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Online now: 5 members: Eazy, Flava 21, John Johnson, TABLE SETTER 11, inzerillo; 84 anonymousDiscussion: Ball carried out of play
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| July 25, 2018 OZ40 549 posts | Ball carried out of play Less than 2 outs, runners on 2nd and 3rd, outfielder catches foul ball and carries it out of play was the scenario described to me today. I thought it was a dead ball and runners move up one base, the other fellow said as many bases as they can get....I thought once it's dead it cannot be put "live" again until it's pitched....? |
| July 25, 2018 Dbax Men's 65 2101 posts | One base. |
| July 25, 2018 stick8 1992 posts | Oz, batter is out, dead ball and runner(s) on base move up one base. |
| Aug. 9, 2018 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | A ball touched over foul territory is a dead ball, unless it is what I would call a legal catch. Runners can't advance until the ball is caught, not touched. That is the difference between a fair batted ball and foul ball. The situation being discussed is what is called a "catch and carry". Not for sure, but if the fielder on purpose carries the ball into dead ball territory, runners advance two bases from when the ball went dead. Also pretty sure if the fielder on purpose throws the ball into dead ball territory, two bases from the time of the throw. I think it would be great if this site had a section where the rules are readily available. It would really enhance the discussion. |
| Aug. 9, 2018 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | It's readily available under Rules. |
| Aug. 9, 2018 B.J. 1107 posts | wayne37.. you have most of it correct.. but there is no difference for when a runner can advance on a caught foul ball it is still on 1st touch..as in a bobbled ball and then control .. here is the rule for awarded bases.. F. When a live ball is unintentionally carried by a fielder from playable territory into dead ball territory. EFFECT: The ball is dead and each base runner is awarded one base from the last base touched at the time the fielder entered the dead-ball territory. G. If, in the umpire’s judgment, a fielder intentionally carries, kicks, pushes or throws a live ball from playable territory into dead ball territory. (NOTE: A fielder carrying a live ball into a dugout or team area to tag a player is considered to have unintentionally carried it there.) EFFECT: The ball is dead. Each runner is awarded two bases from the last base touched at the time the fielder |
| Aug. 9, 2018 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | B.J., I'm not incorrect on that. Any ball touched over foul territory is a foul ball until it is caught. If they bobble it a couple of times, they can't legally tag until the fielder secures possession. If you do that, you've left the bag early and are subject to be called out upon proper appeal. You still have to complete the transfer also. Don't do that and it is a foul ball. I know baseball rules were misworded on that for years. They have finally gone in and cleaned most of the language up in the OBR (MLB rules) on several things. I have found it fascination somewhat reading how rules originated. Per example, the one that says a runner must return and touch the base they occupied on a foul ball. The reason being, in the early days of professional baseball, a runner would take off to the next base. Then they would stand right next to the base they were advancing, [second base] and say "I'm taking my lead off first." And Nancy, in answer to your statement, I have seen interpretations and rulings come directly from the OBR rule book. That's why I would like to see, "Okay, I found this in the OBR" or "I got this from out of the ASA playing rules" and give the section from the posters. Knowing where to look is a big help. In my just prior post I was using rote memory from my umpiring days of HS baseball when it came to catch and carry or willful indifference in making the ball dead. |
| Aug. 10, 2018 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | Wayne37, my statement referred to the rulebook for senior softball which is what is happening here. You might want to read it sometime. While baseball rules may be interesting, they have zero relevance to this game other than as a comparison. Maybe I am lucky because no one has ever approached me quoting baseball rules as their incorrect interpretation to one of my calls. BJ used a very important term, first touch. Secured is not correct for timing in tagging up. You started your post with a double negative. None of those exist in the rulebook that we are using. That rulebook is very easy to access from this site. |
| Aug. 10, 2018 B.J. 1107 posts | wayne.. this is not baseball.. Nancy is correct MLB rules are very different than softball and many softball organizations have rules that differ from each other.. here is the SENIOR SOFTBALL rule.. read "D" it does not change between a foul/fair caught fly ball 8.4(8) • WHEN RUNNERS CAN ADVANCE AT THEIR RISK Runners are entitled to advance with liability to be put out: A. When a pitched ball is batted. B. On a thrown ball or a fair batted ball that is not blocked. C On a thrown ball that hits an umpire. D. When a legally caught ball is first touched. when on the "home page" click on TOURNAMENTS and 2 down is a free download of senior rules |
| Aug. 10, 2018 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | Morning, sunshine. As always I appreciate your common sense approach. |
| Aug. 10, 2018 k man Men's 65 326 posts | Wayne37, you use your example as to why runners have to retag after a foul ball, well here's the example why runners can tag after first touch and not after the ball has been secured as you suggest. You mention the case where the fielder bobbles the ball a couple of times, well that juggler of an outfielder could be such a great juggler as to bobble it all the way to the infield and then secures the ball, leaving the runner unable to advance. Just as ridiculous as the guy taking the lead off first but it eliminates this scenario. I don't think the 1st touch is any different in the big leagues or any other type of ball either. |
