over 2+ years to find the right design and now we have it.



Thanks,
Lee Trotter
Suncoast Team - Adidas
Jan. 17, 2018
bkb555
215 posts
besides all the engineering marvels of the new bat, I must say that the bat has all the pop of all the other Melee editions...you will not be disappointed if you are used to the Melee performance plus the added end load and longer barrel than the 12 inch model...something for everyone here.....i would go to the lesser weighted bat than your normal weight....i.e 26 ounce regular user, go to a 25.5....it will feel like your regular bat swing-wise but have the added endload through the hitting zone...but that is just my opinion
Jan. 18, 2018
AJC
Men's 60
113 posts
Cyborg, there is weight added to the end caps. We have cut off the end of the bat approx an inch and a half from the end cap ( so as not to cut into the end cap ) on bats that were cracked just out of curiosity. We have found actual nuts, bb's and what looked like lead pcs glued in place with epoxy. Using this model bat as an example which has 3/4 oz end load that for every ounce added in weight, the extra weight would added to both the handle and the end cap. This would allow the bat to swing as a 3/4 oz end loaded bat.
Jan. 18, 2018
fennellwg
Men's 60
97 posts
Thanks AJC,
Your suggestion that the additional weight may be added to both the knob and end cap makes a lot of sense.
If true, that would be the same as saying that the addidas Reloaded bats all have the same Balance Point. yes/no?

Don’t cut the bat up. Just measure the balance point.

Most of the recent 27 oz endloaded Melee bats have a balance point around BP= 21.5”
Dudley bats seem to be a bit less @ BP=21” and
Combats are typically the most @ BP= 22”

Dave V. Steve B. and Doug have provided a good assortment of measurements for a variety of manufacturers, models and weights.

All of the above options are possible. Lee can’t tell you, but pretty soon someone will just measure the BP of one to tell us how the weight distribution compares to other brands.

There are a lot of people that believe “diluting “ the endload by adding additional weight to the knob is not good for performance. I happen to agree.

However, it’s suggested by folks that manufacture and test bats that the heavier and more endloaded senior bat have trouble passing the BPF test for SSUSA approval because they are too good. ....shifting some of the weight to the handle allows them to pass BBF.
regards,
Bill



Jan. 18, 2018
cyborg45
Men's 70
174 posts
Ok, I'm confused here. So if there is weight added to heavier models both in the handle and the endload, what is the endload of the heaviest weight. If the bats are supposed to have a 3/4 oz endload as advertised, do the heavier bats have more than a 3/4 oz endload? Do the lighter bats have less than 3/4 endload? If each bat weight is loaded differently, what are the weights in the handle and endload for the individual listed weights? As far as the heavier weights passing the BPF standard. As I understand, this is why bats only go up to 30oz. Heavier weights than that will not pass the test.
Jan. 18, 2018
mck71
105 posts
Based on what I read above cyborg, all end loads and barrels are the same, additional weight are either in the handle or knobs (my belief is a rod in the handle, easier way to manage vs cost)
Jan. 20, 2018
fennellwg
Men's 60
97 posts
Both AJC and mck71 offer opinions as valid as anyone’s.

I’m going to stand by my comment above and quote myself;
“All of the above options are possible. Lee can’t ( or won’t) tell you, but pretty soon someone will just measure the BP of one to tell us how the weight distribution compares to other brands”

One extra tidbit to add to your confusion:
Dave V ( senior softball bat reviews) posted some measurement for the endloaded 12” Melee 2 .
He weighed the barrel end while the bat was positioned horizontally and simply supported at the knob.

One bat 27 oz and the other was 26oz.

