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| Aug. 28, 2018 creins 54 posts | what is the rule 7th inning of a game. In the bottom of the 7th inning, Home team is up to bat and scored 9. Winning run on 3rd, 2 outs after a base hit. Guy on first gets a runner. as soon as he takes the base the Visiting scorekeeper says that guy has already ran that inning. Umpire stops game and Home book scorebook says he has not, but they were not writing it down who had ran after this long inning and who had not. Umpire gets umpire in charge and Tournament Director over and 20 minutes later after one of the managers jokingly said let's flip for it, and then they did. No one knew what to do. |
| Aug. 28, 2018 OmahaChuck Men's 60 39 posts | I don't have an answer but wouldn't it have been a good example of sportsmanship if the pinch runner had said, "I have run this inning" and then go to extras... |
| Aug. 28, 2018 DaveDowell Men's 70 4312 posts | creins ... This is more an education on the importance of the Home team keeping an accurate "book" than it is a courtesy runner issue ... There was no argument about rule §8.5(1) prohibiting a CR entering more than once per inning ... As the Director having to instruct the umpire on making the call, I would have been comfortable with using the visitor book, in the absence of the home book being definitive, and instructed the umpire to ring him up ... This is a "best available evidence" approach ... Had the home scorekeeper simply said "..No he didn't run..", then the coin flip approach is [1] mutually acceptable and [2] as good as any other resolution! ... But it's somewhat convenient for the home scorekeeper to say they "..were not writing it down who had ran after this long inning and who had not.." ... That would have been a key factor in supporting the visitor book in my decision if I had to make one ... OmahaChuck also makes an excellent point ... |
| Aug. 28, 2018 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | This is the reason that when I umpire that I make them call their numbers out, both the original runner and the courtesy runner. It also makes the process smoother, not just letting someone step on the bag without checking in. I know that if I hear the same number running twice that inning that I have an out if he has touched that bag. There are other less common situations, but the person running twice is the most likely to happen, and I had it again in Columbus. Now Dave can tell you that when I keep score that I keep track of everything for both teams and got quite a few extra outs like that. As an umpire I never trust the scorekeepers 100%; so I always keep runs and want to know who the courtesy runners are. I know what a good book looks like if a question comes up. Believe me that I can resolve these situations without getting help, but I was our scorekeeper for over 20 years. Not all umpires have that experience. |
| Aug. 28, 2018 stick8 1991 posts | Creins, if it’s confirmed the runner did in fact run for someone earlier in the inning it would be an out and you lose the runner at first. Being that your situation was 2 outs with winning run on third the inning is over and you go to the top of the 8th. |
| Aug. 28, 2018 Bob21 46 posts | Well, a situation just like this occurred at the Rocky Mountain Championships in the 60 Major game this weekend. The visitor’s scorekeeper was correct and had a meticulous score book (we were talking to her while the brain trust was deciding to flip a coin). As fate would have it, the next batter grounded out and the game went to extras. And yes, the player did run twice and his team won in the extra inning. |
| Aug. 28, 2018 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | Stick8, right on, my friend. Really? I sure hope that you are both talking about the same game. This is inexcusable. If there were two umpires even more so. I teach our umpires to do what I do. If those numbers are called out loud, everyone can hear them. That being said even if I didn't have a reliable method, if I see that she is keeping a good book, and the other scorekeeper is not, the lady is getting the out for her team. A coin flip is the admission that no one is control of the game. Dave, I think that you have another umpire teaching opportunity here. |
| Aug. 28, 2018 B.J. 1105 posts | sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with some of you.. I'm talking tournament ball now and not local rec. leagues.. it's the umpire's job to do this.. I have never done a tour. where either my partner or I didn't have a small notebook to keep track of courtesy runners and subs.. usually it easiest for the base umpire to keep track of it.. to many times I have watched different fields have the home score keeper do it.. and guess what many times I have heard the arguments because teams disagree.. also when I'm the UIC at a tournament I instruct my umpires that it's their job to keep a record and not to rely on the home/visitors score book |
| Aug. 28, 2018 Bob21 46 posts | Yes Nancy Allen, same game. I play for a different team and we were next up on that field and watched the whole debacle. Yes, it was about 20 minutes and rather strange. We all couldn't believe they flipped a coin. I think it was a fail on the part of the umpire and tourney directors with that situation. But, alas, learning moment (I Hope). |
| Aug. 28, 2018 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | BJ, I do agree with you, and I do that for subs, but I honestly do not for courtesy runners because it is a lot of paperwork, and I don't want to slow the game down with that. What I do works for me, but I do know a lot of umpires never write anything down. My friend that is a good umpire that has done this for 46 years teases me because I keep my own little scoreboard on every game. With the SSUSA game cards, I use theirs instead. You are right of course on that. It is the umpire's responsibility always. I do what I described whether I do plate or bases, and I have gotten the outs. Of course on bases, it is definitely easier to catch the player that runs twice because you are looking right at them. |
| Aug. 28, 2018 creins 54 posts | There were two outs and it was the same 60 Major team game at Rocky Mountain. The head umpire said "it is not the umpires job to keep track of runners, it is the books", but then they would not take the word of the book of the visiting team. This was on Saturday at the "b" complex field #1. There was a head umpire at both complexes and not sure this head umpire was experienced as the one at the "A" complex on Saturday. The runner had already went to the bag. |
