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Discussion: Today's "super" bats

Posted Discussion
Feb. 9, 2018
OZ40
537 posts
Today's "super" bats
A lot has been said about today's senior bats both good and bad, What side do you fall on? Does anyone need a super bat? Does anyone need a daily driver automobile with 600 horsepower? Do we really need refrigerators or were we fine with ice boxes? Are the above examples basically the same argument? If we are to draw a line, where does one draw it? Can we place artificial limits on progress? Does anyone need a super bat?
Feb. 9, 2018
DieselDan
Men's 70
426 posts


https://www.123rf.com/photo_30535198_stock-vector-emoticon-with-question-marks-in-his-eyes.html?fromid=bklEdU8vS0lxbHlOUTFRa1hkQ291Zz09







Feb. 10, 2018
JDub
Men's 60
203 posts
STOOOPID BATS aren't going away, and Soft Balls (misnomer) are consistently in the Debate as well. The Rock is Too Hot, the Stote is a POS! Now Factor in Weather & Elevation that affect Soft Ball Performance too. SHEEESH ! ! !


Have Fun, Be Safe,
JDub / Whitey
Feb. 10, 2018
Dbax
Men's 60
1880 posts
I would really prefer a refrigerator over an ice box.
Feb. 10, 2018
r4pitch
78 posts
Sadly we need bat testing at the senior level. For cheaters and for bats that have gotten to hot from normal use.....
Feb. 10, 2018
Jawood
Men's 50
926 posts
These bats are not going to go away but the real need is doing something about the growing number of cheaters out there. It's like MLB ignoring the problem for a long time with steroids. SSUSA is ignoring this problem ... start testing!
Feb. 10, 2018
titanhd
Men's 50
576 posts
EXPLAIN THE "TEST".... Please.

Out of the wrapper some of Senior bats exceed the standard and certainly after a few rounds of BP wouldn't pass the standard. Jawood yours won't pass either!Just as a broad statement bats exceeding a test doesn't or shouldn't imply "cheating".

JDUB is correct these bats aren't going away.The ball is a great place to start and can be made to whatever allowable spec required but, every time we change balls or make a changes to the ball we all go ballistic that the ball isn't "hot enough".So what we have are HOT balls and "LEGAL" bats that are "too hot!" EXPLAIN the test....
Feb. 10, 2018
OZ40
537 posts
Dbax-Good one :-) But seriously, how long can we stop progress for?

Jawood- I've never taken a steroid in my life (but I've never missed a good meal!) Some tournaments in the past have had bat-in-a-barrel near the strike mat and players had to choose from them. This will not catch on because the bat manufacturers would lose big time.

On the flip side if you think players will 'self police' themselves or the game then I've got some nice bottom land for sale too that you might be interested in.
Feb. 10, 2018
Fabe
Men's 60
418 posts
Kinda funny that this topic comes around n nothing changes! None of of these new (good) bats would pass a SAFE compression test! Even my OG Combats would fail the test. I remember in the 90's us Island Boyz neva heard of a juiced bat! When we traveled everyone wuz banging hrs.! Then it finally got to us....only way to minimize this problem is funky balls n bat testing, that would cause the Senior market to crash! Technology is here my Braddahs we have to prepare n adjust! Stay healthy n safe! Aloha, Fabe
Feb. 10, 2018
ChiPrimeMarty
Men's 60
97 posts
I agree that "super" bats are here to stay. This is a hitter's game and senior hitters like to hit with these bats.

I have to admit it feels good smoking the ball. I've hit more home runs over 300' fences in my 11 years of senior ball than I did in the 22 years before that. But I don't think it makes the game better. It reduces the importance of speed and defense. It diminishes the home run by making it more common -- the product of technology as much as hitting prowess.

Anyway, that's my $.02. I love this game and will keep playing as long as I can. I'll keep buying and swinging the most potent bat I can find because that's what the competition is doing, and my competitive fires still burn.