| Aug. 10, 2018 stick8 1992 posts | Wayne37 I believe your incorrect on this. Baseball may be different but in slo pitch on a fly ball that’s in foul territory but still in play base runners can tag and leave on the first touch. BJ and Nancy are correct on this. As far as catching a foul fly ball in play and then going out of play it’s a dead ball, batter is out and runners move up one base. This is a judgement call. Consider a play I had several years ago: Runners at 2nd and 3rd, 1 out. Deep,fly ball to left in foul territory but in play. Left fielder camps under the ball, catches it at the fence (320ft). Both runners tag. Runner at third scores easily. Runner at second (very fast runner) is going to go two bases. The left fielder decided to run out of play on his own. He obviously felt he had no chance to get the runner at second so he must have felt running out of play would prevent the double tag. No way Jose. I called dead ball and awarded the runner home. |
| Aug. 11, 2018 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | Nope. I'm not wrong......and why are rules under TOURNAMENTS? I did look and finally found it the day I posted. Too many people here don't seem to know the difference in what I wrote. I SAID I WAS USING ROTE MEMORY FROM MY DAYS UMPIRING HS BASEBALL. I didn't give or cite a rule reference Rule 8.4(8) is not worded properly. Many rules through the years haven't worded properly. I know most of you believe you are correct, but you're not. Old OBR books used to say the say thing. Now it has been changed. What happens when you don't keep up with the times. What I wrote is correct. And k man you are correct in you assumption. OBR for decades had that same rule worded incorrectly as to what you proposed in you scenario. Shoeless Joe did that on a few occasions. The wording in the SSUSA is incorrect. Once again, any ball TOUCHED over foul territoy immeditely becomes a foul ball until LEGALLY CAUGHT. Hopefully, that little light over your heads with come on and you can see the fallacy in your logic. Repeat what I wrote over to yourselves a few times and it can help your intellect. Just for clarification, a fielder can juggle a foul ball all they want to into the infield. But what's the point in that seeing as to how all the have to do let the ball hit the ground to not let the runners advance. And stick8, where did I mention I wouldn't award the runner home in your scenario? If you judged that the fielder carried the ball into dead ball territory, you definatley made the correct call. |
| Aug. 11, 2018 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | Clueless, Joe Jackson. Remind me to bring protest money if I ever play in Texas. I will get my money back because the rules are the rules. |
| Aug. 11, 2018 B.J. 1107 posts | wayne.. I have no idea why you would attempt to answer Senior Softball rule questions using your rote memory from umpiring HS baseball.. now that you have found the rules.. please try reading them.. you are finally correct (except for your spelling) in part of your post about "any ball TOUCHED over foul territory "immediately" becomes a foul ball until LEGALLY CAUGHT" is there a reason that you added the word immediately or did you not word it properly.. because the ball is foul the whole time it is over foul territory.. even if caught.. I'm glad that you stopped arguing that a runner cannot advance until a ball is legally caught.. at least that is a good first step.. and again you are correct a fielder could juggle a ball all the way into the infield.. hence the rule stating that a runner can advance on 1st touch as I have tried to yell you quite a few times |
| Aug. 11, 2018 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | There are certain tournament directors that don't know the rules, so you just might. Go and read under definitions 1.28 where it defines what a foul ball is. The rules and definitions contridict each other. A BALL TOUCHED OVER FOUL TERRITORY IS A FIRST A FOUL BALL UNTIL IT IS LEGALLY CAUGHT. THE WORD TOUCHED IS THE KEY WORD. FIRST YOU TOUCH THE BALL TO MAKE THE LEGAL CATCH. AND IN THAT FRIGGIN' ORDER ALSO. Seems too many want to word the rule to their satisfaction. I read a rule and definiton that stated my case properly a few months back and all I got was a baseball interpretation of what interference was and wasn't...........and wasn't mentioned in the SUSSA rule book. Please bring money but you have to pay in cash like they do in the Hotel California. Wording your rule book correctly would help. |
| Aug. 11, 2018 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | Rulebook is worded correctly. You just have to have the capacity to understand it. Money is cash. I don't care what anyone "rote" down in their very finite umpiring career. This is some funny stuff. I have a fellow umpire that said someone is arguing the same thing on another site. Coincidence? Those responses are even funnier. . |
| Aug. 11, 2018 k man Men's 65 326 posts | I think we are all in agreement that it's the location of the ball (fair vs foul) when the ball is 1st touched. It's the other part that seems to be the issue. Rule 8.4 8D settles the part when the runner can leave. As soon as the ball touches the glove the first time. If foul ball not caught, it's just a strike. If foul ball is caught, no matter how many juggles before catch, runner may tag and advance on 1st touch. Wayne, the reason the fielder might not let a foul ball touch the ground instead of catching it is that with less than 2 strikes you are giving him another opportunity at bat. |
