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Discussion: runner intentionally get hit by ball

Posted Discussion
Sept. 13, 2018
jfsully
45 posts
runner intentionally get hit by ball
Theoretical situation:

Less than two outs and runners on first and second and a slow runner at bat.

Ball is hit towards the shortstop (or middle fielder) for what would be a easy double play.

The runner on second intentionally gets into the path of the ball and gets hit. By getting hit with the ball and the ball deflecting away from the fielder, a double play is not turned.

Is it just one out for the runner being struck by the ball? By doing this doesn't the runner help his team by avoiding a double play?

(amazing what a few beverages will make guys dream up)
Sept. 14, 2018
txnighttrain
79 posts
If the runner intentionally interferes, the ball is dead, then the most advanced runner and the runner that interfered are out on a double play. So the runners that were on 2nd and 1st at the time of the pitch would be out. This would be an umpire judgement call to whether it was intentional or not. If not intentional, then the ball is dead, the runner struck is out and the batter is awarded 1st base. any runner forced to move up because of the award would get one base. In this case the batter would end up on first, the runner on first on second and the runner who was on second that got stuck off the base is out. My advice is to read the rule book. Many questions can be answered in doing so.
Sept. 14, 2018
B.J.
438 posts
Hmmmm... that advice didn't seem to help someone else
Sept. 14, 2018
Nancy Allen
Men's 55
1080 posts
BJ, I thought that same thing when I read it but decided not to be snarky. Thanks for the same interpretation.
Sept. 15, 2018
jfsully
45 posts
I guess I should have been more specific in saying WE know the answer if it is obviously intentional. WE know how to read, read numerous rule books and also know how to respond to questions in a non snarky manner.

The response "This would be an umpire judgement call to whether it was intentional or not." confirms what we discussed, the decision is on the umpire as to whether it was intentional.

The problem is it is a play that is easy to make look unintentional (even if intentional).

Since it is almost an automatic double play in the original described situation, the risk of putting onus on the umpire might make sense.



Sept. 15, 2018
Nancy Allen
Men's 55
1080 posts
Jfsully, I hope that you did not think that BJ's or my comments were about you. They definitely were not. He and I both know what our side conversation was about. I will say on your subject that as we get older that it is harder to get out of the way of the throw. I sincerely hope at our ages that we are not intentionally throwing a ball at anyone. I have heard a few emotional thrower complaints over the years though. The thing that makes it more difficult to judge is that as umpires our eyes follow the ball which can cause us to miss other details sometimes. There are also a few really good actors playing defense that get calls because they sell things to get the desired call.
Sept. 15, 2018
jfsully
45 posts
Nancy , no I guessed that there was another background issue. You have always been very respectful to even the silliest questions on here.

BTW, the question was the runner intentionally running into the ball before the SS picks it up, thereby deflecting it so the SS cannot turn a double play.

I know that if the runner OBVIOUSLY intentionally runs into the ball,before the SS can field it at all, what the call would be. The question was, IF the runner was able to 'sell it" and not make it look intentional it would seem to be a smart base running play, essentially giving himself up and saving a double play.

Sept. 17, 2018
OmahaChuck
Men's 60
34 posts
Let me ask one more question on this thread to throw a 'wrinkle' in:

Same situation. One out, runners on first and second. Ground ball hit to shortstop and the runner on 2nd speeds up (or slows down) in an attempt to camoflage or create eye clutter for the shortstop trying to field the ball.

The runner times it perfectly, jumps over the ball (or lets it go between his legs), and the shortstop boots it. All runners advance safely.

Is this interference in any way? I have done this a few times with mixed results but don't want to get the team penalized if I'm not allowed. I've never been called on it.
Sept. 17, 2018
lb16
Men's 50
113 posts
If the runner running to third only jumps over ball to not get hit by it there is no interference. If runner stops or attempts to shield fielder from ball you have interference.
Sept. 17, 2018
Wayne 37
Men's 60
460 posts
They were talking about me.

Immediate dead ball, runner out. Runner returns to 2B and batter is awarded 1B.

No "most advanced runner" is called out. Thus, no double play.

Like I stated earlier, you two do a big disservice to both players and other umpires with your continued mis-intreptations.

Have a blessed day.

Sept. 18, 2018
mck71
101 posts
Wayne, you are letting your frustration with Nancy and BJ get to you. Neither of them stated the rule that you are disagreeing with and hence saying they "do a big disservice to both players and other umpires with your continued mis-intreptations." is not warranted (IMHO).

As an umpire for many years, I don't claim to know everything and TRY to do the very best that I can and ask these boards and fellow umpires for their thoughts but at the end of the day, I need to read the book for the correct call. I personally have felt that their advice has been spot on and truly appreciate when they site the specific rule. I understand that not all rules are written correctly which seems to be your biggest pet peeve. My wife is an English major and correct me all the time, most times it's because of what I actually say, NOT what I actually meant to say! :-)

And for the record, as per the original post, if the runner coming OFF 2B was the one hit, they are out and there fore cannot return to 2B as you stated, runner on 1B has to go to 2B and batter goes to 1B. See I KNEW what you meant but you didn't say it correctly, see how that works?

