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Online now: 5 members: Bobby B, Runner Blue, TABLE SETTER 11, TommyO, Wheat99; 99 anonymousDiscussion: Can someone explain this.
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| June 2, 2004 Walk 192 posts | Can someone explain this. I was reading the SSUSA paper today and I came across an article titled: "Field Test Developed to Catch Altered Bats" on page three. While reading the article I came across an interested quote from Gary Tryhorn. The quote said, "More than 90 percent of the Major and Major-Plus teams playing senior softball today are using altered bats" Now my question is how does Gary or anyone know this? Has research been done? Have bats been tested? Were bats tested from all the Major and Major plus teams? If so who did the testing? Where are the results? To me this was an opinion that now has become a carved in stone fact. I want to see the research and numbers done on this. Especially since I played Major plus last year and this year and no one has tested my bats, or talked to me about my teams bats, or anything. I believe if the truth was know this was a guess and an opinion. I understand the point here and all for it but to make a blanket statement without research to back it up is WRONG and it sends the WRONG MESSAGE. In a sense what is being said is that if there are 500 players total or even a 1000 in these two programs combined then you have proof that 405 or 900 of them are using altered bats. Well where I come from we have a couple of saying about these types of statements. First SHOW ME! Prove it with numbers and test results (I am sure this was never done). Second, Don't piss down my back and tell me it is raining. That is what is being done here. An opinion that has no valid proof has accussed over 90% of the players in these two programs as cheaters. So what is being said is every team that played major or major plus used altered bats because that is the only way the over 90% statement would be true and if that is true then I guess we could assume that at least some of the Old A'S were cheaters as well. Walk Major Plus 55 PS anytime anyone wants to test my bats they can. It will only cost you the price of the bat. |
| June 2, 2004 Walk 192 posts | My bad that should read 450 instead of 405. Walk |
| June 2, 2004 KillAbrew Men's 60 55 posts | I just read the article also. I am sure that none of the bats we have are altered. My team plays major 55 and only has 5 U-2's in the dug out that we do share. The price would scare any of us away. 90%+? That is a bold statement by a disgruntled player. One that should have never been said. To make a statement like this one only hurts an already fragile game. Then a news paper publishes it. Even worse. Way to go SSUSA. I also would like to see some facts. There has only been one time in Senior ball for me 7 years that I have even wondered about a bat that was being used. I welcome any testing method that will help. But don't just run your mouths with out some facts. The game has been hurt enough because of money politics. Now here we go with so-called respected people doing more harm. If there are altered bats, then yes get them out. But this article does the game no good. You lose points big time for this one. |
| June 2, 2004 BruceinGa Men's 70 3233 posts | Last year I played with the Pensacola Hitmen, 50+ major. None of our bats were altered. I only know of two senior players that had access to altered bats or the means to alter one. As for the rest of the senior player that I know, I don't believe that they would buy and use one that had been altered. |
| June 2, 2004 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | isn't this the same guy who last year acused a team of using altered bats but couldn't prove it,(just because they got beat).as a senior when i have the abkity to use my ulta-ll why would you have to use something altered. now he's to tell me that 90% of the players are using altered bats,i supposed that includes his team?hey gary sounds like 9 out 10 of your players are cheating,huh maybe? |
| June 2, 2004 crusher Men's 75 524 posts | Walk, I do not play on a major team. I have play against Majors and also just watched them in regional tournaments and the nationals. If those teams I watched are using altered bats they got took by whoever sold them the bats. The bats were dedinitely not HOT. If Gary has proof, he needs to get all those players banned (Especially from his team) or he needs to write an apology. |