| Aug. 11, 2018 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | Nancy, umpires like you are a dime a dozen. You think you're just a little smarter than the next person and get abrasive when you get called out. Some people have 20 years of experience. You sound like someone that has had 1 year of experience 20 times. Ii is you who can't figure out basic 101 terminology and how flawed it is. Standing behind a strike mat calling pitches doesn't make you a good ball and strike umpire either. I dare you anytime to don the equipment and call 95 MPH pitches at the letters and the hollow of the knees with a plate 17" wide. Get out in the field and have to actually know rotations. There are steals and the action is much faster and skilled than a bunch of old men in shorts hitting a juiced ball with hot bats. There is actually skill involved. It's only funny because laughing it off means you don't really understand. When is the definition of a foul ball that is legally caught not a foul ball. IF THE BALL IS TOUCHED OVER FOUL TERRITORY IT IMMEDIATLEY BECOME A FOUL BALL WHETHER IT IS CAUGHT OR NOT!!!!! Be it also noted, I'm not arguing with you. I'm telling you why you're wrong. There is a difference. |
| Aug. 11, 2018 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | After you insulting a director and North Koreans, I consider that a compliment. I actually have much more experience than the random number that you picked. Those who know me would never call me arrogant. When I am wrong, I accept it and learn from it. This might help you too. It is funny because I do understand. You won't even listen to BJ who is a pretty common sense guy. All plates are 17". I have done fastpitch. So what's your point? You are arguing a very basic concept. We nicely to explain it to you. So be it; so be wrong. |
| Aug. 11, 2018 stick8 1992 posts | Wayne37, you are correct. A ball touched in foul territory is a foul ball. That being said, once hits the outfielders glove in foul ground and in play, any runner on base can tag and leave the base on the touch. Obviously if the ball hits the ground after the touch it becomes a dead ball. |
| Aug. 11, 2018 B.J. 1107 posts | wayne, I do have 20 yrs experience.. I have umpired, directed and have been the UIC of tournaments and I assure you that I NEVER would have used you in one of my crews.. again before you start spouting off rules become knowledgeable of what you are talking about and when you are wrong grow a pair and admit it.. have a nice day |
| Aug. 12, 2018 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | I will explain one more time why the rule as written is flawed. There is a difference between a fly ball touched over fair ground and foul ground. Over fair ground the ball is in play at all time whether it is touched or not. When touched over foul ground the ball is foul and runners cannot advance on a foul ball. That being said the runner may legally tag at the moment the ball is touched over fair ground. If a fielder touches the ball over foul ground and doesn't catch it. The ball is immediately deemed a foul ball per rule book definition. Add to that per the rule book it also states no runner may advance on a foul ball. The only way the runner can advance on a foul fly ball is for the ball to be declared legally caught...........and not touched. That in a nutshell is what makes the rule terminologically flawed. Also for many years rule books stated that a runner may tag when a fly ball over fair or foul territory is caught. That was wrong as you should all know. That language had been mostly cleaned up in the last few years as MLB has done a major re-write of their rules and other sanctioning bodies [even softball] have followed suite. The statement that a legally caught fly ball isn't a foul ball is trying to sweep what the definition of a foul ball under the carpet. It is or it isn't a fair or foul ball. No two ways around it. It really needs to read: In the exception that a runner is attempting to advance on a fly ball over foul territory, they may attempt their advance when the ball is touched in the air over foul territory. And Nancy you have been snide and condesending with your comments directed toward myself. I was attempting to a have discussion, not a contest of who is or isn't the better umpire. Why I wish this site had an ignore function. I was merely attempting to pass on knowledge I had acquired through the years. You want to know where I get a lot of rule knowledge from? A.) The Rule Book. B.) From clinics and seminars I've attended that were held my MLB umpires who have numerous games of experience under their belts. [They have also worked many playoff and World Series games. One of which has a master's in education.] C.) Numerous case books and manuals that are in print. D.) My own personal game experiences, just to mention a few. I have to tried to hone my craft when opportunities served. And BJ,just a few short months ago, you stated to me you had 15 years experience as an umpire and it suddenly morphed in 20 years. I generally pay attention to detail if you must wonder where I got that from. I haven't, and I doubt very much in the future, I will ever get the whelm to umpire senior softball. Don't need an extra pair. The ones I have now suffice me at the moment. Also, harken back a few weeks when you gave the wrong ruling for the wrong situation. I didn't feel any need to berate you as you have in past postings. Don't worry though, I would never throw you under the bus. Not that anything that you and Nancy think about me matters in the first place. And stick8, you've been more than a pleasure to converse with on many occasions. You made your point without having to insult someone's intelligence to do so. I applaud you. That's what discussion boards are for........to discuss different ideas. I would like to close with my sincerest apoligies to all the North Koreans that frequent this board that I might have slighted with my earlier comment. Jeeze, Nancy, I didn't realize you were loyal to Kim Yung Un. |