Good luck to all in Vegas (in more ways than one? :-)
Sept. 18, 2018
B.J.
438 posts
mck71.. thank you..
Sept. 18, 2018
Nancy Allen
Men's 55
1080 posts
Yes, mck71, thank you.
Sept. 19, 2018
Wayne 37
Men's 60
460 posts
mck71,

Why would I be frustrated? They've been wrong so many times it isn't even funny anymore. Since I didn't even post until four days after they did, why would they even bring it up in the first place? I would rather read something wrong, but if I was on the field, I would know the call. Apparently they just think trolling somebody was more appropiate than than actually answering the question.

Their thinly veiled comments were warranted in your honest opionion? Thus I used the words, "like I said earlier." as reference to their past misgivings.

Hmmmm... that advice didn't seem to help someone else

BJ, I thought that same thing when I read it but decided not to be snarky. Thanks for the same interpretation.

What did these comments lend to the origianl post anyway? Something they can add to their next side conversation?

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Nancy Allen ~ Jfsully, I hope that you did not think that BJ's or my comments were about you. They definitely were not. He and I both know what our side conversation was about. I will say on your subject that as we get older that it is harder to get out of the way of the throw. I sincerely hope at our ages that we are not intentionally throwing a ball at anyone. I have heard a few emotional thrower complaints over the years though. The thing that makes it more difficult to judge is that as umpires our eyes follow the ball which can cause us to miss other details sometimes. There are also a few really good actors playing defense that get calls because they sell things to get the desired call.

Who said anything about getting out the way of a thrown ball? Oy vey!

Even an idiot sounds like a genius to another idiot. See how that works? Not saying you're an idiot as to avoid confusion. But, you know what I meant.

Have fun in Vegas. I won't be there, but I'm planning on attending in Phoenix.
Sept. 19, 2018
Nancy Allen
Men's 55
1080 posts
I am sure that you thought that you were great in the maybe dozen games that you ever did. We actually umpire. You do not. I am sure that you were enough of a problem that they stopped scheduling you. I would have. Since you obviously don't respect me, go ahead and give it your best shot. I have worked all over the country and am a professional. You have not and are not.
Sept. 19, 2018
DaveDowell
Men's 65
2120 posts
Children, stop the bickering ... This is an extreme annoyance to the membership and is the type of activity that causes entire threads to disappear without notice ... Thank you ...
Sept. 19, 2018
softball4b
Men's 65
1084 posts
DD, please don't close the thread, I am unable to get The View at work so this is entertaining, wait did I say at work, I mean at an undetermined location and undetermined time.
Sept. 19, 2018
Dbax
Men's 60
1739 posts
Now that's funny.
Sept. 19, 2018
Wayne 37
Men's 60
460 posts
There isn't really much left to say, softball4b. I've tried to help them and they refused my experience and knowledge of the game.

Nancy, I believe your real problem is that you fish for compliments on this board. Then you get upset when you don't get them. If you want my respect, simply admit you were wrong. In the end you will be more knowledgeable of the rules and be a better mentor to your students.

I just sold most of my equipment to a young umpire last Saturday. He sure was glad to get it. It was good quality protective gear like the pros wear. Not a couple of pullover shirts and shorts. It brought back some fond memories.

I'm only trying to help you and BJ become more proficient in your craft. I've gone thru great length and detail to do so. It's a shame the two of you are so stubborn!
Sept. 20, 2018
B.J.
438 posts
wayne, I have made mistakes many times on this board over the years when I have tried to answer questions and do not mind being corrected as long as the person correcting me is using SENIOR SOFTBALL rules and cites the rule that is in THE SENIOR SOFTBALL RULE BOOK and not what they THINK it should be or what they used to do in BASEBALL.. you need to go back and look at how many times others have posted about your off the wall inane comments.. one last thing...
I'm sure there are many teams out there that will be glad to hear that you sold your equipment to a young umpire
Sept. 20, 2018
Wayne 37
Men's 60
460 posts
When I've cited anything from baseball, I've used the term, "If rote memory serves me." Softball rules are baseball rules that are modified for the most part. There are very few variations.

If you think my comments are inane, it's because the two of you have mucked up the waters so bad people don't know what is true and what isn't. It's called pack mentality. Sort of like a Trump rally. I find it very, very sad that the two of you are so adamant and refuse to swallow your pride as to being wrong.

As for baseball rules, you hide your head in the sand when Dave has cut and pasted interpretations directly from the MLB rulebook. If you don't believe me, feel free to ask him yourself. They are a good guideline to go by, but are not to be found in print in any softball publication that I've ever recalled reading. If you don't believe me, READ the MLB rulebook.

Don't worry, I hung up my mask a few years back to begin with. Have you ever gotten behind a plate where a 95 mph fastball is coming at you and the only real thing to protect you is the catcher and your equipment? This isn't one of those type games where you put a towel over your head with a hat on and wear a pair of shorts. What you're used to is a piece of cake compared umping big boy ball. Until you get out there and do it, then I suggest that you keep your thoughts and comments to yourself.

When you said you've made mistakes many times on this board, I can believe that, just more mistakes than you think you have. You don't get to the level I attained by making the misconceptions of the most basic of rules you two have. YOU JUST DON'T!!!!

Those that can umpire do. Those that can't, umpire softball. How about you post some video of the two of you umpiring so we can all get a glimpse of that greatness?
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