| June 2, 2004 BatCop 3 posts | I am having real trouble with this Tryhorn guy. At a National Senior Summit meeting in January, he tells them „More than 90 percent of the Major and Major-Plus teams are using altered bats.‰ This is a guy that is not only on the Summit but will Chair the Summit in 2006-2007. With no proof. Just a feeling. All of us Seniors are presumed guilty. This is a guy that should not be in that position. First I get this news paper that I don‚t want, but I‚m forced to take or not have a card. Then they not only allow articles like this but treasure them. Do you have any idea of how you guys are messing up this great game. To the Editor of this paper, I have lost all respect for you. You should have been so much wiser. If some fool states that you, SSUSA are tacking kickbacks to down rate selected teams would you post that even though it is not fact. Come on guys. This is bad. Why just chip away at the game with rumors. Why not just close your doors and stop it all together. There are probably some hot bats being used. They should be dealt with. But this spreading of feces is sick. I am the bat cop and I approve this message. |
| June 2, 2004 Sticks 22 posts | I read these posts and then found the report in the paper that I had overlooked. Now that I have read the report I would be real concerned about the testing. All of us that have used Composite bats know that after break-in they get much better. Also some bats of the same model are just better than others. How the heck is a machine going to know any difference in a legal real good bat and a hot bat. If there was a machine that would be able to check the wall thickness (compared to Manufacture thickness) then I would say fine. But that is not what they do. You could be busted for a completely legit bat. Won‚t that be great. By all means test away, ban players and pay for the law suites. Test mine first I need the money. |
| June 7, 2004 KillAbrew Men's 60 55 posts | Sticks, you bring up a good point. Because some bats are much better than others. Those better ones must have more flex. But that is what the machine is going to check. Not too good. I am KillAbrew and I approve this message. |
| June 9, 2004 socal52 Men's 50 12 posts | Sounds like another witch hunt..Tourament Directors need to take the $1000 for this new machine and put it back into field upkeep and training umpires.. or at least upgrading the prizes!! I agree with the comments all bats are not created equal.. some just hit right out of the wrapper and some need to be broke in.. composites are always in a state of breaking in cracking inside and out getting better and better.. so how does it test a bat with what standards?? or is this just another ploy to make us buy new bats all the time so we don't get called cheaters or worse suspended for no reason.. Better yet you better raise the tourny fees for all the lawsuits this will cause! just my opinion.. |
| June 24, 2004 C-Man Men's 55 36 posts | I THINK ALL THE MACHINE CAN DO IS CHECK TO SEE IF THE BAT IS ENDLOADED? IF IT CHECKS WALL THICKNESS IT BETTER HAVE A +/-- OF WHATEVER. THEN THERE IS THE NEW PROCESS OUT THERE CALLED ROLLING A BAT, THERE IS NO TEST THAT ANYONE CAN DO TO CHECK THAT AND THE OLD STAND BY STEP ON THE HANDLE TO GET MORE FLEX OUT OF THE BAT, COME ON GARY, I AGREE IV'E PLAYED ON TEAMS THAT MAYBE ONE GUY HAS ONE AND MOST TEAMS KNOW WHO THEY ARE BUT 9 OUT OF 10, YOU'VE LOST MY RESPECT AS NOT ONLY A PLAYER BUT NOW YOUR IN THE LIME LIGHT AT THE TOP, I THINK IT WILL BE MANY YEARS BEFORE YOU GET THE EGG OFF YOUR FACE BIG MAN! |
| June 24, 2004 DoubleL10 Men's 70 907 posts | Cecil- Right on! |
| June 24, 2004 MK39 Men's 50 333 posts | Cheater bats in senior softball: Unlike most of you, I have talked directly to Gary Tryhorn on this matter. Gary refuses to come on here to defend himself and i have gotten very tired of what is being said here. According to Gary, he meant 9 out of 10 teams have at least 1 altered bat. NOT 9 out of 10 players. Ihave played on the Senior circuit now for 3 years and have seen and could have proved that the were teams at Qualifiers and at the worlds that were using altered bats. I cant come up with a number of how many teams or players but it is happening and that is the important part of this conversation. The witch hunt i heard about here sounds more like a personal attack on Gary who i can honestly say has more Integriy then most. How can Gary be the bad guy here even if his numbers are off. I dont think any innocent person should take it the wrong way anyway. I can live with being beat by a better team swinging Legal bats but i just like Gary will be most upset if i play against a team that has even 1 cheater bat. JMO Mike Kelly Kellys Sports 50+ |
| June 24, 2004 taits Men's 65 4548 posts | Reguarding wall thickness in bats. A simple ultrasonic hand held device that measures composites as well as metal bat walls. I have seen them in use and are accurate to about .001. Depending on model you have. Work like the Ultra sound woman get for their babies or a fish locator. They use transponders or something. I have an older model that needs the correct one instead of the one in it and the probs. Cost from about 100+- to about 3k+ for the units. Totally portable and very small. |
