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Discussion: Was The ump

Posted Discussion
June 7, 2018
HJ
Men's 70
481 posts
Was The ump
Our first baseman is very smart and a certified ump. No outs, men on 1st and 2nd and easy popup to first baseman. Ump correctly calls IF. First baseman gets under ball and intentionally lets it drop. He hope a runner will take the bait and try to advance.

No one moves. Ump goes to first baseman and gives him a formal warning that if he ever tries that again he will throw him out of the game for unsportsman behavior. Is the ump right or wrong or is there a nuanced answer.
June 7, 2018
stattad
Men's 65
222 posts
That sounds ridiculous. I've always thought of it as a strategy move.
June 7, 2018
stick8
1733 posts
That ump had no business warning your first baseman. He was hoping to bait the runners into going. Since the runners didn’t move it obviously didn’t work, but still a good strategy move.
June 8, 2018
bringiton
163 posts
The ump is right i would do the same thing .that's not strategy that's unsportsman.
June 8, 2018
TommyPalmer1210
7 posts
Is it anymore unsportsmanlike the hidden ball trick?
June 8, 2018
stick8
1733 posts
Bringiton, on what grounds would you consider that to be unsportsman?
June 8, 2018
KP&R
22 posts
I have been a certified umpire for 22 years this Spring. If the Umpire made the correct 'infield-fly' call, then the batter was automatically out and the runners are entitled to advance AT THEIR OWN RISK. The dropped ball is totally irrelevant at that point where the umpire makes the infeld-fly-out call.

It is the responsibility of the players to know the rules and to play heads up ball. I see nothing unsportsmanlike about this situation.
June 8, 2018
B.J.
660 posts
The 1st baseman did nothing wrong.. play on
June 9, 2018
Benji4
212 posts
As a middle infielder if you don't run out of the box with a runner on first I will let a fly ball in the infield drop every time to complete a double play. If the batter doesn't like it he can run to first so I don't do it. That's called being smart and trying to win.

I once did that same thing and the umpire called time and called an automatic out saying that I was required to catch all fly balls. I said I didn't touch it and he said it doesn't matter the rule book says you must catch all fly balls. I told the umpire he was the biggest DUMBSHIT in the world and to show me in the rule book where it says I am required by rule to catch every fly ball. He stopped the game pulled out his rule book and read it for 10 minutes. He didn't change the call but everyone in the game and watching knew he was a DUMBSHIT.....

If the defense is smarter than the offense don't get pissed just run everything out.....
June 9, 2018
stick8
1733 posts
Benji4,I can’t believe an umpire would say that!
Was he drunk or high?
That’s unreal
June 9, 2018
B.J.
660 posts
lol... maybe the umpire said it because it's a rule


1.37 • INTENTIONALLY DROPPED FLY BALL
If a fielder intentionally drops, or lets drop, a fair fly ball, including a line drive, that can be caught by an infielder with ordinary effort with first base only, or first base and any other base(s), with less than two outs, only one recorded out may be made on the play and the ball is dead. This is an umpire's judgment call.
June 9, 2018
chico senior
Men's 60
121 posts
Looks like Benyi4 owes someone an apology! B.J. Maybe 1st baseman did do something wrong.
June 9, 2018
k man
Men's 65
277 posts
BJ, I'm assuming this is only an SSUSA rule, so maybe HJ's circumstance referred to a situation outside of SSUSA.

Similar circumstance in our 60+ league which goes by USSSA rules.
Men on 1st and 2nd 1 out.
Humpback liner hit to 3rd base
As it appears, he is ready to catch the ball, he reverses his glove, lets it hit the back of the glove, fall to the ground, picks it up and they easily turn the inning ending double play.
We argued, because in the spirit of the rule, the intent is to protect the runners and obviously it did not which is why I like the 1.37 Rule SSUSA has.

Meanwhile back to the original umpire, we've all had that 1 umpire who feels he must make a call that makes him part of the game. To all the other umpires who just hustle, call a good game and are basically invisible: Good Job guys!
June 9, 2018
B.J.
660 posts
I know it's the same in ASA and I think ISA also..
June 9, 2018
B.J.
660 posts
Chico..(Maybe 1st baseman did do something wrong)

the difference between the 2 rules is that with a IF call as in OP it's a live ball and sometimes the fielder does not catch the ball.. hoping that the runner will make a mistake and think he has to run.. with the intentionally dropped ball it is a dead ball batter is out if the fielder just lets it fall to the ground to try to double up a runner
June 9, 2018
chico senior
Men's 60
121 posts
B.J. - Having trouble following your post. What is OP? Also I don’t understand the last part of your post. Sorry!
June 9, 2018
B.J.
660 posts
Chico no problem.. OP is original post.. I thought in your post you were asking if maybe the 1st baseman did something wrong.. so I was explaining the difference between the 2 rules and that he did was legal
June 9, 2018
HJ
Men's 70
481 posts
Thanks to all. Just to complicate things I checked my 2016 ASA rules. Pursuant to rule 2. K, there is specific language which says that IF takes precedence over the intentionally dropped ball, so we are back to IF as in original post. I didn't find the SSUSA intentional dropped ball provision addressing this so it is unclear to me under SSUSA what happens if IF called and intentionally dropped is called. The difference is that under SSUSA dropped ball the play is dead but under IF runners can run at own risk. ????????
June 10, 2018
B.J.
660 posts
HJ.. I cant find in SSUSA where it states that an IF call takes precedence over a intentionally dropped ball.. but we have always gone to ASA for a ruling when it is not specified in SSUSA.. I hope Dave chimes in here.. because I think the wording can be confusing on the IDB call

1.37 • INTENTIONALLY DROPPED FLY BALL
If a fielder intentionally drops, or lets drop, a fair fly ball, including a line drive, that can be caught by an infielder with ordinary effort with first base only, or first base and any other base(s), with less than two outs, only one recorded out may be made on the play and the ball is dead. This is an umpire's judgment call.

