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Online now: 5 members: Dick6, SSKurt, TABLE SETTER 11, Z Man, joker25; 85 anonymousDiscussion: Runner's right to the base
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| April 21, 2018 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | Runner's right to the base This happened a few weeks ago. There was a runner on 3B. The batter hit a pop-up to the 3B right at the base. The runner stood on the bag, which he has a right to do, but didn't move to allow the fielder the opportunity to catch the ball. He could have easily stepped into foul territory and kept one foot safely on the base. This caused a collision and for the ball to be dropped. They brought out an OBR rulebook. Their rules says that if the runner doesn't intentionally interferes with the fielder, the runner isn't out. My contention per the OBR is that by failing to give the fielder a right of way to catch the ball and safely maintain contact with the base.........the runner has interfered.....and runner and hitter should have both been out with less than two outs. I know how the rule is stated in the OBR as I umped baseball for many years. It could use some clarification somewhere in a casebook at least which I can't find. My contention is that the runner intentionally interfered by not allowing the fielder to make a catch. |
| April 21, 2018 B.J. 1106 posts | Wayne, the runner on the bag does not have to move to get out of the fielders way, but he also may not shift his position to get into the fielders way.. this would be a judgement call as to how the umpire sees the play.. and trust me the offense always sees it different than the defense |
| April 21, 2018 DCPete 409 posts | Your "contention" is entirely incorrect; try looking up the word "intentionally" and you'll see it implies a deliberate act or intent none of which is the case in this example. If your contention was accurate the 3B could just collide with the runner at every opportunity to get the umpire to call 1 or 2 cheap, undeserved outs every time. Completely ridiculous . . . |
| April 21, 2018 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | DC Pete Apparently you don't have any judgment capabilities. Interference doesn't have to be intentional either. Look it up. If an umpire cant make the distinction if a fielder is trying to create a collision or the runner interfered by not allowing the fielder to make the catch, the umpire might need some special training. In the scenario, the runner could have very easily avoided contact with the fielder and still held the base as the ball was in fair territory. If the ball hit him before the fielder touched it, the runner standing in fair territory is out. Please cite a rule number or casebook number to back up your claim. Until then your "contention" is merely opinion. |
| April 21, 2018 B.J. 1106 posts | Wayne, in your original scenario you say that the runner was standing on the bag.. again as long as he stood still and didn't move into the fielders path in my JUDGEMENT it would not be interference.. and what happens if he moves into foul territory and the ball drifts back in that direction and the fielder bumps into him is he still out for interference?? |
| April 22, 2018 DCPete 409 posts | Ok Wayne how about SSUSA Rule 8.2 C.1 - "If the Runner is hit with a fair batted ball while touching a base, he is NOT Out" Is this clear enough for you??? |
| April 22, 2018 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | DCPete, I assume you mean 8.2(1)C which reads: If the batter-runner and all runners have not advanced at least one base, the manager does not have the option to take the result of the play or accept the obstruction. The batter-runner will be awarded first base and advancing all other runners only if forced. That's now even close as to what the discussion is about. I am now baffled amongst all get out. I just can't seem to locate an rule unless in under U-Trip or ASA. |
| April 22, 2018 DCPete 409 posts | Wayne, have no idea what you're talking about; here's the phrase from the SSUSA Rules located on this site: C. When he bats a fair ball even though it strikes another playe r, umpire or their attached clothing or equipment. 1. If the runner is hit with a fair batted ball while touching a base, he is not out. |
| April 23, 2018 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | ...........and HENCE the keys words C. WHEN HE (BATTER) HITS A FAIR BALL EVEN THOUGH IT [STRIKES ANOTHER PLAYER, UMPIRE OR THEIR ATTACHED CLOTHING OR EQUIPMENT]. I am talking about a runner on a base interfering with a fielder's ability to make a catch. What I'm saying is THE RUNNER FAILED TO GIVE THE FIELDER THE OPPORTUNITY TO MAKE THE CATCH. HE COULD HAVE EASILY HELD THE BAG AND ALLOWED THE CATCH [OR ATTEMPT]. SIMPLE AS THAT. You're looking under BATTER BECOMES A BATTER-RUNNER! |
