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Online now: 3 members: Flava 21, TABLE SETTER 11, timster49er; 66 anonymousDiscussion: Purpose for allowing base runners to "run thru" or "over run" bases?
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| July 21, 2018 Turbobob Men's 65 71 posts | Purpose for allowing base runners to "run thru" or "over run" bases? Our local 70 plus league, self umpiring, is thinking of allowing base runners running to 2nd or 3rd base, to over run the base without being liable to get tagged out afterwards if they do not attempt to advance to the next base. I haven't seen many specific rules about this and have a few questions for those players that use it in their local leagues. 1. Is the purpose to protect the runner from injury by not stopping suddenly when no defensive player is near the base? Specifically, what is the purpose of allowing the over run? 2. How does the over run work when there is a defensive player on the bag anticipating to make a play? Does the runner have to bypass the bag a little bit (to avoid a collision) and hope the umpire sees that he reached the vicinity of the bag before the ball arrived? If any of you have rules in your league for over runs, run thru, etc. I would appreciate receiving them via email at bj99m@yahoo.com. |
| July 21, 2018 Omar Khayyam 1357 posts | Hello Turbobob, Yes, our league which allows players of all ages over 49, has a run-through policy, and has had one successfully for two decades. Run through was initially established to protect aging knees. The sudden deceleration is hard on arthritic knees and tends to hasten deterioration—ask any hard court tennis player. There is no rule against stopping at the base (and some of the younger tournament players do stop), but most run through. Here are some specifics: 1. In our league, base coaches function as base umpires on plays at first, second, and third. They have excellent sight lines and are able to accurately determine if a player reached or passed a base before the ball arrived. Of course, being teammates, there is a bit of a bias to call the runner safe, but we have learned to laugh about that and live with it. 2. We decided a decade ago to make every base a force out. This avoids the collision potential by trying to tag the runner. If the ball gets to the fielder before the runner and the fielder's foot is on the base, the runner is out. (In the rare cases when a runner realizes he will be out on a non-force play, and tries to retreat, we have an imaginary line on all base paths similar to the one at home, and if crossed, the runner cannot return). 3. It is also not required that the runner touch the base when advancing on a play. Normally if the ball is coming from his right side, he runs past on the left of the base and vice versa. It is easy for the umpire to see if he "touched" or crossed the base. However, if the runner decides to further advance after running through, he must return to touch the base. If the runner plans to take the turn and advance to the next base he must step on the base as in a normal play. The result of these policies has been a great reduction in collisions at the bases as well as a reduction in arguments about whether the player was touched or not before reaching the base (this is still allowed, but usually it is safer and more efficient for the baseman just to step on the base). The infrequent collisions are when both the second baseman and the shortstop converge on the base to take the throw and the runner has to make a choice which way to veer. Of course, this is also true with normal rules. Good luck with your change. Any more questions, just post here. I read the site every day. |
| July 22, 2018 Turbobob Men's 65 71 posts | Omar, specific to #1, I was thinking of physically placing a flat rubber "safety base", orange color, about 3 feet to the right of 2nd base. Running from 1st to 2nd, the base runner will see the orange base to the right of the normal 2nd base, in the same plane as the line of sight the 3rd base coach/umpire sees it. Now the umpire gets a better view of the runner who wants to use the run-thru and determine the call accurately. The runner then has to re-touch the orange bag if he wants to advance at is own risk. As far as a run-thru for 3rd base, I think the umpire can determine this accurately without a safety base there. The call at 2nd is made easier using the safety base. Your other use of the force outs is interesting too. Food for thought. |
| July 23, 2018 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | Some leagues draw lines at 2nd and 3rd like the one used at home. We finally got rid of the lines last week. So glad to see them gone. Too many teams were having a runner from the plate and being able to stretch many base hits into a double because of the run through. Penalizes the defense mostly. Hard to throw out a runner with a virtual head start to the base IMO ~ being slow isn't criteria so that you need a runner from the plate. At the very least back the runner up to the middle of the backstop. |
| July 23, 2018 Omar Khayyam 1357 posts | Turbobob, an interesting idea to use a plate. However, in practice, about 30% of the time the runner from first goes to the LEFT of second to avoid a collision with a throw from right field or the second baseman coming over to cover the bag. In actuality, base calls without a line or a safety base are made rather easily by an alert third base coach. Very close calls, of course, are always controversial with the runner and the fielder disagreeing on who got there first. Wayne37, we solved the fast runner from home taking a second base by limiting the runner to first base only with the exceptions of a home run over the fence or a ball that goes out of play as either a ground rule double or an overthrow on a runner other than the runner to first. So far, we have yet to see a shot over the fence by an injured player who needed a runner from home! lol |