Dave.. why does rule say ( or first base and any other BASE(S), with less than two outs) the any other base(s) should only be third?? otherwise it would be an IF call
June 10, 2018
stick8
1733 posts
Bottom line here: if you don’t hear the ump call “infield fly, batters out”, you better run it out!!
June 10, 2018
TimMcElroy
634 posts
An intentionally dropped ball scenario would occur in any force situation with less than 2 outs-

Runner on 1b
Runner on 1b & 2b
Runner on 1b, 2b & 3b
Runner on 1b & 3b

The intent is to prevent a defender from intentionally dropping (or letting drop) a fly ball, soft line drive, etc in order to confuse a runner that would normally have frozen for the purposes of turning a double play.

If the umpire sees this, he should call / signal DEAD BALL. The batter is out and all runners return to the last base occupied at the time of the pitch.

An experienced umpire knows an intentionally dropped when he sees one and will call it.



June 10, 2018
B.J.
660 posts
Tim.. scenario.. bases loaded less than 2 outs batter hits a pop up in the infield and fielder is camped under it.. umpire calls IF and then the fielder lets the ball drop to the ground isn't this still the batter is out but the ball is live and runners can advance at their own risk because of the IF call?

or are you saying that the call then changes to IDB dead ball batter out??

I always thought the IDB call was basically to protect the runner at 1st or 1st and 3rd from a fielder intentionally dropping a ball and then turning a double play




June 10, 2018
TimMcElroy
634 posts
The batter is out on an infield fly call and on an intentional drop.

Here is the difference- an infield fly (live ball) COULD result in a double play if a runner tried to advance to the next base.

An intentional drop (dead ball) COULD NOT result in a double play because the runners, by rule are prohibited from advancing to the next base.



To answer your question- Once I've declared an infield fly, that is the call. I'm not changing it in the middle of the play.
June 10, 2018
B.J.
660 posts
Tim, yes I agree it's an IF call and should stay that way..

but above you posted the different ways that you can make a IDB call.. here were 2 of them.. you said runners on 1st and 2nd or bases loaded with less that 2 outs.. I don't understand how could you call IDB in those situations when an IF should be called? No where can I find in SSUSA rules that says that an IF call takes precedence over a IDB ... In ASA it does explain that

that is why I questioned the wording of the IDB rule I posted below..

(first base only, or first base and any other BASE(S), with less than two outs)

shouldn't the any other base(s)just be third base??

otherwise it would be an IF call

1.37 • INTENTIONALLY DROPPED FLY BALL
If a fielder intentionally drops, or lets drop, a fair fly ball, including a line drive, that can be caught by an infielder with ordinary effort with first base only, or first base and any other base(s), with less than two outs, only one recorded out may be made on the play and the ball is dead. This is an umpire's judgment call.


June 10, 2018
TimMcElroy
634 posts
Not every fly ball in the infield is an "infield fly"

Situation: Bases loaded, nobody out.

Batter hits a soft line drive, no higher than 6 ft toward the 3rd baseman. An umpire isn't going to invoke the infield fly rule on that. At the same time, the umpire can't sit by and do nothing while a cagy infielder guides that batted ball to the ground, steps on 3rd and goes around the horn for a triple play.

That is a time when you would invoke the intentional drop rule.
June 11, 2018
B.J.
660 posts
Tim.. you are 100% correct on that type of play

but an umpire would never invoke the IDB rule on the same scenario on a pop up in the IF that could be caught with ordinary effort.. again..the point I'm trying to make is the wording of the IDB RULE..

please give me a scenario where IDB would ever be called in the 2 scenarios below that you posted and also that are in the rule book.. I cannot think of any??

Runner on 1b & 2b
Runner on 1b, 2b & 3b
June 11, 2018
TimMcElroy
634 posts
See my last post.

I would invoke the intentional drop rule in the cited example.
June 11, 2018
B.J.
660 posts
Tim, lol.. never mind.. you do not seem to want to discuss the wording of the IDB rule.. yes, I understand you would call it on a line drive.. I'll e-mail Dave thx anyway
June 13, 2018
SS11
41 posts
Tim,
I would argue that when guys are on 1st and 2nd, the IDB rule would be called on a line drive where IF is not called. So if a defensive player intentionally let's it drop and it kicks away and the runner advances, you're going to send him back because of the IDB? Once you call IF, the runners know they are free to stay put regardless of what happens after that.
June 13, 2018
SS11
41 posts
I was referring to a play where IF is called and the defense let's it drop.
July 23, 2018
Wayne 37
Men's 65
671 posts
Runner on 1st. Fielder can let the ball drop. They can not glide the ball to the ground. Dead ball. Batter out. Runner returns to 1st.

If the defense lets the ball drop with out any guidance, if there is a double play made, it is because the batter didn't hustle to 1st.

Infield fly is merely to protect the runners by taking the force off.
July 23, 2018
Wayne 37
Men's 65
671 posts
Tim, an infield fly can be called on a batted ball that only goes 6 ft. high as long as the umpire judges ordinary effort of the ball being caught. I know of no rule that states how high and infield fly has to be.

Outfielders can also catch a ball that can called an infield fly. Ordinary effort are the key words to go by.
July 25, 2018
doker
Men's 60
183 posts
especially using the bats that we do!!! a crushed line drive is not necessarily considered a ball that can be caught with easy effort!!! therefore (in the umpires judgement) MAY OR MAY NOT BE CALLED AN INFIELD FLY!!!!!!!!! CAUGHT OR NOT!!
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