| June 24, 2004 STONEMAN Men's 50 535 posts | Some men r famous & others r infamous. As the later, I can state this opinion. Gary, r u 4 real? U have now joined the group of infamous clowns, such as myself.... @ Reno, u were getting beat & tried that altered bat crap. There r some men that can hit the ball better than others. Why, don't u not stay in the 55 group & leave the 50 Major Plus men alone. When u come to VEGAS, LOOK ME UP. I can show u Major Plus players that can hit a 44 or 47 cor ball will over 350' to 400'. To any other clown that wants to back Gary, get real. Face the fact, the balls r hot. Check out B & N SOFTBALL. Around 80% of the balls r to hot. A ball w/ a comp. of over 410, 'is to hot'. Any ball that has a 47 cor w/ a 525 comp wil turn almost any bat over the 1.20 bpf. If, u want to hit a very hot ball, hit the Decker 47 cor ball w/ a 525 comp? Several of us SENIORS have been hitting some of these balls 4 over 1 yr. & this ball will still fly over 400'. Heat, altitude, etc. will effect a ball. GARY, WHO, r u to go up to a player & state that THAT PERSON IS A CHEAT? That, that person is using an illegal bat? A proven fact; a 10 MPH wind will cause a ball to travel 30 ' farther. For every 10 degrees warmer, a ball will also, fly farther. Reno, is 4500'. How about this! R u getting older? Have u lost it? Sorry, old man. But, I do not need to cheat & neither do the matured men that I practice w/. U have lost it & have insulted many, fine & honorable men. Yes, I am out of bounds w/ this reply. Bring u're bats & c how far some 'real' some power hitters can hit a ball.... |
| June 24, 2004 Lecak Men's 60 1026 posts | Only two more years and I get to join in on the fun. Check Ebay there has to be 50 bats at any time that are being sold altered. Somebody is buying this crap. |
| June 25, 2004 rnkuyath 7 posts | I haven't seen any suspicious bats in senior place except some PSTs that didn't sound like a stock PST when hit. |
| June 25, 2004 Walk 192 posts | MK all I asked for was simple proof. If someone knows for sure with stats then prove it. In my business unless you back up a statement with facts and I mean proven fact such as test results then it is just an opinion. I understand you having your friends back but where are the facts. I have been asked by some senior softball officals about this statement and as I told them unless it is proven then it was the wrong thing to say. Look at the headlines of the paper and then read the article. Now explain to me where the facts are. The facts come from only Gary and they are not backed up by any research period. Gary says 9 out of 10 teams. Ok lets see last year in the 50 + Major plus there were maybe 20 teams that played in the worlds. So what this statement is saying is 18 out of 20. Ok then, I know my team did not use such bats, your team did not use these bats (that is what you said and I believe you), Thermco did not use or have such bats, neither did the old Fergis team or Florida Crush, and Mission did not use these bats. Knowing this from talking to these guys and looking at their bats I have done more research than what was done in this statement. I have also concluded that the 90% is over-hyped and you and I both know it. I know you Mike and I know you would not put up with it. You know I would not put up and we both know others would not either. So just explain how this percentage came about? This is not meant as a personal attack on Gary I just want the proof. Had I made this same stupid statement about Northern Ca teams I bet my house I would be called out and people would want my proof so explain why we cannot ask for proof. You see what this unfounded statement did was put a cloud of doubt over the Major and Major plus levels. Had that cloud been founded then we players would have to accept it but it so far is unfounded and all I am asking is if I as a major plus player have to defend my team and my level then I want to see the proof. I do not feel it is fair to have to live with this cloud because of someones opinion. Just show me the proof and I will go away. Walk 55 Major Plus |
| June 25, 2004 MK39 Men's 50 333 posts | Stoneman first: Steve, please watch the name calling here. When you needed me to help you against the big bully manufactuer who was giving you grief, i went out of my way to help you. I will stand up for a man like Gary Tryhorn because i know he is a man of integrity who has been cheated on without a doubt in the last year. Thanks Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50+ |