| April 23, 2018 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | DEFINITIONS: 1.45 INTERFERENCE. Interference is the act of an offensive player or team member that impedes or confuses the defensive player attempting to execute a play. A base runner MUST avoid a fielder making a play. 1.57 RUNNER. A runner is an offensive player who has reached first base and has not yet been put out. 1.49 OFFENSIVE TEAM. The offensive team is the team at bat. |
| April 23, 2018 B.J. 1106 posts | Wayne, AGAIN the base is a "safe haven" for the runner and he does not have to move out of the way of a fielder attempting to catch a pop up.. what he can't do is shift his body in an attempt to bump the fielder or block him.. this is not a black and white rule book call it is a JUDGEMENT CALL by the umpire also you never answered my question.. what happens if the runner moved into foul territory and the ball drifts back in that direction and the fielder bumps into him is he still out for interference?? |
| April 23, 2018 DCPete 409 posts | Come on Wayne, a runner standing on a base is NOT Impeding or Confusing a defensive player. How "far" do you think a runner on a base can move to avoid the fielder and still hold his base so he doesn't get doubled up & like BJ asks how is the runner supposed to know exactly where to "move" so he doesn't confuse the fielder. This is just a ridiculous scenario you propose and yet another example of people on this board wanting the umpires to give them a cheap out instead of actually getting the batters & runners out by their own defensive ability. Surprised you don't "contend" the runner on 1st should also be declared out so you can get a cheap, undeserved triple play. |
| April 24, 2018 grayhitter59 Men's 60 345 posts | So let me get this straight, you want the runner who is on the bag to move, so the fielder can make a play on a pop up. Ok, so he moves off the bag, the fielder catches the ball and proceed to tag him, because he is off the bag. Double play? I don't think so. The runner does not have to move, nor shall he move in the direction off the ball. Just stay on the bag. The umpire shall make the call, not the players. If the runner simply stays put, there is no obstruction or interference. Live ball, defense make a play. |
| April 24, 2018 The Screamer5 Men's 60 69 posts | BJ is spot on. The runner does not have to give up his legal position on the bag for a fielder to make a play on the ball. Its totally the umpire's judgement as to whether or not the runner intentionally interferes with the fielder's play on the ball...whether he is on the bag or not. I have had players (on the bag) shift or move in a manner that I considered an intentional, deliberate attempt to impede the fielder's play on a pop up in the infield and I made the call of interference. Of course, my call didn't go over well with team who was batting. |
| April 24, 2018 DaveDowell Men's 70 4317 posts | TS5 ... There simply are some plays where, by definition, the umpire's approval rating is going to be exactly 50%, no more, no less ... This is one of them ... You and B.J. have it stated correctly (as do a few others) ... |
| April 24, 2018 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | And why no rule citation? Please provide that and maybe we can get someplace. I've never said the runner had to GIVE UP HIS BAG!. I've said a little step to one side and the fielder would have had ample opportunity to give the F5 a chance to catch the ball and HOLD THE BASE! By failing to do so, he INTERFERED! I cited a OBR rule. There seems to be no rule provided by the SSUSA rulebook that states, the base is a safe haven and runner doesn't have to give up the base to the fielder. I gave the only citation I could find to the situation in the defintions part of the book. Seeing as how the ball landed at least a foot in fair ground, I'm ajudging the runner with very little effort, could have avoided contact with the fielder. People need to stop applying some different spin to the aforementioned play. This a JUDGMENT call by the umpire. In my JUDGMENT the runner committed interference. I am not a wannabe umpire. I have umpired baseball traditionally at the best levels of high school and select ball, usually the best high school and college players in my area. I have even worked community college baseball and fastpitch softball. Thus, I am no stranger to the world of officiating. I've had coaches and players question my judgment, but not my lack of rule knowledge. I do also realize, often times a 50/50 chance of making people happy is a risk, but one I've never given that much thought to. I, as an umpire, am not going to bail out the offense just because of where the ball was hit. If you have a runner on 3B, don't hit it there! I don't know where you guys stand when you're on 3B, but I stand with my left foot on the base and the rest of my body in foul territory so as not to interfere with a batted ball in fair territory. Thanks for all the contributions, even DC Pete's failed rendering of when a batter/runner is not out. We are talking about a runner being out, Pete!!!!! Anyway it should say defensive player, not player. I'll leave the big games to all of you sofa jockies. Enjoy all those big games from in front of you computer screeen. Two things you can't buy on the Internet are experience and good judgment. And to answer your question B.J. I probably wouldn't have the runner out if they had done what was required, moving in a legal effort to avoid contact. My scenario didn't have that to begin with. Just provide some ruling in the SSUSA rulebook. All opinions are welcome, even the ones that are wrong. |
