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Online now: 5 members: 15smokey, Marcos Rodriguez, Rangview85, TABLE SETTER 11, dawg888; 78 anonymousDiscussion: Dead ball ground rule double situation.
| Posted | Discussion |
| March 22, 2018 baseballbill 137 posts | Dead ball ground rule double situation. Umpire ruled dead ball ground rule double. Batter stopped at first base and courtesy runner went to second base. Is the batter out for not touching second base before the courtesy runner ????? |
| March 22, 2018 SSUSA Staff 3490 posts | This case should probably let common sense (which isn't all that common) prevail! ... Your hypothetical states that the umpire ruled a "dead ball ground rule double" ... As such, the umpire has already awarded second base to the batter and we see no logical reason to impose an additional requirement compelling the batter to also trot out to second before doing a U-turn and heading back to the dugout ... |
| March 22, 2018 baseballbill 137 posts | Thanks, That exactly what the umpire ruled. |
| March 22, 2018 DaveDowell Men's 70 4315 posts | baseballbill ... There's a bit of a (meritorious) dissenting opinion out there that you should maybe keep in mind ... It's always a good idea for everyone involved to touch all bases that are awarded in any dead-ball situation ... Change your facts just a bit, for example, to make this the GRD that scores the 5th run of the at-bat from third base on the play ... The ˝-inning doesn't technically end until all runners have legally acquired the base(s) they were awarded ... You COULD have a differing ruling in that case! ... |
| March 22, 2018 marcster13 102 posts | Always amazes me that guys will take any shortcut they can. Aren't we all out there for some sort of exercise too? As a pinch runner for that guy I'd hold some resentment towards him. Just like when a guy hits one off the wall in the gap but basically jogs to first instead of hustling to 2nd because he knows ahead of time he can have a runner. Makes the pinch runner run that extra distance for him. |
| March 22, 2018 smitty63 4 posts | wow, Just when I thought i was starting to figure out what a runner had to do in senior softball?? If a batter is awarded 1st base on a walk he has to acquire the bag before getting a courtesy runner or he will be called out when the C/R touches the bag. Why doesn't a batter-runner awarded 2nd have to touch both 1st and 2nd? |
| March 24, 2018 B.J. 1106 posts | Dave's 2nd answer is the one I would go with.. A batter that has been awarded 2nd base has to finish his running responsibilities before asking for a C/R.. if for some reason he gets to 1st and yells out I have a C/R going in for me.. as soon as the C/R touches the bag he should be called out |
| March 25, 2018 stick8 1991 posts | Baseball bill was this in a house league or a sanctioned ssusa tournament? In a house league you might be able to do that. In a sanctioned tournament I believe I the runner is responsible for touching the base(s) awarded. Had a similar situation occur in a tournament several years ago. Bases loaded walk. Batter runner was jogging to first and suddenly went down due to leg cramps. Our pitcher and one of his teammates helped him up and helped him touch first base. He then went out of the game. |
| March 25, 2018 B.J. 1106 posts | stick8 on your situation a few years ago.. Just so you know for in the future a runner cannot be assisted by a coach or another player.. unless it is a trailing runner who could help him up but not pass him in doing so |
| March 25, 2018 txnighttrain 120 posts | First line of Rule 8.4(1) "Each batter must reach first base without the aid of a courtesy runner." Since ball is dead, and based on this rule and the the use of a CR, as long as the batter made it to first, a CR could take over. |
| March 26, 2018 stick8 1991 posts | BJ, as always you are correct on that. I was playing middle in a 5 man at the time and thought that very thing. |
| March 27, 2018 BillC48 16 posts | Similar situation - Batter hits the ball over the fence for a home run. Although we allow the runner to touch first and go into the dugout, this particular runner wanted to jog around the bases. As he approached home, he almost ran to home plate rather than the scoring line. If he had actually touched home plate or the batters box would he be out or does the home run count regardless? |
| March 28, 2018 B.J. 1106 posts | SSUSA has hit and sit with no requirement to touch 1st base.. there is no exception in the rule for a runner who jogs around the bases.. it's a dead ball situation so I would not call him out.. most likely he is a batter who has never cleared the fences before and is :) enjoying his hit |
| March 28, 2018 DaveDowell Men's 70 4315 posts | B.J. ... While I agree with you conceptually, the "hit-and-sit" concept by rule applies only to an over the fence home run or a four-base-award ... |
| March 28, 2018 fennellwg Men's 60 97 posts | My condolences Dave D. This is probably the third time in as many days that you have offered an objective , rational interpretation of the rule book. Yet far too often it seems there are those that wish to dissect and parce every word until they reach some imagined intent of the rule or outcome they may feel had been unfairly denied. Perhaps I have exaggerated a bit, but it seems we are spending more time “litigating” the game instead of playing it. Just a thought bill |
| March 28, 2018 DaveDowell Men's 70 4315 posts | Thanks Bill ... It's that time of the year when there's not enough time spent on the fields and too much time spent at the keyboard playing "stump the ump" ... The initial hypothetical fact pattern usually gets tweaked an inch at a time until the author hopes to get a "tipping point" away from the initial ruling ... It's just part of the annual cyclical message board process ... No worries here! ... |
| March 28, 2018 baseballbill 137 posts | Dave: You said it earlier in the message: COMMON SENSE should prevail !!!! |
| March 28, 2018 stick8 1991 posts | BillC48, if this scenario was in an ssusa tournament no penalty. Ssusa and most other associations have the hit and sit rule on over the fence home runs. Ball is dead. As BJ stated it would probably be a case of someone enjoying a homer they normally don't hit. I'm still seeking my first one!! 😀 |