Given the choice, I would have senior softball go with the ASA bats I swing in my local leagues. I'll be happy with warning track power and tip my cap to those who can still hit it out.
Feb. 10, 2018
bigboy11
17 posts
I agree, the bats are really hot and they are not going anywhere , however I'd like to see something done to protect the pitcher before something bad happens. My suggestion would be for us to use a screen, a lot of places use it for leagues already.
Feb. 11, 2018
r4pitch
78 posts
Titanhd as I said we have cheaters and we have bats that are too hot after normal use. We need to pick a number and test bats. We have people shaving these nuts bats. Do we really want a net on the field or should we do something about bats.....
Feb. 11, 2018
mnball
27 posts
Fellas,
I play 50 Major+ and I will be 54 this year. I own about every senior bat thats been made for the last 4 years and I think all my bats would fail ANY test after I put 200 swings plus on them. The only way to make it an even playing field is to have 4-8 bats per field from various companies and you can pick your 26 or 28oz bat - it would suck - but thats where we are heading..
Last year I broke 4 senior bats and I started using some USSSA bats for bp - which surprisingly are damn near on par with the best SSUSA bats - we played against a number of guys who where hitting USSSA bats last year in Vegas..
Feb. 11, 2018
SS11
41 posts
You guys say the bats would fail a compression test. What are you basing that on? What compression number do you think these bats that are 1.21 BPF (which means they are better than USSSA bats at 1.20BPF. Which means they will have a lower compression ratio to get the increased performance. I believe for USSSA it has to be above 220 (or 1450psi). So for these bats, 200? I'm all for testing them to make sure they are good, but that is easier said than done. So do they test at the beginning of each day of the tournament to make sure it is still good for that day and place a non-removable sticker for the day? Retest every day of the tourney to make sure somebody doesn't shave the bat after getting it tested? Or to make sure that after a bat tested right above the limit, the bat wasn't taken to BP and another 150 swings put on it, to get it down to 185? What's the answer. Going to crap balls isn't it. As an infielder on a 40 Major+ team, I don't mind the Rock ball. It comes off hard, but bounces pretty true. Looking forward to trying the new ball. The problem with the Trump Stote was the absolute loss of performance in 90+ weather. Then when you see guys with worse swings then you find on an Alabama front porch hitting them 350, when the ball is a sock, you know the bats have been altered. I know there are guys on one of the top teams in the country removing loads from their bat. Trying to say they aren't shaving them or anything, but still altering them. It's a shame, but it's the sport we love. Just my $.02...
Feb. 12, 2018
ETDave
31 posts
I know that no one wants to hear this, but the seniors need to go to the 52/300 ball. Not as affected by temperature changes. They don't cause as much damage when a person is hit by them as the 44/375 and they fly just fine. We've used them in senior league here for several years and no complaints.
Feb. 12, 2018
mnball
27 posts
I play 2 nights a week at 3rd base with some younger guys and I will say that the 52/300 is a ball that on the second hop you simply don't know whats going to happen. We easily hit this ball 325' plus with our ASA bats and I will say with a senior bat they will fly but not like the balls we use in Vegas. Plus my senior sticks would actually last twice as long - ETDave - you might be on to something here.
Feb. 12, 2018
DCPete
380 posts
A very large number of teams wouldn't travel to a tournament that used the 52/300 ball. They would choose to play in any other association that used a 44/375 ball.
This isn't a guess; just look at how many teams have complained about the 44/375 Stote ball because it wasn't good enough and it's still better than any 52/300 ball.