| April 25, 2018 lb16 Men's 60 196 posts | Wayne 37, why don't you cite the rule that says runner has to while not leaving bag and keep one foot on bag shift to some spot on the bag so fielder can make play on ball. Good luck! |
| April 25, 2018 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | In reply to your post, 1b16, I posted the definition of interference from the SSUSA rulebook. It reads as such: DEFINITIONS: 1.45 INTERFERENCE. Interference is the act of an offensive player or team member that impedes or confuses the defensive player attempting to execute a play. A base runner MUST avoid a fielder making a play. I did send an email to my former high school assignor. His take was the fielder always has the right of way when fielding a batted ball, fair or foul. No attempt to avoid contact equals interference. Bang them both out unless two outs and then only the batter is out. And to answer other scenarios up the thread. You cannot get a triple play on this. Interference is an immediate dead ball. Never said the runner had to step off the base, just allow the fielder the attempt at a play. The fielder goes where the ball takes them. Runner needs to make an effort to avoid contact. Whether they hold the base or not is their decision. It has nothing to do with intent. If the runner is making a valid attempt to avoid contact and still maintain the bag, I would definitely say that was "unintentional". |
| April 25, 2018 lb16 Men's 60 196 posts | Key sentence in rule " A base runner MUST avoid a fielder making a play." Runner is on base, runner has right to base if already occupied it's not that hard to comprehend. It's the same as the runner not being out when standing on bag and hit by batted ball get it now!! Probably not!! |
| April 25, 2018 B.J. 1106 posts | Wayne, hopefully this will show you that the runner doesn't have to move.. below is a ruling from the ASA RULES SUPPLEMENT.. ASA is the go to rule book when SSUSA does not have an explanation to a rule.. it tells that a "RUNNER WHO IS IN THE ACT OF RUNNING" must vacate ant space needed by a fielder to make a play on a batted ball, "UNLESS" the runner has contact with a legally occupied base when the hindrance occurs. In this case, the runner should not be called out unless the hindrance is intentional. 33. INTERFERENCE. c) A runner could be standing on a base and a defensive player bumps the runner while watching the flight of the ball. If the defensive player fails to make a catch on a ball that could have been caught, it is the umpire’s judgment whether or not interference should be called. The rule provides that a runner must vacate any space needed by a fielder to make a play on a batted ball, unless the runner has contact with a legally occupied base when the hindrance occurs. In this case, the runner should not be called out unless the hindrance is intentional. |
| April 26, 2018 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | Dearest lb16, Batted ball hits runner on base, the runner is out if the they are hit when the ball is in fair territory. But you knew that already. Probably not!!!! B.J. ~ I understand what you are saying, however in the situation in the game I referenced. the fielder, runner and ball came together all in one nanosecond. As to where the ball was when all this happened, it was over fair territory just inside of the left of the base. By never moving at all, I would say the intent was there whether the runner knew it or not. Vacate space to me here means, vacate the space and at the same time remain in contact with the bag. In my judgment, the runner has interfered by not even making an attempt to move when they could have easily done so. Sometimes you just have to umpire. |
| April 26, 2018 B.J. 1106 posts | Wayne, As far as having to umpire I have been umpiring senior softball for over 15yrs and have been putting on umpire clinics for positioning for over 10 yrs..you asked many times to have a rule cited I gave you the rule and you still refuse to accept the fact that in this scenario you are wrong.. and your last post (Batted ball hits runner on base, the runner is out if the they are hit when the ball is in fair territory) that is wrong also... 8.2 • BATTER BECOMES A BATTER-RUNNER.. C. When he bats a fair ball even though it strikes another player, umpire or their attached clothing or equipment. 1. If the runner is hit with a fair batted ball while touching a base, he is not out. EFFECT: The ball is live or dead depending on the position of the fielder closest to the ball. If the closest defensive player is in front of the base runner hit by the ball, the ball remains live. However, after the runner in contact with the base is hit by the batted ball, it shall be the same as hitting the ground. Since the ball remains live, the defense is free to make whatever plays are available. If the defensive player is behind the base runner, the ball is ruled dead, the hitter is awarded a base hit and runners are advanced only if forced to advance. |