The barrel end of the 27 weighed 16.8 oz
The barrel end of the 26 weighed 16.7 oz

Pretty close, all things considered.
Jan. 21, 2018
cyborg45
Men's 70
174 posts
It then would seem to me, if the balance points of the 2 weights were similar, that the one ounce would have to be loaded somewhere. I guess I don't understand why "lee can't(or won't)" tell us how the weights are distributed. After all he is, I assume, a rep for the Melee line. I would also assume that they should be knowledgeable about the bats construction and be able to disseminate this information to possible buyers.
Jan. 21, 2018
AJC
Men's 60
113 posts
I could be way over thinking this. Mck71 could very well be correct in terms of how and where each oz up of weight is added. I know for sure that for end loads the extra weight is added inside the end cap with expoxy and various types of weights. So for a 3/4 oz endload it would be safe to say its 3/4 total weight between the epoxy and weights. For each oz added, it probably is added to the handle only, the 1 oz heavier bat would still have 3/4 oz endload. We did not cut open any balanced bats that were cracked and no longer useful but i would guess that on balanced bats that the end cap did not have any epoxy or weights added to it.
Jan. 22, 2018
fennellwg
Men's 60
97 posts
Don’t blame Lee.
Anyone getting a paycheck has an obligation to comply with the wishes of management.
Virtually all of the principal bat manufacturers have made it policy to not provide basic mass and inertial properties of their products.
Maybe they don’t want to confuse us with details that may distract from the fancy paint job or marketing hype...?

The good news is that as more folks become aware of the relationship between these properties and performance many third party reviews are willing to provide the answers.

Knowing the actual BPF measurements of each bat would definitely be catastrophic to all the potential losers. But the fact is, all of the major vendors make some really good bats.
Knowing the balance point or moment of inertia is just a way to identify the properties that suit an individual’s preference or skill level.
Not much different than knowing your own shoe size.
IMO.
Bill
Jan. 22, 2018
SOFTBALLNUTZ
25 posts

fennellwg:
I think you have very good knowledge about bats and such. I have a question for you. I know this is not exactly in line with this thread. Anyway, I have notice several guys buying the Adidas 12" Melee 2 in the 30 ounce version. They all agree that they are getting better results than with the lighter versions of the same model. Do you think that the there may be a better performance combination for different weight/end load for that bat over others of the same model?



Jan. 22, 2018
fennellwg
Men's 60
97 posts
SOFTBALLNUTZ,
If all things were equal, the increased inertia of heavier bats helps to transfer more momentum to the ball for greater ball speed and distance.
However, increasing bat inertia usually causes a proportional decrease in batspeed for no net change in momentum transfer and no real performance advantage....bummer

That said, there are no laws of physics or genetics that require “all things “ to be equal.
Now that I’m in my 60s I know a lot of old guys that are still “strong as an ox”
but have lost a lot of fast twitch muscle. That may limited in batspeed , but they can still swing a Buick as fast as their 30 oz bat.
I’m only partly joking, but if you’re gonna swing slow, swing the heaviest thing you can.

Theoretically there are a couple of things that could work in your favor.
Even if the bats had similar performance, softballs are the least efficient part of the collision. .44 COR balls lose a lot of energy to friction as the ball is deformed..
Lower batspeed of a 30 oz bat could “theoretically “ cause less deformation of the ball and associated friction losses.....not sure I believe that.
In one of the D. Russel articles he states that all BPF tests for SSUSA are conducted by firing a softball at the mathematical center of percussion (sweet spot) of the bat. Heavier bats ( greater MOI) tend to have better BPF measurements. Testers have noted that small shifts in the balance point of the bat can shift the center of percussion without having much effect on the true location of peak performance. Net result is the bat may be tested at a location that is not where peak performance occurs. I don’t know if this is standard for senior bats , but I know ASA certification dictates testing at multiple locations along the barrel to find the point of peak performance.

I guess the devil is always in the details.
bill
March 28, 2018
marcster13
78 posts
Hi all! These Melee Reloaded bats have been out awhile now. Just checking in on durability. I swung a friends and it felt amazing to swing so I bought one. Once thing i have noticed is these bats do not seem to have the same "soft" barrel feel when striking a ball. Is it my imagination or maybe I have not broken the bat in enough? I am trying to limit the swings until I hear more about durability. Thanks!
March 29, 2018
Bruster55
Men's 55
89 posts
I have been using the adidas Reloaded since Oct with no signs of any problems.It is a great bat! Big sweet spot and awesome performance.
April 2, 2018
ebes03
1 posts
How do they swing as far as the 3/4 oz end load.

I loved the worth jeff hall 27.5 reload with the 1/2 oz
Trying to figure out if a melee reloaded 26.5 or 27.5 would swing closer to the above mentioned bat.
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