| Aug. 28, 2018 DaveDowell Men's 70 4312 posts | B.J. and Nancy ... While I DO completely agree with both of you about what should have been done, the question asked by creins was beyond that point in time of (non)performance ... The umpire(s), managers and at least one scorekeeper didn't do it! ... The question was about "what next?" ... Any better ideas than the two suggested? ... You don't have your Back to the Future time machine or DeLorean to re-check who ran! ... [grins] |
| Aug. 28, 2018 B.J. 1105 posts | nancy.. I understand but it stops all the problems with relying on someone else.. as far as paperwork I just use back of the scorecard and write down say 9/16 means #9 running for 16.. real easy and takes 10 seconds |
| Aug. 28, 2018 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | Bob21, thank you. I shudder to think if it happened twice. At least I feel a little better. Dave, I love DeLoreans. Do you mind if I take Fran? I only suggested what works for me. I agree, but you know Coachie's scorekeeper appears in moments like this. I was a really good one that earned my share of outs for our team. BJ, I really admire you and agree, but I hate paperwork and have never missed an out yet (so far). I look for simple solutions. You are very professional, and I respect you very much. |
| Aug. 28, 2018 coop3636 514 posts | Have official scorekeepers for all the games Then you have a book to go to in the event there is a question The entry fees are high enough to have 2 umpires and a scorekeeper on each field for all games, if not all, make sure ALL of the brackets games have them. We can do without scorekeepers and just using one ump for the RR games. Just my 2 cents coop3636 |
| Aug. 28, 2018 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | Coop3636, your intentions are great, but I have some stories about issues with tournament scorekeepers, and why they are not as reliable as you might think which I will not share now. As an umpire, I only trust myself. It is my responsibility to keep track of this. It is my game. |
| Aug. 28, 2018 coop3636 514 posts | Nancy I have had those horror stories too, that's why we always keep a book. With a official scorekeeper, at least you have a reference to go to if the teams have problems. coop3636 |
| Aug. 28, 2018 k man Men's 65 326 posts | Just curious, based on the conversation, is it the responsibility of the team in the field to question this call or is it the responsibility of an umpire to make the call without the challenge. Or which ever comes first. In the 5 or so years I've been playing senior ball we did have this called against us once. We were flip-flopped for being down 10 runs, went on to score 13, totally lost track of runners and the other team (which was our sister team and they knew the guys called it on us. and yes we did go on to win the game. |
| Aug. 28, 2018 coop3636 514 posts | It is up to the teams to protest the runner It is NOT the ump or official scorekeepers job (it is like a protest for an illegal sub) |
| Aug. 28, 2018 k man Men's 65 326 posts | Thanks coop |
| Aug. 28, 2018 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | I see this the same as an defensive appeal and if the umpire can't make a definite call, play on McDuff. I can't believe they stood there and argued for 20 minutes over this. Reasons such as this is why EVERY UMPIRE should be required at all times to have a pen and some little notepad in the very least to write down who subbed for who. If it isn't the umpire's resposibilty, who else's should it be? DUH! Hard for me to believe any seaoned umpire doesn't write it down. You're right BJ, it ain't hard to do. |
| Aug. 28, 2018 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | Coop3636, I respectfully disagree. It is my call. It is automatic as soon as they touch that base. I know what you mean about an official scorekeeper but know that I am better at it than ones that I have ever had that come in to work, and if they are in a score tower, it is even worse. I agree with BJ, but even if it is 10 seconds, if each team has 2 courtesy runners, I have taken 40 seconds an inning. What I do works for me, and I have never missed the out...yet. I only trust myself because I have always tracked the game. I don't know how umpires can blindly just not know those things. It would make me very uncomfortable. |
| Aug. 28, 2018 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | coop3636 ~ she needs to read 1.1 A (6) regarding illegal substitutes. It is readily available under rules. |
| Aug. 28, 2018 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | Perhaps if someone doesn't know how to use a rulebook, they should not embarrass themselves in a public forum. A courtesy runner is not a substitute. The rule so incorrectly quoted above is on page 1. There are other pages after that which cover the topic that the rest of us are discussing. She knows how to read the correct rule. Try it sometime. |
| Aug. 29, 2018 B.J. 1105 posts | "SHE" did a good job..lol |
| Aug. 29, 2018 B.J. 1105 posts | k man, Nancy is correct.. below is a section of the rule for courtesy runners.. as you can see an illegal C/R should be called out upon touching the bag 8.5(5) • COURTESY RUNNER OFFICIALLY IN THE GAME A courtesy runner must report to, and be acknowledged by, the umpire. A courtesy runner is in the game when he touches the base. If a courtesy runner is determined illegal, he will be called out upon touching the base and no other courtesy runner is allowed. The original runner may not return as the runner. An illegal courtesy runner on base is committing a continuing violation and may be called out upon appeal at any time while on base or, if he scores, prior to the first pitch to the next batter. |
| Aug. 29, 2018 B.J. 1105 posts | Dave, flipping a coin??? everyone knows that is why they make ouija boards and every tour. dir. should have one :) |
| Aug. 29, 2018 Nancy Allen Men's 55 1438 posts | BJ, I hope that you got as good of a laugh out of this as I did. I intentionally did not list the rule reference to see what someone would do next. Of course if HE had paid attention to details, Dave had the rule reference near the top of this thread. Maybe Dave cut and pasted that out of the MLB rulebook as HE rudely accused Dave of elsewhere. I appreciate the chance at a KO since someone won't tap out. You and I have been insulted by this person continually, and this the only time that I remember us insulting anyone but if someone is going to dish it out, they should expect it back. You and I know that we are not perfect or great, and we are always willing to learn. Both you and I mentor umpires and enjoy helping them to improve. We love umpiring and this sport. You have always had my respect. Dave and BJ, here east of the Mississippi, we use rock, paper, scissors. |