| June 25, 2004 MK39 Men's 50 333 posts | Walk: Regardless of exact numbers, the problem is real and Gary has been on the side that was cheated upon. I was called upon by numerous players, none of my own team members, just other concerned players in Salem, Or. at the usssa worlds 2 years ago to listen to some of the bats being used by 2 of the teams in the 50 major plus division. The Ultra 2 was tossed the day of the event and the bats in question were all PST's. I know the PST as well as anyone and there was no doubt in my mind that 3 of the PST'S being used in that game had been shaved. That comes from the sound alone. Ican't say that they were end loaded because i never had one in my hands. Now, one team had 2 of them and the other team had 1. In Reno last year, a team had a painted original velocite looking like the ultra 2. How do i know. The neck of the bat on the velocite is way thicker and the barrel lenght is longer by 1/2 inch on the original velocite. We asked the team not to use the bat in the game against us "Rebels" and they did the correct thing and left it in the bag. I look at this thread alone and see players who played on a 45's and 50's team Sponsered by a Major Calif. sponser back then. The bats were supplied by Easton to the Sponser who gave them to his players. The bat was the green Bell Corp and they were monster end loaded and super thinned walled. I know this to be a fact because i swung one of them in BP only while playing with them as a pick up player.These bats were used in actual events as well as world championships. I look in this thread and see players who were suspended from senior softball for infractions serious eneough to be suspended for and i just can't sit back and watch a man with real INTEGRITY like Gary Tryhorn gettting slammed by people who live in a glass house themselves. Lets be real guys and stop trying to cover up a serious issue. If i know of an illegal bat at any of the 4 worlds events i take my team to this year, then i will file a formal compliant but only if there is no doubt in my mind. I said it before that i can live with beating beat but just not by a cheat. Hope no ones takes this wrong and gets all mad because i am not trying to be hurtfull here. I just want the focus on Cheater bats where it belongs = On the Cheaters. Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50 + |
| June 25, 2004 Sticks 22 posts | MK, the focus should be on the cheaters. I agree with that. I‚m sure GT is a man of integrity. But for a member of the Senior Summit and soon to be Chair of the Summit to make an unfounded statement like this, is totally inappropriate. I for one am appalled at the lack of thought that he used when speaking at the Summit. Being a person of responsibility he needs to think through his statements before speaking. As you point out his percentages may just be off. Even if he had reversed the percentages I would be just as angry when he offers no evidence. His statement is just throwing mud and his hands are dirty now. I believe he should apologize to Senior players and remove himself from office. |
| June 25, 2004 MK39 Men's 50 333 posts | Sticks: Thanks for your feedback. Somehow we need to get past the numbers thing here. Gary brought attention to a growing and serious problem here. I don't feel personally offended by his statements at all, but i did point out that in salem or in 2002 usssa worlds that i alone witnessed 2 out of the 5 major plus teams using altered PST bats. I was playing AAA with the fast track team that weekend and saw no altered bats at the AAA level. I only watched 2 teams and they both used altered bats. There was 5 teams at that level and who knows what i might have found had i watched more of it. I think that each team needs to have a player with respect for the game that will stand up and check all the bats on his team. Reputations are fragile and i personally supply my team with all the bats we use and have a Kelly's Sports logo on them. i will not let any out side bats into our dugout and i take 100% responsibility for the bats used by my team. Any one else worried enough about there team to moniter all the bats being used by there team???? Lets stay focused on the real problem here, Cheater bats. Again Sticks, thanks for your feedback. Mike Kelly Klelly's Sports 50+ |
| June 25, 2004 50guy 1 posts | "Innocent until proven guilty‰ and "you can't un-ring the bell" are two clichés that come to mind when suspecting someone of using an altered bat. The way accusations go, if you even breathe a word of someone using an altered bat, you could end up ruining a players reputation and he / she could be innocent all the way and, I don‚t need to get into what a lawyer could do with that. I for one won't be the guy who takes a chance like that; you need a lot more than just speculation before you call a guy on your suspicions. Anyway, this thread is a step forward and maybe will make someone think twice. Procedures, policies, and penalties should come from the top level as the consequence and impact must be for all of us, especially when you compete at a world‚s championship. |