Feb. 12, 2018
Benji4
230 posts
A 52/300 core ball is way too bouncy and infielders would get more injured. If you play 400 plus games a year in different associations you would see that a 40/375 or 44/375 ball is fine. Nobody wants to hit a wet sock type ball and besides in seniors you can play deeper in the infield because most guys don't run as well.
Feb. 12, 2018
vquinton21
Men's 55
8 posts
If a team doesn't want to travel because of using a different ball, well too bad tell them not to come. Hitters can hit any ball. Plus I have no problem if they change the ball to a 52/300. The sad part is unfortunately I think there has to be bat testing.
Feb. 13, 2018
OZ40
537 posts
Good points Benji. Our rec league uses the 52/300 because the fields they play at have shorter fences, our upper division uses Alan's 44/375 microcell ball. Both leagues allow only u-trip or lower bats except in the upper if a player is 70 or over he may use a senior bat.
Feb. 13, 2018
Webbie25
Men's 65
2273 posts
Anybody who really thinks that SSUSA will back off the ball or the bats any time in the near future need only look at the fact that they changed balls this year because of complaints on the Trump Stote 44/375 not flying when it gets hot. Let's face it, we all are trying to maintain the level we used to hit at, and these bats and balls give us the illusion that we can-LOL. But, I do think banning someone that is caught with a shaved or doctored bat should face criminal charges-not just banning. At our ages the reflexes are going and that is dangerous and purposeful.
On the balls, as an infielder I hate the 52/300 as it is way too bouncy and on even a slightly rough infield takes a lot of bad hops. The Rock also has a tendency to 'spin up' as I phrase it, on the second hop. I have seen countless times that the second hop is higher than you expect and have seen that hop break noses before (High Street Bucs third baseman a couple years ago in Worlds, I think it was). It is usually just enough to carom off the glove when you think you have it.
This is just something we have to live with and adjust to. I'm not ready to retire yet.
Feb. 13, 2018
ETDave
31 posts
I'm guessing a lot of you guys dismissing the 52/300 ball as a bad idea haven't played that much with them. We've used them in senior league here in east Texas for 4-5 years. Home runs have gone up if anything, and I haven't heard any complaints from the infielders about hops being any worse than they were when we used the 52/300. We seniors are usually resistant to change. lol
Feb. 13, 2018
ETDave
31 posts
I guess you can't edit your posts here. My post above should have said the hops weren't any worse than when we used the 44/375 balls.
Feb. 13, 2018
DCPete
380 posts
ET - don't know which 52/300 you're using but in the 5 years we've been using them in our Senior leagues Home Runs have become almost non-existent except for a few in the Fall leagues when it gets below about 60 degrees. Best guess is they're about 15% shorter carry in the air than a 44/375 ball.
Feb. 13, 2018
OZ40
537 posts
You cannot legislate bad hops out of the game short of using a nine pound iron ball. (that would take care of the shaved bats too) Most bad hops result from fielding behind the lip or the ball bouncing on a beat up base path. If you guys that are fans of the 52/300 and believe it to be just as good would like to make a rule that you personally be allowed to hit it instead of 44/375 during tournaments go for it, see how many players sign on to that.
Feb. 13, 2018
crusher
Men's 75
524 posts
ETDave, what is secret bat you use? I play Dallas day league using 52/300. Playing tournament with 44/375 l will hit ball out now and then. With 52 ball in 3 years on 300’ field - zip -. Oh, yes l cut the ball for max carry.
Also, have not seen anyone hit a ball out.
SO, what is secret bat.
Thanks, James
Feb. 13, 2018
fennellwg
Men's 60
97 posts
Hmmm.. the circular logic for this thread appears to be spiraling to its forgone conclusion.

