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Discussion: runner not on base at pitch

Posted Discussion
Sept. 14, 2018
curty
Men's 60
162 posts
runner not on base at pitch
I have an idea but look to the knowledgeable board members: runners on 1st & 3rd, no out, lefty batter up: runner on 1 is leaning back, with 1 foot on safety base only, runner on 3 is also leaning back toeing the base as pitch is delivered. Both runners vacate their positions while pitch is in the air into foul territory. Original call was no pitch, as runners were not in position. After 20 mins of discussion, all agreed to go with that, as no penalty to either team ( really just wanted to resume play!) how would YOU call it
Sept. 14, 2018
lb16
Men's 50
113 posts
Barring any league rules that allow runner on 1st to stand on safety bag anyways. Ump should call time dead ball both runners should be called out.
Sept. 14, 2018
TommyPalmer1210
7 posts
Dead ball; no pitch; out @ third out @ first. Play.
Sept. 14, 2018
Nancy Allen
Men's 55
1080 posts
lb16 and TommyPalmer1210, well I would agree, and I have called the out on first many times for that, but that is no longer the rule in SSUSA; it is in other associations. Once the batter/runner reaches first base, it becomes a continuous whole base for both offense and defense. I suspect that I might have been part of the reason that it was changed because I had a team from up north that I called out a few times for standing on the orange. That is actually a joke because if I recall correctly, it was changed for the safety of the runner. Of course my counterpoint would be (NA opinion only) that if it is for safety, that we need an orange bag at third because more people seem to get hit at third than first, but I do not feel strongly enough about it to suggest a rule change and doubt if anyone else would actually agree with me. Dave could tell you exactly what year it changed and the details. It would take me more research to find it. He is very organized and could put his finger right on it.

So assuming that the runner at first is standing on the orange, dead ball, and the runner at third is out.

BJ, could you state this more concisely for me? Copy/paste is not working on my computer today for some reason. It is under 2.3, C, note 4.
Sept. 14, 2018
TommyPalmer1210
7 posts
Curty states, "Both runners vacate their positions while pitch is in the air" (into foul territory.) Must they not be on the base until the ball is hit or crosses the plate? If I'm reading correctly, (which might be questionable) both runners left early; therefore they each are out, in my opinion. I understand about he safety base.
Sept. 14, 2018
Nancy Allen
Men's 55
1080 posts
TommyPalmer1210, that is why I said assuming that he is on the orange bag. curty made a point of it; so I don't know for sure. Now if he is totally off the bag during mid-pitch, yes, he is out and dead ball.
Sept. 14, 2018
B.J.
438 posts
as Nancy stated the bases are merged once the batter reaches 1st base...and yes runners must hold the bag until the ball is hit or crosses the plate.. if a runner leaves early the umpire should call dead ball DURING the pitch.. also curty the umpire should not call no pitch or time out if the runner fails to take the bag after attaining it.. the umpire should give a verbal "play ball" then allow the pitch and then call dead ball runner is out
Sept. 14, 2018
Nancy Allen
Men's 55
1080 posts
BJ, thank you. You always make it simple.

curty, was my assumption correct when you said that the runner on first base was in foul territory that he was on the orange bag?
Sept. 14, 2018
TimMcElroy
315 posts
It's Friday afternoon. Surely you people have more exciting things going on in your lives?
Sept. 14, 2018
Nancy Allen
Men's 55
1080 posts
Tim, it is really slow here at work for a change. Now if there were softball games, I would be outside. Hey, what are you doing on here? Actually we are all just trying to sub for Dave during one of the busiest times of the year.
Sept. 15, 2018
B.J.
438 posts
tim...lol I'm resting.. played at 9 and umpired at 11.. now what's ur excuse
Sept. 17, 2018
curty
Men's 60
162 posts
yes, Nancy, he was in foul territory, toeing the bag, but leaning back. On the pitch he switched feet, so as to get motion forward. my initial point was as many have stated- off the base before hit or crossing plate= out, but discussion centered around player safety. At least one should have been out, as batter can't hit both lines at once!
Sept. 17, 2018
B94
Men's 50
138 posts
Unless the runners are leaving so early it's blatantly obvious in a single umpire system (especially with the runners at first and third base)it is doubtful this will ever be called. The umpire is focused on the pitcher, pitch height, etc all through the middle of the diamond. Now in a two man system it's a different story...
Sept. 17, 2018
Nancy Allen
Men's 55
1080 posts
curty, if he was toeing the bag at first even on the foul side, he is good in SSUSA. You said that he switched feet. If he did that mid pitch, then, yes, he is off the bag and is out. Now, as far as being on the orange bag, if it is any other organization than SSUSA, the runner is probably supposed to be out for not touching the white bag. The one off of third is definitely out.

As B94, only if the umpire sees it as you said, and you are right that it is tough to catch both. Third base is often more in my line of vision since most pitchers are right handed.
Sept. 18, 2018
curty
Men's 60
162 posts
umpire declared dead ball DUE to runners off base " as soon as he realized it happened." It was 2 man system but base ump saw nothing. you can bet he was aware after the spat! Also, our orange bag is separated from primary base about a foot for safety. Runner on first was trying to get a running start on the pitch.
Sept. 18, 2018
Nancy Allen
Men's 55
1080 posts
curty, thank you for the details. I have never seen an orange bag detached like that. I recently did a World Series, and there were no orange bags. At home that only happens in college ball. I am guessing as you describe it unless there are special league rules that the runner on first would be an out, only a guess since I don't know the specific rules that you are playing under. So getting an early start means that he was between the white and orange mid pitch?

That is ridiculous on the part of the base umpire. They should have at least had the out at first if applicable in your league. Thank goodness that the plate umpire was aware. It is not cool having a partner that wants to just stand there and look pretty.
Sept. 19, 2018
Wayne 37
Men's 60
460 posts
Nancy is right It was changed in 2017. Not sure I would be looking to call an out on somebody who was just changing feet on the base during the flight of the ball.

Unless somebody just wants to complain about it, a simple warning is sufficient at such time. It's not like they are leaving the base early to get an advantage.
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