| June 25, 2004 MK39 Men's 50 333 posts | 50guy: Your so right and that is why guys like myself and larry cambell from the old a's have first brought it to the players attention before bringing it to the umpire or tournament director. both cases they decided not to push it and rightfully so, It is amatuer softball played at many levels with the same goal. To play as hard as you can and hope you come out as the winner. I have won some worlds and i am proud of that, i am also proud that we beat bigger, and so called better players while they were using jucied bats and we were not. Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50 + |
| June 28, 2004 Sticks 22 posts | MK39, I quote you: "I think that each team needs to have a player with respect for the game that will stand up and check all the bats on his team. Reputations are fragile and i personally supply my team with all the bats we use and have a Kelly's Sports logo on them. i will not let any out side bats into our dugout and i take 100% responsibility for the bats used by my team. Any one else worried enough about there team to moniter all the bats being used by there team????" With that in mine and many of us thinking that bat sponsored teams are using bats that the rest of can not get. I would ask you that if ever our teams meet can we exchange our five Ultra 2's for five of yours. That way will all the game would be straight up. |
| June 28, 2004 MK39 Men's 50 333 posts | Sticks: Thanks for your feedback. Somehow we need to get past the numbers thing here. Gary brought attention to a growing and serious problem here. I don't feel personally offended by his statements at all, but i did point out that in salem or in 2002 usssa worlds that i alone witnessed 2 out of the 5 major plus teams using altered PST bats. I was playing AAA with the fast track team that weekend and saw no altered bats at the AAA level. I only watched 2 teams and they both used altered bats. There was 5 teams at that level and who knows what i might have found had i watched more of it. I think that each team needs to have a player with respect for the game that will stand up and check all the bats on his team. Reputations are fragile and i personally supply my team with all the bats we use and have a Kelly's Sports logo on them. i will not let any out side bats into our dugout and i take 100% responsibility for the bats used by my team. Any one else worried enough about there team to moniter all the bats being used by there team???? Lets stay focused on the real problem here, Cheater bats. Again Sticks, thanks for your feedback. Mike Kelly Klelly's Sports 50+ |
| June 28, 2004 MK39 Men's 50 333 posts | Sticks: sorry the above reply was a glitch. Sure i will swap you any one of my bats, Miken u2, demarini evo, first batch synergy's, whatever you want to do, all you need is a bat as legal as mine and it is a done deal. look me up at any event and introduce yourself and i will show you the biggest arsenal of legitimate bats any 1 team ever had. Thanks for your reply. Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50+ |
| June 30, 2004 KillAbrew Men's 60 55 posts | MK39, I have finally chosen to respond to your attempts to lesson the impact of a thoughtless statement made by a good friend of yours. I would have to agree that G.T. is an honorable person. Or as you said „Lets stay focused on the real problem here, Cheater bats.‰ Once again you miss the focus. That is not of issue here. That is an issue and should be dealt with. But this was a post about a felonious statement. The carelessness with his amount of authority was beyond comprehension. You say that we are caught up in the numbers. Yes I for one am. But they are not my numbers. They are G.T.‚s numbers that I find offensive. I pray to god that he as I believe are not accurate. I do understand that regardless of the numbers there is some problem. But it is his numbers and the forum he chose to throw them out that I have a problem with. To turn the coin. You M.K. have a great business. I have bought bats from you and been very happy. But I am sure that with the volume that you do there has been some deals that have not gone well. If that one customer that was unhappy came on here and let us all know that he believes that nine of ten deals you do are bad, I would find that upsetting. These kind of thoughtless comments are something that none of us should tolerate. So yes I am appalled at the numbers. With G.T. being a man of integrity I would expect him to do the honorable thing and resign. You can not just blatantly profile that many with out seeing some fallout. Too bad we can not impeach. |