Things started by chastising SSUSA for not protecting players through better regulation of bats.
Soon the bats were not really the culprit, we just need to change the balls.
But if we change the ball, the number of “old guy” home runs will drop.

The overall consensus seems to be: “Do whatever it’s takes, just don’t change anything.”

Did I miss anything?
As long as senile old geezers are willing to stand in front of 100 mph missiles just so they get another chance to hit one out, I’m pretty sure things are not changing anytime soon.

The only suggestion I have is to dress all infielders like hockey goalies and turn em loose.

Feb. 13, 2018
Sparky.1
Men's 65
272 posts
Totally agree with your assessment "fennellwg". Most were never considered "power hitters" back in their youth but now with these high tech tools at their disposal, they are in their own mind, an awesome "hitting machine".

Sparky1
"the Rattlesnake" (just for Dave) [grins]
Feb. 13, 2018
ETDave
31 posts
DCPete and Crusher I play league ball in Tyler. I'm almost 61 and can hit the 52/300 out with an ASA bat. I usually hit 3-4 every 24 games or so. I'm 5'8" and could stand to lose 30 lbs or so, so it should be easy for people taller and in better shape. 300 foot fences all around.

All I can tell you is that in my experience it would be safer ball for seniors. I thought this thread was about the bats being too hot and the 52/300 lets you still hit the ball out but does much less damage if you are hit by the ball.

MadDog plays league there too and might have some thoughts if he sees this.

Looks like I struck a nerve suggesting it. Sorry.
Feb. 13, 2018
ETDave
31 posts
Good post fennellwg!
Feb. 13, 2018
crusher
Men's 75
524 posts
OZ40, looks like you will need to ask same questions about ASA bats if softball goes with the 52/300 ball because it will be the juiced bat. LOL
Feb. 13, 2018
OZ40
537 posts
A common misconception here is that the 44/375 or "better" balls help only the homerun hitters: Wrong. As stated, in our league going back prior to the last 2 seasons both upper and lower divisions used the 52/300. After the games in the local pub the usual banter-"how'd you guys do today"? and the usual response-"okay, but we just didn't hit". Sound familiar? From our experience the guys were hitting but the 52/300 at least in our mixed climate here, wasn't getting through the infield or lining the gaps with the same authority. I suggested we switch back to the 44/375 in the upper division with the 300+ fences and keep the 52/300 in the lower division with the shorter fences. I explained to the upper division managers that the better ball will help their singles/doubles hitters more than it will the so called power hitters because the ball will get through the infield and up the gaps faster, and defensively they still have the option to walk a power hitter if the situation arises. This season will make 3 now that we switched back to the 44/375 ball. Everyone seems happier and the ball even makes a nice sound off the U-Trip or lower bats we are allowed to use instead of the bloomp sound from the other balls.
Feb. 13, 2018
superfonzie
Men's 50
18 posts
i will have to disagree on he 52/300 ball being safer for players and doing less damage when hit by it, cant post pics here but i assure you like MNBALL says they are very unpredictable on the infield, 2nd or 3rd bounce is anybodies guess, and i have the bruises (and pics) to prove it ... i got drilled in the leg (knee area) at 3B by a 52/300 ASA ball last sept in league and i still have discoloration and a very small lump on my leg, so i do not like the 52/300 ball for that reason ... no matter where you play or what league your in and whatever ball you are using you should protect yourself at all times, we seem to get complacent that we wont get hurt but eventually we will, .... as far as HOT bats go, well i don't think there seems to be a good alternative yet, but i do agree that even Senior bats should be tested .... i play league with/against guys that routinely brag that they know their bats are not legal as far as compression goes but use them anyway because they can and there are no rules for testing bats that are in place for any league I've probably EVER played in ... so unless you are playing in a big tourney and one of the last 4 teams standing no one cares to test bats, seems like an inconvenience to the directors.... just my .02$
Feb. 13, 2018
OZ40
537 posts
CRUSHER- I played in a travel league a few years back and had to use the 52/300 with ASA bats I can't remember the bat name but it was an ASA and was maroon and bright yellow it was hot and I bought it new so I knew it wasn't monkeyed with.

The associations won't police bats because they turn better than 1.21 very quickly and no one wants to spend 200 plus bucks and have your bat thrown out two tournaments into the season.

Until they can make a one piece composite bat including the end with no added endcap guys will continue to thin them.
Feb. 13, 2018
HJ
Men's 70
481 posts
Facts are facts and it is very dangerous to cite personal anecdotes.

For a personal anecdote about 6 years ago I got hit in the leg pitching BP with a 44/375. It was indented with a 1/4 inch hole for 6 months and took longer than that to heal and I am left with a permanent flat 2 inch egg-shaped scar.