| April 21, 2018 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | Dave Dowell A homerun is the only four base award. How are you using the word "or"? As the definition of a homerun OR is there another four base award we don't know about. Actually there isn't a such a thing as a ground rule double. It really should be defined as a rulebook double........as it states in the rulebook........batter and runners by rule are awarded two bases from their last legally acquired base at the time the ball goes dead. Ground rules are what pertains to a certain field. |
| April 21, 2018 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | Sorry, left this out. In this situation, I maintain the batter should have to touch the base he is awarded before the courtesy runner replaces the B/R. |
| April 21, 2018 B.J. 1106 posts | Wayne.. 8.4(7) • FOUR-BASE AWARD Any fair ball touched by a player on either side of the fence that clears or has cleared the fence in fair territory before touching the ground will be a "four-base award," and will not be included in the total over-the-fence home run count. NOTE: The batter may return directly to the dugout and all other runners may return directly to the dugout. EFFECT: The concept known as “hit and sit” is permitted.this is a |
| April 21, 2018 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | B.J. ~ A 440 ft. moonshot over the fence is also a four base award as the ball is dead. Your scenario is still a homerun for all practical purposes even if it doesn't account against the team total. I am familair with hit and sit as per the homerun rule.......but I maintain all runners should have to legally touch their base on what was earlier described as a "ground rule double". Say a batter stands and admires his work at the plate, but alas the ball doesn't go over the fence and instead rolls under it. Do you allow the batter to cut across the diamond from home to second without touching first. |
| April 21, 2018 B.J. 1106 posts | Wayne, you asked if there was another 4 base award that you didn't know of so I posted it.. as far as a runner finishing their obligation for running bases.. I agree with you a B/R should advance to the base awarded before getting a C/R or be called out as soon as the C/R touches the bag |
| April 24, 2018 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | B.J. ~ you can't award four bases without it being a HR even if it doesn't count against a teams homerun count. You just can't. For hit and sit purposes, it qualifies as a HR. |
| April 25, 2018 B.J. 1106 posts | wayne.. yes you can and here is a example.. a fly ball hit to the warning track but about 3 feet short of the fence.. the fielder misplays the ball and it hits off the top of his glove and then goes over the fence.. (or the fielder did a Jose Canseco and hit off his head) the ball definitely should have been caught ..this would be a error on the fielder and a 4 base award |
| April 25, 2018 k man Men's 65 326 posts | This one happened in our tournament game in VA Beach last week. 5th run (the last batter in the lineup) was on 3rd with 1 out, top of the 6th. I told the umpire that I wanted to walk the next 2 batter ( 1 and 2 in the order) The umpire directed them to take the appropriate base. When the ball was in play, one of my fielders told the field umpire the runner on 2nd never went to 1st base and he called him out. I was at first as confused as anyone. The 2 umpires conferred and the inning continued as the home plate umpire had told him to go directly to the bag. I had no problem with the way it was handled. |
| April 25, 2018 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | Technically, you have to wait until the first batter being walked has reached 1B before you are allowed to walk the next batter intentionally. Also, intentional walks aren't a dead ball. Ball shouldn't have been made live to begin with. Here I say everyone got some valuable experience. Experience is often a mistake you don't make twice, hopefully. You're right for the most part k man.........play on, McDuff. |
| April 25, 2018 SSUSA Staff 3490 posts | §8.2 • BATTER BECOMES A BATTER-RUNNER A. ... B. When four pitched balls have been called by the umpire. The batter-runner is awarded one base without liability to be put out. EFFECT: The ball is dead and runners may not advance unless forced. If the pitcher desires to intentionally walk a batter, he may do so by notifying the plate umpire who shall award the batter first base. If two batters are to be walked intentionally, the second intentional walk may not be administered until the first batter reaches first base. NOTE: If the umpire mistakenly allows two walks at one time and the first batter fails to touch first base, no appeal will be honored on the first batter, because an intentional walk constitutes a pitch to the succeeding batter that nullifies any appeal. |
| April 25, 2018 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | I can see the ball being dead in slow pitch due to the no steal rule and the ball doesn't really become live until it is put into play. Side question for slow pitch. Does the batter have to take their place in the batter's box before giving the intentional walk? And is that what makes the ball live again? I forgot to add that the defense loses their right to appeal after the second intentional walk is given as that constitutes a pitch. |
| April 26, 2018 k man Men's 65 326 posts | BTW, in our game having the 1st intentional runner called out would have ruined my plan to get through the top of their lineup. So instead of having their #3 batter leadoff the open 7th inning, they had their #5 batter leadoff and it changed the whole complexion of the open inning. I have to now go back and scold my SS for even challenging the 1st runner. lol |
| April 26, 2018 stick8 1991 posts | Wayne37, I’m not sure about ssusa but in usssa if an outfielder has a fly ball hit his glove and go over the fence we call it a 4 base error. Up until last year the batter runner and any runners on base were required to run it out. Now it’s hit and sit. And it doesn’t count toward the home run total. As to your question, technically a batter has to be in the box to receive the intentional walk. K man, in the situation you described in Virginia Beach, telling Player A to go directly to second is wrong so that ump can’t call him out on appeal for missing first (if he did indeed tell him to go directly to second). Even if the umpire didn’t tell him that, player A still wouldn’t be out. That’s because player B went to first. Once that happens that is considered a pitch and you lose your appeal on player A. |