| June 30, 2004 BruceinGa Men's 70 3233 posts | I met GT about three years ago at the SPA meeting in Marietta and was impressed by him. I don't think he should resign but I do think that he should retract his statement about the percentage of teams using altered bats. |
| June 30, 2004 MK39 Men's 50 333 posts | KillAbrew: Thanks for your comments. In regards to my business, if i had 9 out of 10 dis sastified customers, we would not have a business to talk about. Again i would like to point out that it was meant as 9 out of 10 teams, meaning at least 1 player on each of those 9 teams and he was refering to Major plus teams only. I honestly think that he is not to far off here. I can personally swear to 5 teams alone at the 50 major plus level that has used illegal bats in the 2 years that i have been involved in senior softball. I do have some good news about this. I have talked with the USSSA lawyer who is going to dispatch a USSSA offcial to Panama Beach,fl. and his sole responsibilty will be to look and listen for altered and or illegal bats. Again as stated before, i will put my store logo on all my bats and be 100% responsible for those bats at that and all other world events i bring my team to. I pity any one who thinks they are big enough or bad enough to challenge this USSSA offcial as i know that they have been trained to sniff out the bad ones. Just so no Senior softball player feels that senior players are the only ones using tainted bats, these USSSA offcials starting in august will make stops at a lot of the upper division younger events as well as they are and have been using tainted bats all along, Before the ultra, during the ultra and after the ultra. Gary will not come on this board to defend his staements but i will share my expierences with you by telling you that the using of illegal bats in the major plus 50's is happening, Has been happening and is documented starting back in 2000 with a so. cal team and will continue to happen until just one more team gets caught, suspensions are handed down and reputations are tarnished. I plan on keeping my reputation untarnished. Again thanks for your comments and your business as well. Mike Kelly Kelly-s Sports 50+ |
| July 1, 2004 DoubleL10 Men's 70 907 posts | Mike- From where I sit the illegal bat problem began in 1998 when that Southern California team used painted titanium bats AND had players from 43 to 48 years old masquerading as 50+ players. Also, I can personally attest that the problem pervades all ages groups; I still play"young" ball and some of those guys are proud to show me their painted Ultra IIs and Velocite 2E's (or whatever they are). Most of these illegal sticks are way endloaded so it's not hard to tell just by picking them up. |
| July 1, 2004 MK39 Men's 50 333 posts | DoubleL10: Hi Larry and thanks for your comments. Guess i had the wrong year as i put 2000 and it was 1998. Problem is that only some get caught but most don't ever get caught. I was talking to a very well know and respected 50 major plus player last night on this subjest and he is aware of the major plus guys who are using juiced PST's and other altered bats and some of these guys have been doing this for so long. Some of them even get the bats juiced right from the manufactuer. they might not even think it is wrong because they did get it from a manufactuer. Bottom line is if the bat dont meet the factory specs that it was approved by then it is an illegal bat. Look at the bat ban of 2002. Why were medi ocre bats like the worth 3dx getting banned, why because worth did not make it according to the factory specs that they originally got it approved under. All the bats that were banned that year by all the different manufactuers were also not made the way they agreed to make them. ASA sent the manufactuers a message that year to stop sending out bats that do not meet the factory specs. The original bat cheaters were the bat manufactuers. Now that they are backing out of that , a new group of want to be bat doctors has emerged. These bat doctors even have there own websites and brag about juicing and altering bats and they seem to be doing a pretty good business now. Well who is buying and using those bats??? Just like you said Larry, Kids, Seniors and who ever else feels that there natural talents are not good enough to compete fairly. A sad thing and i for one am real glad that USSSA will represent at our worlds this year and will deal with those who decide to use altered bats. There will be some examples made at all levels this year as they try to crack down on this very serious issue. Bad enough to lose to a cheater but what if he takes your pitchers head off??? Take care Larry and it is always a pleasure to talk with you. Mike Kelly Kely's Sports 50+ |