The facts are that a ball with a Severity Index of higher than 1200 will fracture a skull. 44/375's have a Severity Index of 1800 to 2400 and the 52/300's are about a Severity Index of 500. You may prefer for whatever reason to play with 44/375 balls but please don't say they are safer. Older infielders are commonly hit in the lower leg by 44/375s which hug the ground and don't come up the way former generations of balls did.

In the heat of summer as a gross generalization, 44/375s often are worse than a 53/300. HRs in our rec league using 44/375s are way more prominent in the early spring and cool September weather.
Feb. 13, 2018
OZ40
537 posts
I had a slap shot blow apart my shin guard several years ago and tore the fascia on the front of my left leg. I guarantee you the hardness of a frozen puck is much higher than a softball. If you want to play any sport involving an object and velocity protect yourself. Our league allows screens and helmets whatever you want to wear for safety, this year the bases in the upper division have been moved 5 feet further back to 70' allowing the fielders to play deeper and still throw out runners.
Feb. 14, 2018
mad dog
Men's 65
4175 posts
ok et dave........all senior bats are supposed to be rated the same as the old asa bats....1.20/1.21 bpf when tested(depends on which ball being used....47 for 1.20...44 for 1.21).....making all bats basically the same....the 44 and the 40 balls have a way higher severity index as hj has pointed out.....i play with the 52 ball in both senior and mens open....pitching and the infield....yes we get the occasional bad hop...but no serious injuries from the 52 ball...bumps and bruises......the ball while travel fairly good all yr here in tyler...with hr hitters hitting their hrs.....
crusher no secret bats needed....just use your senior bat...no need for a gorilla swing either......dave actually hits them out with an old easton asa bat of his.....red synergy......also uses his senior bats....the 52 ball doesn't care what bat you use.....hr hitters will hit hrs and base hitters won't.....
Feb. 14, 2018
SOFTBALLNUTZ
30 posts
Has anybody see a well hit line drive come straight at them?
I have and I play outfield!

Has anybody seen a well hit line drive "Rock" ball come straight at them?
I have....
And as the "Rock" ball was coming at me, I could see the ball change it's shape and came at me much like a "whiffle" or "knuckle ball" moving up/down and left/right as much as 3-5 feet. The ball's outer cover seperates from the ball to make the ball fly like a ball that has a serious cut or groove in it. I'm sure all you fielders have seen the erratic flight of the "Rock" ball and may even have been hit by it. Lower performance bats will not change the flight characteristics of a well hit line drive ball that deforms or changes shape in flight.
Feb. 14, 2018
ETDave
31 posts
Another advantage of the 52/300 is our senior bats will last a loooong time hitting them.
Feb. 14, 2018
tattooball
755 posts
Try the Tattoo NX3 .52/300 it will change you mind about all the bad things you believe about the .52 ball.
Feb. 14, 2018
mnball
27 posts
I have used this newNX3 52/300 and I agree its a much better ball than the old 52/300 Tattoo ball as I have had to use ( and still use) this ball in our league. Our league director will not budge on trying the new NX3 either.
When I play 3rd base with the older Tattoo 52/300 and im playing against upper level players - if you get hit by a conference player with a tennis ball - its going to do some damage - I tend to play 3rd base about 2' in front of the lip and hope for the nice 1 hop instead of the 2-3 hop which can go absolutely anywhere - NX3 has a truer bounce pattern to it if you ask me.
Feb. 16, 2018
Wayne 37
Men's 65
721 posts
superfonzie ~ It sounds like quite possible you have a staph infection. You need to get that checked out.