| April 26, 2018 DCPete 409 posts | Sorry Wayne but your "judgment" doesn't have priority over the actual rules. Not to mention the complete lack of any common sense on your part; if I'm the Runner my priority is to watch the ball, not to take my eye off the ball so I can look for any colliding fielders. If the ball ends up being caught I have to make sure I'm holding the base so I don't risk getting doubled up and if the ball lands fair and rolls away I have to determine if I can try and score. It's kind of the very 1st thing you're ever taught: "keep your eye on the ball". |
| April 26, 2018 yerwombat Men's 60 76 posts | It sounds like the umpire didn't see any interference |
| April 26, 2018 lb16 Men's 60 196 posts | Wayne 37- B.J. just cited rule that applies to this situation, and you still can't accept correct ruling in this situation. And did you just say that runner on bag hit by batted ball is out? No wonder this conversation has drug on please tell me you don't get paid to umpire!! |
| April 26, 2018 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | hey wayne....please tell me where that runner should stand on the pop-up....he can't leave the base b/c of the potential to be doubled up on the pop-up....so tell me where is his safe haven at.....its on the damn base...thats where..... |
| April 26, 2018 lb16 Men's 60 196 posts | mad dog- Your'e wasting your time with him on this one. For some reason he thinks runner should while keeping one foot on bag to some how move around so as fielder can make a play or it's interference on runner. The dumbest s--t I have heard from a supposed "umpire". Well that was until he said runner was out if standing on bag and was hit by batted ball! |
| April 26, 2018 stick8 1991 posts | Wayne37, this is a judgement call. The runner at third, as BJ correctly points out, has every right to stand on the base. As long as he doesn’t Intentionally move or flail around to interfere with the third baseman I have nothing. |
| April 27, 2018 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | Here is the thing. Baseball rules are often worded poorly. This one of them. Some of you are sure that just standing on the base and not moving.........IS NOT INTERFENCE BY THE RUNNER WHEN CONTACT IS MADE.............UH-HUH!!!! Hence............It says the if the interefence isn't INTENTIONAL WHILE IN CONTACT WHILE IN CONTACT WITH THE BASE!!!!! Any and every time a runner contacts a fielder is INTERFERENCE...........IT DOESN'T MATTER IF THE RUNNER IS TOUCHING A BASE...........it is the umpire's JUDGMENT if the runner interfered..........BUT ONLY IN THIS INSTANCE. All bets are off expect in this rare scenario. The base is not a "safe haven". The runner can still keep a foot, hand or whatever you people want to come up with and maintain contact with the base. a base and avoid contact. I've never said If you are taught to "keep your eye on the ball", perhaps you might want to move when the ball is coming at you.......because that is where the fielder is going. If you can't without keeping contact with the base, you are more than a likely paraplebic or a three toe sloth. And yes, standing like a statue and not allowing the fielder to catch the ball is INTERFERENCE. He doesn't move to my satisfaction, he is going to be called OUT! I don't need to know when a batter/runner becomes a runner either. Not relevant to the conversation anyway. And lb16, you apparently don't know that if a runner is struck with a batted ball while on a base, the runner is OUT unless the ball and runner are over foul territory when struck...moron I would suggest if you can, acquire a copy of Official Baseball Rules-Annotated. I have one and it is put away in a safe deposit box about 2 1/2 hours away. In that book former AL MLB umpire Jim Evans throughly points out after great research, errors in the rules of baseball as written. At the time of the publication, there were 237 errors and that was over 30 years ago. I believe with additional digging over the years, he got up to 275. Another good manual to have is the Jaksa/Roder manual. It is written and kept currant by Chris Jaksa and Rick Roder who are former professional umpires. Thank you for your time and partronage |
| April 27, 2018 AJC Men's 60 218 posts | Wayne, with all due respect, both of your rule interpretations in the above post are wrong. You do not have to move while keeping contact with bag to allow a fielder catch a pop up. You can absolutely as you put it ' stand like a statue 'on the bag without having to try and get of the way. What you cannot do is move in any manner which would impede the fielder from making a play on the ball. Your other statement is also false. A player who is standing on 3rd and is hit by a line drive is not out. |