| July 23, 2018 k man Men's 65 326 posts | In our 60+ league, in order to have a runner for the batter from home plate, the batter must have a medical waiver filled out by a doctor so that only those with medical issues can get the runner, not just because one is slow. That runner for the batter must start 5 feet behind the extension of the 3rd base foul. We are in the upper division of our league and all managers have agreed this is still not far enough back so we have basically extended it to 10 feet. Speed advantage still seems to go to the runner, not the fielders! |
| July 23, 2018 Omar Khayyam 1357 posts | Over the years, runners from home have started from 15 feet back, 10 feet back, and even with the third base time. Doesn't matter—advantage still goes to the runner. However, this courtesy is not taken advantage of in our experience, so we don't require a medical validation. We have some batters who only catch or pitch or play first base, and they have a runner every time because of their incapacitated condition—keeps them in the game. Other batters are noticeably injured (cast, limp, big honkin' bruise, etc.) and again, why require a doctor's certificate when it is obvious. We don't allow courtesy runners from home just for players who are slow—only for those who cannot run. |
| July 25, 2018 doker Men's 60 185 posts | OUR 65+ AND 55+ LEAGUES HERE IN Austin use the run thru rule and force out at second and third base...must retouch base run thru to advance on same play....runners are responsible to avoid contact with the fielder on all plays or called out!!! works great and we have two umpires from teams that are playing the next game....we as players live with it Experienced as an umpire or not...we also have a group of directors(positions held for 1-2 years) that get together at the beginning of the year to set up the teams so that the league is fairly competitive thru-out the year...we have four separate schedules so the winners of each Playoff at the end of the year...cost is $90 for approx 70-80 games for each team for the year!!! PRETTY COOL AND FUN EVEN FOR US TOURNEY GUYS!!!! |
| July 25, 2018 doker Men's 60 185 posts | WE ALSO HAVE UNLIMITED RUNNERS(IF HAD NOT ALREADY RUN IN SAME INNING) AND FROM THE PLATE ALSO AS MANY HAVE KNEE PROBLEMS AND CANT RUN.....AN ANYONE CAN PLAY LEAGUE!!! |
| Oct. 24, 2018 wintermutt Men's 60 8 posts | I play in a normal rule league (no run through second etc.) and a run through league. I find it difficult to shift my running strategy between the leagues. Here is my question. When one is running from first to second to third in a run through league and the ball is hit to the outfield, do you run a path inside a line drawn from first to second? And if you do, what happens when you touch second base and continue to third? Do you touch second base with your right foot then curve towards third and try to keep your feet inside of the base lines? Because this seems like a very difficult maneuver to me when I am sprinting. Same issue "rounding" third - seems to me I am going to run into the fence unless I do some serious slowing down. Not trying to re-invent the wheel here, just wondering what everyone else does. Thank you. |
| Oct. 24, 2018 stick8 1991 posts | I, along with Oz40, used to play in an indoor league in tne winter that allowed runners to run past second and third. There was no sliding allowed (we played on carpet and you DID NOT want to slide). For the most part there were no issues with it. You were expected to run straight out. If you made a turn toward the next base you could be tagged out. That of course was a judgement call by the umpire. All in all it worked out pretty well |
| Oct. 24, 2018 wintermutt Men's 60 8 posts | So when you are rounding the bases (say for a home run) you run the bases exactly as you would in a traditional rule softball league? |
| Oct. 24, 2018 stick8 1991 posts | Wintermutt on a home run it’s hit and sit. Any other hit the answer to your question is yes. |
| Oct. 26, 2018 wintermutt Men's 60 8 posts | The only home runs I am aware of that are hit and sit would be over the fence home runs. In one league I play in over the fence is usually an out. Regarding a home run that is not over the fence (apologies for not being more clear) let's say the ball hit the left field fence and stayed in bounds. The runner rounds second base and is heading to third. The outfielder relays the ball to the rover, who is soon to throw it either home? or to third base? (no one knows quite yet). Third baseman is standing to the right of the baseline between second and third. Here the runner is stuck. If the runner intends to try to make it home (how good is the catcher is a real factor here) the runner is going to round third base. The rover can take advantage of this by throwing to the third baseman (who could be standing to the right of the baseline or on third), which means the runner will be called out for not following the correct path. If the runner goes to the left of the baseline (a tortuous path since the runner rounded second) the runner will not be able to round third and head for home. Instead the runner will probably wind up running through third and into the fence, thus depriving the runner of his/her home run. If I am incorrect in my assessment, please tell me. If I am correct, is it S.O.P. to simply not try for the home run? This situation can also happen on a double in which a decision needs to be made by the runner whether to go to third or not. I suspect this problem comes up mainly with very fast runners, so some of you may not have seen it before. Thanks in advance. |