Feb. 18, 2018
DOERBAUM
Men's 55
82 posts
here's some outside the box thinking, why not go to a higher compression 52 cor ball? if people are complaining they don't fly as good as the 44-375s go to a 52 cor 375 compression? in my mind the compression has as much or more to do with the ball flight than the cor does. i have everything from 52-300 to stadium balls in my BP ball wagon and hit them all out. All the bats are good now days, you can't tell me the manufacturers can't come up with a ball that works good and still has safety designed into it.... Kevin ??? aren't the stadium balls high cor high compression, like 50-525, 50-600?? my BP ball of choice is the nx3. i have a large lot ordered and can't wait to get them. don't know what cor and comp they are, but put a good leather cover on them and i think you would have a GREAT game ball. easy on bats, they fly great and are designed with a low severity index. thoughts??
Feb. 19, 2018
fennellwg
Men's 60
97 posts
DOERBAUM, or anyone that wants to comment.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe the NX3 is marketed as a safer alternative with lower severity index is due specifically to it’s relatively LOW compression of 300psi.

Going to a harder ball will certainly hit and field as true as any, but collisions with body parts will be more damaging and take a bigger toll.

-bill

Feb. 19, 2018
HJ
Men's 70
481 posts
NX3 is not a specific cor or compression. It is a totally sealed ball which does not absorb water. It can be found on the A D Starr website.
It comes in many different configurations. Actually the cor is more important to the severity index of the ball since the higher the cor the more the impact is spread out. The lower cor balls (e.g., 44/375) concentrates the force with a resulting higher severity index.
Feb. 19, 2018
tattooball
755 posts
In relation to severity index, it is the combination of both cor/comp.

So raising the comp on a .52 would be safer than a .44/375 but its like saying a 357 mag is safer than a 44 mag.
Feb. 19, 2018
fennellwg
Men's 60
97 posts
Thanks Kevin & HJ ,
Your explanation for the effects of COR on severity index still leaves me a bit confused, but I have no problem accepting your test results.

So for clarity,
Is it safe to say that increasing the compression of any ball with a fixed COR will create a corresponding increase in severity index?

What Compression combined with a .52 COR ball is likely to limit the severity index to 1200 ?

regards.
bill
Feb. 19, 2018
HJ
Men's 70
481 posts
Bill, I suggest that to get an answer to your question you speak to Kevin directly as I have done a few times. There are many combinations of cor and comp with differing Severity Indices. I have just purchased a doz each of A D Starr's BP balls. The blue/yellow one is a 52/300 with a severity index of 500 and the green/yellow one is a 47/500 with a severity index of about 1100. Per Kevin the 47/500 is obviously less safe, but conversely will play closer to the prevailing 44/375s.
Additionally the 52/300 won't break bats as fast as the 44/375s.
Feb. 20, 2018
tattooball
755 posts
HJ so the green and yellow are around .47/450 comp.
So my question is why would anyone want to hit a ball right at the dangerous limit. At an SI of 500 there is plenty of survivable room.
Feb. 20, 2018
fennellwg
Men's 60
97 posts
Thanks again,
I’m not proposing any COR/comp flavor.
Just curious to see where they fall if compared against some equivalent standard like SI

I was surprised by DOERBAUM’s proposal to use a 500 psi comp ball. But if the crash test dummys indicate that such a hard ball can be matched with a COR that makes it “relatively” safe ....so be it.

Feb. 20, 2018
HJ
Men's 70
481 posts
Kevin, fair question. As you know, I am in a league which uses 44/375s exclusively. You have told me 44/375s range from 1800 to 2400. I don't control the ball used by my league. If it were my choice, we would use the 52/300s which are clearly much safer. Sometimes a journey starts with small steps. By furnishing both BP balls at my expense I am hoping to educate my fellow league members. I encourage the use of face masks. This is personal for me because last spring I was about 15 feet from an infielder who caught one on the check. It resulted in broken bones, concussion, vision problems and significant out of pocket medical expenses.
Feb. 20, 2018
SOFTBALLNUTZ
30 posts
HJ
Was that infielder hit by a "Rock" ball?
Feb. 21, 2018
HJ
Men's 70
481 posts
It was a spring BP session before league play started. Can't be 100% sure. Most likely was an old game ball which would have been an ASA certified 44/375. Unlike the 52/300 I believe the 44/375 are more dangerous in the colder weather (and also more dangerous to senior bats).
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