| April 28, 2018 B.J. 1106 posts | Dave, PLEASE, it's time to close this post.. nothing more can be said. |
| April 28, 2018 yerwombat Men's 60 76 posts | Your premise that the baseruuner is causing contact is flawed. The fielder is the moving object causing a collision. |
| April 28, 2018 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | You don't have to close it, Dave. Others might want to chime in. I simply have the runner impeding the fielder by not moving while in contact with the base. I'm not a mind reader, so I as the umpire, am going to make his mind up for him. I don't why some can't see that yes there is a small window where the runner can move, but in that small window, especially where the ball was coming down a foot or more in fair territory, the runner could have VERY EASILY afforded the fielder the opportunity to catch the ball. My judgment, my call and one I can live with. |
| April 28, 2018 stick8 1991 posts | Wayne37, judgement is judgement and only you as the umpire have to determine that. But the play as you described cannot be accurately called on this board unless one is actually there witnessing it. I won’t say you are incorrect but if I’m that runner on third I’m holding the bag and will not move. |
| April 28, 2018 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | It is certainly safe to say some people don't mind getting trampled on and add the risk of injury to themselves as a runner or fielder. Me, I'm getting out of the way and maintaining contact with base. |
| April 28, 2018 stick8 1991 posts | Wayne that’s fine if you get out of the way and stay on the bag. Most players would probably do that. But getting trampled on wasn’t part of the discussion. It was a runner on the base not moving while a fielder is attempting to catch a pop up right at that runner. As BJ pointed out and I agree with, if that runner doesn’t move and thus doesn’t interfere with the fielder I have nothing. |
| April 28, 2018 DaveDowell Men's 70 4317 posts | Wayne 37 ... B.J. and stick8 are correct ... Your entire argument falls apart with the phrase "..so I as the umpire, am going to make his mind up for him..", presumably to accommodate the fielder ... You have no umpire's right to impose an obligation on the runner to get out of the way when no such obligation is mandated or even present by rule ... Standing tall and motionless on the bag is not an act of interference and your personal preference that he move to create space is an abuse of your umpire's judgment ... That may be your call every time as an umpire, but overruling you would be my call as a Tournament Director every time, too ... I would not be reversing you on a judgment call but, rather, as a misapplication of a non-existent rule ... |
| April 29, 2018 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | Dave and others......where does it state SPECIFICALLY what is interference in the rule? It says in the umpire's judgment. Anyone ever heard of the term, deliberant indifference. It means for the most part, failure to do nothing results in something. And not something good either. Here I have a case of deliberant indifference. How am I misapplying a rule when nowhere does the rule give a definition of what or what isn't interference? Umpire judgement is what it clearly states. Be it duly noted that if my judgement of interference doesn't necessarily jive with yours, it is still my call to make. I can guarantee you that as TD, you would have to find somebody to replace me for the rest of the tournament. It would behoove the SSUSA rules committee to clean up the language in their ruleset on this one. It basically punishes the defense in the interpretation of some as to what does and doesn't constitute intentional or unintentional. Interference, most of the time is unintentional. I'm not taking the little island in a vast sea away from the defense unless I JUDGE the collision to be unintentional. |
| April 29, 2018 DaveDowell Men's 70 4317 posts | Wayne 37 ... As B.J. was so kind to report earlier, I'm going to give you SPECIFICALLY the information to prove your position on this wrong ... It's from the ASA (aka USA) Rules Supplement, which SSUSA defers to in the absence of specific coverage in our Rulebook, at paragraph 33 ... The [emphasis added] highlight is to re-focus your analysis to the relevant controlling language ... The umpire's judgment in ANY potential interference circumstance is two-fold ... [1] Did an act of interference occur? and [2] Did that act result in a defender being interfered with? ... The mere act of maintaining contact with the bag is NOT an act of interference because it is SPECIFICALLY excluded from being a hindrance, as you can see below ... Conversely, leaning into the defender, waving his arms, etc., could result in an interference call ... Your personal desire to ring up the base runner is based on your