| Oct. 27, 2018 stick8 1991 posts | Wintermutt a couple of things here 1) I’m on second no outs. Base hit to center. As a runner I’m looking to score. If you, playing third, get in my way and make contact that’s obstruction on you. A defensive player cannot make contact with a runner trying to advance, whether it’s unintentional or not. 2) That being said, other than trying to avoid being tagged out, there is no rule that I’m aware of that specifies a runner is to be called out for not following the correct path. As silly as this may sound if you’re batting and get a base hit you can take any path you want (other than going into your dugout) to reach first base. I’ll admit I was skeptical of this at first but the intent of the overrunning of second or third is designed for runners to both avoid sliding and avoid collisions on close plays. And as Omar correctly pointed out to avoid injuring knees by having to stop on a dime or suddenly. Not saying collisions or injuries won’t happen but if executed correctly it’s plausible that the number of those will drop down, possibly in a significant number. jmho |
| Oct. 27, 2018 stick8 1991 posts | Wintermutt a couple of things here 1) I’m on second no outs. Base hit to center. As a runner I’m looking to score. If you, playing third, get in my way and make contact that’s obstruction on you. A defensive player cannot make contact with a runner trying to advance, whether it’s unintentional or not. 2) That being said, other than trying to avoid being tagged out, there is no rule that I’m aware of that specifies a runner is to be called out for not following the correct path. As silly as this may sound if you’re batting and get a base hit you can take any path you want (other than going into your dugout) to reach first base. I’ll admit I was skeptical of this at first but the intent of the overrunning of second or third is designed for runners to both avoid sliding and avoid collisions on close plays. And as Omar correctly pointed out to avoid injuring knees by having to stop on a dime or suddenly. Not saying collisions or injuries won’t happen but if executed correctly it’s plausible that the number of those will drop down, possibly in a significant number. jmho |
| Oct. 27, 2018 wintermutt Men's 60 8 posts | In the over 60 league i have been playing in the runner is called out if the runner is on the wrong side of third or second base as the runner runs through. For example - runner is advancing from first to second base as hitter hits ball to pitcher and runs to first. If the runner advancing to second base from first is on the left side of second base as the runner runs through, the runner is called out, even with no apparent collision or interference. If the runner ran through on the right side the runner is not automatically out. OTOH if the runner advancing from first to second does not run through, but rounds second and heads to third, the correct side does not apply. //That being said, other than trying to avoid being tagged out, there is no rule that I’m aware of that specifies a runner is to be called out for not following the correct path.// As Omar above states //3. It is also not required that the runner touch the base when advancing on a play. Normally if the ball is coming from his right side, he runs past on the left of the base and vice versa. It is easy for the umpire to see if he "touched" or crossed the base.// In my over 60 league, if you are on the incorrect side, you are automatically out. |
| Oct. 27, 2018 wintermutt Men's 60 8 posts | C. Running through a base: If running through, runners MUST run wide and avoid the fielder(s). As much as possible, runners should run to the OPPOSITE side from the throw. Runners are safe when touching ground, even with or beyond the base, before a fielder either contacts the base with the ball or tags the runner. I found this. Does not say anything about being automatically out if on the wrong side of the throw. |
| Oct. 28, 2018 DaveDowell Men's 70 4312 posts | wintermutt ... We're happy to have you commenting, but please be aware that "running through" is not a component of the SSUSA playing rules ... It's essentially a "local league" rule modification and, accordingly, is to be administered solely by those local leagues ... Good luck! |
| Oct. 28, 2018 B.J. 1105 posts | wintermutt.. as Dave explained your rule is for a local league.. SSUSA DOES allow a runner to not touch a base but only to AVOID A COLLISION .. other than that the runner may not overrun a base ... the SSUSA rule is below 8.7(4) • AVOIDING COLLISIONS A runner must make every effort to avoid colliding with opposing players whilerunning the bases. If, in the umpire’s judgment, a runner misses a base to avoid a collision with a defensive player, the runner will not be called out. (See §8.6.) |
| Oct. 28, 2018 wintermutt Men's 60 8 posts | OK. Thank you for clarification. I will ask the league commissioner of my over 60 league. |
| Oct. 29, 2018 stick8 1991 posts | Wintermutt as BJ and Dave state that sounds like your league rule and that’s fine. It’s not an SSUSA rule per se |
| Oct. 29, 2018 garyheifner 649 posts | I like it. The two times I have had a bad hamstring pull was running full speed and having to quickly stop. If I could of run past would not have been injured. |