incorrect and faulty belief that the runner must vacate the base, or at a minimum engage in a softball version of the floor game "Twister", to assist a defender ... _____________ ASA RULES SUPPLEMENT §33 • INTERFERENCE c) A runner could be standing on a base and a defensive player bumps the runner while watching the flight of the ball. If the defensive player fails to make a catch on a ball that could have been caught, it is the umpire’s judgment whether or not interference should be called. The rule provides that a runner must vacate any space needed by a fielder to make a play on a batted ball, unless the runner has contact with a legally occupied base when the hindrance occurs. In this case, the runner should not be called out unless the hindrance is intentional. _____________ You appear to be another one of the "..gotta have the last word.." guys here ... And that's OK ... Go ahead and take that last word and then we'll be closing this thread ... It's really easy to understand this one if you just read the ASA Supplement carefully ... It's DIRECTLY ON POINT and compelling ... |
| April 30, 2018 mck71 Men's 60 344 posts | Sorry Dave, I have to add this 1 question: Wayne - what happens IF while the runner on 3B leans off the bag in foul territory to AVOID the fielder catching the ball AND the fielder runs into him any way, knocks the runner OFF the base AND catches the ball and tags the runner, what would be your call? I mean I ASSUME that the fielder didn't do it on purpose or did he? :-) I have been umping softball (not baseball) for over 25 yrs, afraid I would agree with BJ (and everyone other than your take on this) every time. I will add that COMMON SENSE has to be something that is applied in your logic Wayne, I won't argue what baseball rules are, just what I would call based on your scenario and the softball rules as stated above. Good luck! |
| April 30, 2018 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | BJ, after having a very long weekend and having a very long week coming up all because of my love of softball, I enjoy your common sense and patience. Some people are just never happy. If anyone ever comes up to me citing baseball rules, I will be happy to show them that this is softball. Utrip had a rule change apparently that I think is pretty crazy. The person hit on the bag in fair territory (still not out as in every other association), but it's apparently now a live ball (dead ball in every other SOFTBALL association that I have been involved with). Really? The guy just got hit with a batted softball, and you want him to run? There is no way that there can be a rule for every little nuance which is why it depends on the situation and why my judgement as an umpire is what is going to determine what happens next. I like to believe that I have a lot of common sense after being involved with this game over half of my life, but some people just want to argue no matter what you tell them. I hope to share an adult beverage and some excellent stories with you some day. |
| April 30, 2018 B.J. 1106 posts | Thx. Nancy I look forward to it |
| April 30, 2018 txnighttrain 120 posts | This is an umpire judgement call. I umpire and rarely has that ever happened. When it did occur, The runner did not move from his original position on the base and that was what I was looking for at that time. The only time this happened when I observed it, the fielder caught the ball anyway. The problem I have is that the verbal part of the interference is not called. I have heard players on the offense calling for the ball as though they are going to catch it or yelling to have the defense throw it to another base. The umpire did nothing even though he acknowledged hearing it. I have called players out twice for verbal interference. This should be addressed, because it happens more times than you may think. |
| April 30, 2018 Omar Khayyam 1357 posts | Here are a few potential scenarios as to why the runner should just stay put on third: 1) runner plays the outfield and cannot accurately estimate where the pop-up is coming down 2) third baseman can see the popup, but the sun angle is slightly different for the base runner so he just ducks and covers his head 3) the wind is swirling and if the base runner moves he might actually step right in front of the third baseman 4) runner assumed popup was going farther and actually has his head turned watching the shortstop and left fielder to see if this is going to be a Texas leaguer with a chance to advance Umpires on here agree (with the exception of Wayne 37) STAY PUT! The best way to avoid being called unintentionally for interference. |
| May 1, 2018 lb16 Men's 60 196 posts | After all has been said and done this Wayne 37 clown still thinks a base runner is out when hit by batted ball while standing on bag. Still can't believe this guy is an umpire!! |
| May 1, 2018 DaveDowell Men's 70 4317 posts | Deafening silence thus far, interrupted only by the occasional chirp of the crickets ... |
| May 1, 2018 B.J. 1106 posts | chirp.. |
